I hate having to create another thread on this but all others have gotten out of hand and aren't actually looking at what happened. Specifically referring to the 450 event, here's exactly what happened, and I would say the same if it had been any other rider in this situation.
With exactly 3:37 remaining in the race (after Hunter had already passed the finish line), the official brings out the red cross flag. As you can see in the pictures below, when Eli took off from the small double, the flag was not out yet. As he starting to go up the face of the finish, the flag is still not fully unfurled (notice this all happened in the same second)
Eli and Kenny both do a double take over the finish line to see if they really saw a red cross because it was too late for them to back out of the jump when they saw it:
As you can see in that last image above, by the time Kenny looks back, the flag is already put away again! The flag came out at race timer mark 3:37 and was put away again by 3:36, which is why Coop (who would've had plenty of time to see it) still jumps the finish.
The rules clearly state that they assume the rider saw the flag, so not having enough time to see it is not an excuse. HOWEVER, there are two key caveats here? 1. The rule applies to when the flag is displayed, not when the official starts reaching for the flag or starts bringing it out, once displayed, which didn't occur until tomac was already on the face of the finish. 2. All of these rules are under the discretion of the referee, which accounts for whether a rider had reasonable time to react in a safe manner.
This was an obvious screw-up by the official but it really doesn't look like either Eli or Kenny had a reasonable chance to react.
So what are we supposed to do with all this tar and feathers?
The AMA stilled screwed up by not putting the flag out in time for Tomac and immediately retieving it. Almost as if they screwed up to begin with.
I can see where the AMA were coming from now because of this, thank you. I'm still out on the 250 one man IDEK.
Agree
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if the flag wasn’t out for Hunter, why did he slow down, the gap close, then he gets straight back up to speed and stretches it back out?
I saw another picture, I thought of Webb behind Eli with a red cross flag... Maybe a separate incident?
There has to be a better way, These guys need more than a 1/4 second to react.
headed up a rutted jump face, I am not looking to the side of the track.
They are looking over their right shoulder over the jump. The flagger was on their left.... Im not so sure they were looking for the flag?
The situation in 450 is much more understandable... The 250 issue is still straight up bogus.
The flag was out well before Eli got there. It was already out before Hunter even reached the finish that’s why he rolled the finish line double. So Hunter had enough time to see it and roll, but Eli didn’t?
Not sure if those clips might not be just waving of the flag…but regardless…it didn’t affect the finish. Just potential points. The 250’s on the other hand…Jo got screwed and lost at least $30k in bonus$ along with a 6 point swing. The light was on and the rules are clear. Only excuse is word vomit that is NOT in the rule book that no rider has confirmed they knew about.
Also…not that it really matters rule wise…but the yellow flag was waiving for all of those 250 riders in the corner before the do not jump lights. (I won’t reinforce the panicked made up name of lead in lights). That is supposed to be a “hey…attention…something may be up” caution flag.
Also…we know from Brown’s own comments that he did not see the lights(that video has confirmed were on for him)…so now if the same thing happens and then only sees a Red Cross flag he will think “I didn’t see lights…I can jump”…god save the Asterisk med crew, and downed rider, that has a 230lb bike with a 170lb rider come down on his head on the back side of that huge jump. AMA…get ready to be sued into oblivion. A lawyer will have a fucking field day with this. Maybe then we can get a competent governing body.
You can see the cross flag in the top picture where you say it isn’t.
White with red right next to the structure.
Your second picture shows it much clearer because it shows a lot more of the top of the jump.
Is the ama starting to pay people to come on here and just make chit up?
some of you really think eli or kenny would intentionally jump a red cross flag? if tomac or kenny told me they didnt see it. i'd believe them. both of em have more integrity than 99% of the members here thats for sure. i'm over it
i think flaggers/lights screwed joe over but i dont know if theres an actual fix that could make everyone happy no matter what they do or how they handled it. outside of making changes so it dont happen again.
I don’t think anybody is saying that. I absolutely don’t think they would have jumped if they saw it….but it was there. I also don’t think Jett saw it when he WAS penalized, nor Chase when he WAS penalized…or the dozens of others. (Friese might jump on purpose)…. Racing is hard and guys will miss flags sometimes. It’s often that the flagger’s suck and don’t help. Nobody is saying they saw it and said screw that….but that has never saved riders from penalties in the past. I’m actually more pissed at the 250 deal because it changed the outcome.
Regardless ….it is now MORE difficult for riders to know what to do as they may see twice as many “signals” and then have to think what it might mean…and is that one of the spots with “lead in lights??…all while racing at the speed of heat on a rutted up difficult track against some of the best riders in history. Easy…
I’m dying, well done sir!
If you side with the AMA's mental gymnastics on this decision, I want whatever you're smoking mate.
They didn't follow their own rule book, and didn't penalise people for breaking the rules.
Your posted pics prove the flag was out with time to react.
Not seeing the flag has never been, and can’t be an excuse. You know why right?
If that pic is correct no it’s not enough time, also with some one right behind you, makes a massive risk of getting landed on screw that.
But I’m saying that it must’ve been put earlier for Hunter to see it ?
It’s been a shit rule for ages, so hard for them to take all that info while racing.
Pit Row
No one is saying the flag should’ve been out or it was an ideal presentation of the flags. They are saying precedent has been set that if the flag is out you will be penalized if you jump. Doesn’t matter if you saw it, doesn’t matter if there is still someone there, it doesn’t matter. Now they are saying you have to make that decision while racing if you think you see someone down on the backside of a jump. That is the issue, and the AM A got it wrong.
And when that happened Honda argued that riders didn’t have enough time to react, the lights where introduced to give the rider more time to react per Hondas complaint.
Sorry but just like the AMA, you got this one wrong.
You say the official brought out the red cross flag after Hunter went past and Eli didn’t have time to react- no the flag was out for Hunter and he rolled the finish as a result. By your own screenshots, Hunter was over four seconds ahead, which means there was plenty of time for Eli and co to see it too.
You say Eli and Kenny both look back at the flag as they go over the jump- but they’re looking right while the flag was on their left.
You say the flag was withdrawn after Kenny but before Coop- no Webb got the flag too.
All four riders also got waving yellows in the sweeper before the finish as a warning.
The AMA’s explanation doesn’t fly.
Don’t take my word for it though, go back and watch, it’s all on the broadcast.
I think this official may have been doing the hokie pokie with the red cross flag.
Look closely at this picture and then go back and watch it again. What do you see in the red circle, on its way back to the tower, that's supposed to be inside the blue box where the rider's line of sight is?
Also, yes they were looking for the flag. I don't know how much riding you do but when you're going over a jump that naturally whips your bike to to the right, it's easier to look back over your right shoulder WITH the rotation than over your left shoulder. Try angling your upper body like Kenny's is in this photo and see how far you get trying to look over your left shoulder. Now try it over your right shoulder.
Finally, the red cross flag is supposed to be static, not waived, to avoid being confused with the white flag. In the very first 2 pictures you see the flag unfurling, which either means he was waving it, or he put it out mistakenly for Hunter, realized he screwed up and quickly put it back out for the next riders, which explains why the lights were never activated. Either way, this is clearly a big screw up by the flaggers and my guess is, for the 450s, they decided that it didn't affect the outcome of the race and it was their mistake so they shouldn't penalize the riders.
No idea bout the 250s though, that's pretty clear cut.
I am still of the humble opinion that...the AMA sucks. The AMA is like a toll booth...worthless fkng organization that does little or nothing except collect dues.
100% correct^^. I just went back and watched just this. That flagger was waiving the yellow vigorously when Hunter went by and quit waving it before Eli and company went by. Red Cross out for all of them and pulled down as Webb passed the flagger…so he “should” have seen it also. That yellow may have been the difference in Hunter seeing it? Who knows? Sucks for Eli, KR, and Webb….but I feel they should have got the penalty. It HAS to be a strict rule and penalty…even if it is largely the flaggers fault. No gray area. The AMA has made a nightmare of a mess from this.
I agree with this. The 450 one is definitely gray and would have been controversial either way. No problem how they called that one.
250s I just dont get it. Cant believe the AMA made the call, let alone are doubling down and standing behind it.
#flaggate
In the past it hasn't mattered if it was by mistake or not. This is a rule that strict enforcement should be the standard. Yah it sucks to be penalized for a flaggers mistake. But it would be worse to have a racer jump when there is a legit red cross flag because they thought it might be a mistake.
I realize the AMA doesn't care about setting a precedent and that it seems to not really matter for them. In the name of safety they need to be consistent with the penalty . EVEN if the flag or light is out by mistake. So that riders know that its a no go, never jump under red cross. Otherwise just get rid of it and red flag every race instead of having the local red crosses. Giving the riders more to look for makes them less safe. They should have to roll no matter what if that is what the rule states.
Hunter himself said ( on the Pulp monday show) the lights were on for the double and then the Red cross on the finish. If that is the case than it must have been out in plenty of time for Kenny and Eli to see.
The flag being out was just how Jett was penalized in the past. If the lights were added to help the riders see the flag. The flag should be the end all , penalty no matter what. I can understand if the lights are a warning that there may be a red cross flag that should be in the rule book. It would make sense. But in the rulebook it says the red cross OR lights. Not and.
I completely agree - IF the flag had stayed out. I think they made it even worse because it seems they put it out for Hunter, then pulled it back in then right back out as Eli was coming up to the jump and pulled it back in before they even landed. Seems like they screwed up so bad that they decided it wasn't fair to penalize the racers (even though they sort of penalized HL through lost time).
By the way, the flag itself was already withdrawn by the time Brown came by in the 250s (maybe even when Jo came by). Only the lights were on.
One of the main problems are the flaggers. Bunch of randoms, highly possible volunteer moto dad's who don't know exactly what they're doing. They've always been an issue. I'm not even criticising them directly, it's the AMA who seemingly refuses to run a competent operation. Employ and train proper flaggers who all know what to do consistently. If they were actual employees we might actually get some accountability and improvement.
Hunter rolled it. So the flag must of been already out....
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