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For the guy just trail riding out riding for fun it doesn't matter.... for the guy who views racing just slightly less important than eating, needing twice the displacement to achieve comparable lap times is embarassing.
People in the 450 class rarely ride those things aggressive...
Doesn't the sport need interests and viewers to grow?
I'm positive if the field were on 250cc smokers in the premier class the racing would be that much more exciting. Guys wouldn't have to have their bikes so precisely dialed in. They would be riding them super aggressive, wide open. I believe the top 8 guys would just be running the bikes to the limit much like restrictor plate racing.
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"If you and I play a round of golf and you tell me that your handicap is 15 strokes - and you beat me by 25 strokes, we need to readjust the game. I was willing to give you enough strokes to make you competitive against my superior play. But the next time we play, if we ever play again, you are going to have to give me 10 strokes. Anything less than that is unfair. So, back in 1998, the AMA, with the aid of the teams, team managers and promoters, passed a rule to make the four-stroke equal to the two-stroke. Oops, their bad - they wrote a rule so out of whack that it was the equivalent of allowing Tiger Woods to hit from the ladies tees. You gotta ask, why haven't they leveled the playing field that they skewed so far to the four-stroke side?"
I remember a year or so ago, it was close to a reality, this 250/250f thing for pro's. DC probably spoke it too soon, though. We heard from him a little later, after getting our hopes up, it wouldn't happen due to the oem's already reeling from the leaded/mini's/children issues.
Today we hear "then the factories that still make and market two-strokes in America would have an overwhelming advantage."
A shame, really, because this comes from one who truly can help the 2-stroke return, via a fair shake. (we're just hoping for fair)
We now know the priority. As usual, money talks. Always has, always will. It's got nothing to do with any of the various arguments here today, does it?
FOUR STROKES = HEAVIER
FOUR STROKES = MORE EXPENSIVE
FOUR STROKES = MORE SEVERE INJURIES
FOUR STROKES = MORE DIFFICULT TO WORK ON
FOUR STROKS = TURN LIKE TURDS
FOUR STROKES = SOUND LIKE TURDS
FOUR STOKES = MORE PROFITS FOR THE MANUFACTURES, WHICH IS WHY EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM IS SO IRRATIONAL!!!!!!
It's 2011, bikes should be getting lighter, easier to ride, easier to work on. Which way is this sport headed?
tho the attack on jody wasnt necessary. jody's assesment of luongo and the usgp was spot on.
bottom line, theres a lot that needs to be fixed in mx, or the world for that matter. most of us should just go out and ride our 2t's and enjoy what little time we got on this planet cause real solutions involve very messy revolutions and lets face it, while you lemmings are full of hot air now, push comes to shove, aint nobody willing to crack an egg for any omlet.
and even the manufactures don't care if they've spent millions in R & D on 4 bangers if they are losing their ass right now (like they are)... they'll forgot all about how much they blew and get to work on 2 strokes again if they feel that's the way the trend is headed... but now they are looking straight at "should we update our 4 strokes, 2 strokes or jump hard on electrics?"..... tough choices are going to have to be made, and soon....
everyone seems to forget that the yamaha 250f was out for years before the rest, and hasnt changed a whole lot since its introduction, and it didnt win for a long time. why?
cause the best guys were still on 125's at the time.
and even when the whole field was finally forced to switch over....bubba was still KILLING them on his 125. (granted, it was probably a 144 but thats besides the point).
the best guys are going to win on a 2t or 4t. it just depends on what the oem's want to market to us the consumer.
But if that's really the primary roadblock keeping 250s from running with 250s in the pros....how freakin sad is it that our entire sport must now be rigidly molded around an infamous rule change that no longer makes sense.
I think if you really want to make a two stroke that is revolutionay and would be bought by the public in mass numbers it needs to be a 250 that isn't built for peak hp. Build one that is 40 hp and has a super flat torque curve. Make it mellow so it hooks up like a four stroke. Less power could mean a lighter rotating assembly which would make it handle even better.
These fire breathing 50 hp plus 250's may be fun to ride, but they don't hook up. Market the bike for this purpose as well. If it takes fuel injection so be it.
Traction is the key to any motorsport. They spend millions in Moto GP trying to get the bikes off the corners sooner.
but no oem is going to do such. the 2 stroke by nature is a simpler motor, makes more hp therefore is stressed less, and is more reliable as a result.
there is no comparison between the two. especially when considering that 2stroke development has been purposely stalled for about the last 50 years. no major new developments, and that isnt because the technology has reached the end of its line. its because mfg's do NOT make money off of unit sales any more than a crack dealer makes money off of selling crack pipes.
its all about the return customer. its how ford makes money off of its cars. sony off of its playstation. and your local meth dealer off of ....well.....meth.
there is NOTHING in it for the mfg to make the perfect motor.
go read the history of bombardier's E-tec motor technology. they may own the rights to it. but they didnt invent the motor design. its quite a lucky story how that awesome lil motor slipped thru the cracks and came into existence.
did you know that in thomas edisons house, the original light bulbs are still burning brite?
no tire company is going to make a tire that doesnt wear out.
no oil company is going to make oil that doesnt need changing.
no speaker company is going to make a car speaker that wont eventually blow up on you.
i could go on and on. a light bulb that doesnt burn out was mfg a looooong time ago. and it never made it to market cause their was no money in it.
that in a nutshell is what you have with the 4stroke revolution that honda is so proud of.
bingo. give that guy a cigar.
by the way back a few pages "rocket" stated no one was fighting the class structures (back then). Well there were a few of us on the amatuer side that were being shot down, and politically postured against for about 3-4 years. We tried that whole time to make what we have today, straight up CC racing in the amatuer ranks. They kept us from changing these rules long enough that by the time it happened .....................it was 08 and many of the brands stop selling smokers here.
I am sure the plan today by the oem's is simple, outlast their customer. 10 years from now,... what 20 year old will even know what a smoker is?
ask a kid at the track what a Maico is........they will tell you a body shop.
the shame of it is, we can go buy 15 different friggin 500cc ATV's, colors, drivetrains, etc, but when we go to buy an off road race bike the major oem's say nope this is our product. We have seen how great that works for them.
and if ever the chinese make a better product, put together a good parts process......well honestly do I care if the bike is built in japan or china? It isn't built here so what the hell is the difference..........................IN FACT much of the stuff being sold is being built for the big oem's in china, south africa, etc.
I don't give two craps what happens in pro. It's going to be driven and marketed by the people who pay the bills. Those OEM's dictate direction and thats the facts. thankfully those types of problems have a harder time in the amatuer side of things as it's more diverse.
All it will take is another OEM, lets say Suzuki, or Kaw to bring back in limited form the 125, & 250 smokers. Yamaha gets full retail plus, why wouldn't it be a smart idea?
By the way. Yamaha & Ktm are the smartest ones of the bunch here, they are simply building brand loyalty. How many of you ride pretty much what you loved to ride as a kid? How many kids can smoothly transistion on a Honda? But the Yamaha? ttr, to the yz types. 50cc, all the way to 450cc with many choices. Locally around here there is a ton of blue. good business in my opinion.
Pit Row
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1243138/Still-glowing-strong-10…
The night is black, without a moon.
The air is thick and still.
The vigilantes gather on
The lonely torchlit hill.
Features distorted in the flickering light,
Faces are twisted and grotesque.
Silent and stern in the sweltering night,
The mob moves like demons possesed.
Quiet in conscience, calm in their right,
Confident their ways are best.
The righteous rise
With burning eyes
Of hatred and ill-will.
Madmen fed on fear and lies
To beat and burn and kill.
They say there are strangers who threaten us,
Our immigrants and infidels.
They say there is strangeness to danger us
In our theatres and bookstore shelves,
That those who know what's best for us
Must rise and save us from ourselves.
Quick to judge,
Quick to anger,
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand.
That line in bold might be one of my favorite song lyrics of all time. But I think most won't get it.
Fellow racers, the four-stroke is no more planned obsolescence than the two stroke ever was. (It wasn't). Those of us who currently keep the sport afloat spend no more maintaining the new four-stroke than our old two stroke. Some spend way more, but they are the minority.
The cost of professional MX has become more expensive, but MX wasn't professional enough before, and its pretty good now. Amateur car racers don't expect to be able to walk into their dealerships and buy a Formula1 car. Why should we?
I'm thankful that I can walk into my dealer and plop down 10K to own and race my four-stroke and frankly I don't care if the guy on the line next to me is on a two-stroke or four-stroke.
But professional racing needs rules, equity and homogeneity, and professional sport won't survive with stupid rules and classes and a bunch of obviously different machines on the track against each other at the same time.
The last thing we need is a rule that would allow MA800 or more likely, KR194, to line up on a KTM250SX next to the PC boys. For one, it would kill Mitch, and really, no one wants that.
If you think you're so smart, go make your own lightbulbs. When you've got that sorted come back to us with a better solution.
Supercross on a professionel level can exist without lot's of sold bikes/tracks/dealers etc.
Motocross can't.
Motocross used to be huge in the 80' and 90's. That's why there are som many delaers and tracks in every little village. Normal familys could afford having a kid who raced mx.
Normal familys can't put 10k on an new bike. A bike that is very hard to sell when it's used, and if it has an engine failure it cost 4k to fix it.
The pro scene is only alive because of a few sponsors (KTM, Energy drinks, Teka and a few more) It's not very solid because they can't sell what the riders race it's to expensive for normal familys.
If you can't see this put our sport in a very dangerous position you are blind and very shortsighted!
Shit, at one time way back when,Yamaha sold 10,000 YZ125's a year. The most popular class ever in the history of MX.
How many total 'pokers do they sell in a year?
..........and I also believe that if you are going to criticize something you better be ready to provide a solution. Basically what you already said. ^
I did it because i loved riding my XR350R more than my CR125R in '87. My CR125 was a great racing machine but my XR350 was a dream to ride.
I killed the 2 stroke when I bought an XR400 in '99 after a year on the terrible CR250. Then KTM helped me in my genocide of the 2 stroke and released the oh so good 400 that joined my African stable in 2000. Soon after the YZ429 sat next to the orange bike. Those bikes were telling me something I didn't want to acknowledge at the time.
In 2004 I was still trying to convince myself that the KX250 I was riding on the Illinois mx tracks t was better for me, that the riding was fun and all. But every time I rode a 4-stroke, things were easier, smoother, less tiring.
In 2006 I bought my CRF450 and never had a better bike before. Oh yes, my '87 CR125 still has a special place in my heart and memory, I was good at the time, we won stuff together and it made it a memorable one, but as I grew old I hated riding the 250 2-strokes, it scared me more than the 4 strokes.
I killed the 2 strokes because I wasn't alone, I was one lost in hundreds of thousands of riders who made the switch, across continents. It had nothing to do with racing, nothing to do with who was winning SX or MX, it was just easier, more comfortable, for us to ride and race them. We loved our first modern 4 strokes.
We, you, sent a strong message to the manufacturers when they looked at their sales at the end of '05, '06, '07...
You want to change things back and reversed what you all started and finished? Stop buying MX bikes for the next 3 years
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/YOU-ASKED-FOR-IT-MOTOCROSS-ACTI…
Post a reply to: Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes