Shorty's 350 does not look that fast

DBerg
Profile picture for user DBerg
Posts
361
Joined
10/10/2010
Location
San Marcos, TX US
DBerg 12/14/2010 12:19am
12/14/2010 12:19am
I remember reading an interview with Mike Gosselaar where he said outdoors they basically see how much power they can get out of the bike and then back it off just enough to make sure it's reliable enough to make it a whole race (a very simplistic description I'm sure) and that RC's outdoor bike was putting down well over 70 HP, and with that in mind I'm sure the 350 would be at a HP disadvantage. I mean the comments in promoting the 350 was very centered in being easier to ride and that it wouldn't wear you out as quickly. I suppose they could mean that the power is more linear, but realistically it probably just means that there isn't as much power. That having been said, in the same interview with Gosselaar, he said something along the lines of RC's SX bike being much more detuned and that the power wasn't actually that much more than stock. It was more about power characteristics to optimize traction. So it's not like the 450 have the same HP figures and the riders just use less, but rather they just have less HP in general to make the bike more rideable. In that case, the 350 should be able to put out a reliable HP number to match the 450's and shouldn't struggle off the start.
Also, I'm sure Short didn't make his choice based solely off of how it felt compared to the 450. I'm sure they did lap times, timed different sections and starts, and really diagnosed a lot of different aspects to see which would be the best platform to build off of. This last part is purely assumption since I have no idea how they went about deciding on which bike to ride, but I have hard time believing that a multimillion dollar program with arguably the top team manager in moto working with elite professionals would make a decision that could have huge implications for everyone without doing very extensive research.
2strokerider 12/14/2010 2:50am
12/14/2010 2:50am
DBerg wrote:
All this talk about RC and Everts and who's the best sand rider, etc. You know what that's accomplished? Making me miss those 2 guys. AMA...
All this talk about RC and Everts and who's the best sand rider, etc. You know what that's accomplished? Making me miss those 2 guys. AMA vs. FIM, US vs. Europe, and all that crap aside, those 2 guys were arguably the fastest guys to ever ride a motocross track. One thing I always loved about them is that everything about them is completely opposite on the track like their physical size and riding style, but off the track they were both class acts, showed an obvious love of the sport, and didn't bitch and complain. I think if we could of had a couple/few seasons with them racing an outdoor series against each other it would have been a lot like the Canard/Pourcel battles of this year, and speaking of that Canard and Pourcel... those guys going 2 motos back to back, battling like crazy, swapping the lead, and setting the fastest lap times in the last couple of laps only to finish a mere second or 2 apart... racing like that gives me a moto boner. A motorection if you will. If we get racing like that this year in SX with 4 or 5 guys rather than just 2 or 3, I won't care what anyone is riding or who wins.

Also, forgive me for my off-topic rant if it doesn't make sense. This is finals week, I have 2 coming up shortly, I just chugged a 5 hour and sipping on a rockstar, so I'm feeling a little jittery and chatty. If you find this post annoying, just be glad you aren't here to talk to me face to face, haha. Smile

BRAAAAAAAAP
it was a shame that they never did a full series together- like you said they were polar opposites in the way they rode the bike but both were amazing riders in their own way!
I wouldnt agree about comparing canard to RC though and pourcel to everts, i think canard is much more smooth and efficient tha RC was- RC was all aggression (the reason why he had to be superhumaly fit) everts on the other hand used to stand everywhere and control the bike with his legs- pourcel is smooth but doesnt stand anywhere near as much as everts and is much less rigid on the bike- he just seems to flow with it (more like JMCool
sebastien pourcel rides more like everts than christophe!
and the canard pourcel battles were epic- hopefully we will see the same in the 450 class next year, i cant wait!
DBerg
Profile picture for user DBerg
Posts
361
Joined
10/10/2010
Location
San Marcos, TX US
DBerg 12/14/2010 9:19am
12/14/2010 9:19am
Ya I wasn't comparing their styles, I guess I did kind of word that as if I were though, but I just meant that I really enjoyed the racing this past summer and would have liked to see some racing like that with Everts and RC. Perhaps RC wouldn't have won as many or beaten everyone by half a track length + as much had Everts come to race in the US for a couple seasons. But ya they all definitely have different styles.
seniordude11 12/14/2010 10:24am
12/14/2010 10:24am
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to pull the plug on the deal at the moment. It's hard to pull the plug when there are bikes that have already been manufactured that need to be sold. If we were still in the era of works bikes (pre-homologation), we wouldn't even be having this cocnversation because the bikes would be in the dustbin already.

KTM should blow out the 350s they've produced as quickly as possible and move on.

The Shop

See All »
Rewindcaz
Profile picture for user Rewindcaz
Posts
862
Joined
1/20/2010
Location
SLC, UT US
Rewindcaz 12/14/2010 11:06am
12/14/2010 11:06am
seniordude11 wrote:
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to...
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to pull the plug on the deal at the moment. It's hard to pull the plug when there are bikes that have already been manufactured that need to be sold. If we were still in the era of works bikes (pre-homologation), we wouldn't even be having this cocnversation because the bikes would be in the dustbin already.

KTM should blow out the 350s they've produced as quickly as possible and move on.
Yeah .. 350's are not the future, they need to figure that out and move on.
ATKpilot99
Profile picture for user ATKpilot99
Posts
10422
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI US
ATKpilot99 12/14/2010 11:21am
12/14/2010 11:21am
seniordude11 wrote:
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to...
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to pull the plug on the deal at the moment. It's hard to pull the plug when there are bikes that have already been manufactured that need to be sold. If we were still in the era of works bikes (pre-homologation), we wouldn't even be having this cocnversation because the bikes would be in the dustbin already.

KTM should blow out the 350s they've produced as quickly as possible and move on.
Rewindcaz wrote:
Yeah .. 350's are not the future, they need to figure that out and move on.
Maybe maybe not . We'll have to wait and see how things go in its second season. I don't understand the logic in ignoring the 450 though. My guess is the 350 will remain in the lineup and be a great vet bike or bike for the average rider who wants more than a 250 but less than a 450, and KTM will end up going back to a 450 as their pro bike. But who knows ?
NP301
Profile picture for user NP301
Posts
2669
Joined
1/19/2010
Location
Keene, NH US
NP301 12/14/2010 12:16pm
12/14/2010 12:16pm
Rewindcaz wrote:
I don't think theres any arguing that the 350 is not as fast as the 450... That's just not even possible. I think that the 350...
I don't think theres any arguing that the 350 is not as fast as the 450... That's just not even possible.

I think that the 350 can have advantages, possibly enough that winning a supercross is realistic, but I think more often than not it's going to be at a disadvantage. Sure, you could put someone like Stewart on it and he'd win, but that doesn't mean the bike is better. I feel bad for Shorty, I really do.

People seem to be in denial about how Alessi went from Outdoor National threat contender last year (dominating even Reed) to a barely top-10 guy on the 350. The bike is terrible. AC doesn't count, comparing his bike to Alessi's is a joke.
Freddy wrote:
Barley top 10? He even won a heat. how many riders won a heat this year? So you have been into the ktm pit too, can...
Barley top 10? He even won a heat. how many riders won a heat this year?
So you have been into the ktm pit too, can you please tell us the difference between the factory ktm's in europe and the factory ktm's in the us too?
They suck
seniordude11 12/14/2010 12:34pm
12/14/2010 12:34pm
seniordude11 wrote:
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to...
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to pull the plug on the deal at the moment. It's hard to pull the plug when there are bikes that have already been manufactured that need to be sold. If we were still in the era of works bikes (pre-homologation), we wouldn't even be having this cocnversation because the bikes would be in the dustbin already.

KTM should blow out the 350s they've produced as quickly as possible and move on.
Rewindcaz wrote:
Yeah .. 350's are not the future, they need to figure that out and move on.
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Maybe maybe not . We'll have to wait and see how things go in its second season. I don't understand the logic in ignoring the 450...
Maybe maybe not . We'll have to wait and see how things go in its second season. I don't understand the logic in ignoring the 450 though. My guess is the 350 will remain in the lineup and be a great vet bike or bike for the average rider who wants more than a 250 but less than a 450, and KTM will end up going back to a 450 as their pro bike. But who knows ?
Few vet racers will buy a 350 if they think it will mean a disadvantage on the track. That is the reason that 2 strokes died. We race because we're competitive -- and we don't want to go to the track feeling we're off the back before the gate drops. It's the same for the 50+ novice as it is an AMA pro. If we weren't all seeking a performance advantage, even a couple of horsepower, we'd all be running stock exhaust instead of dropping $800-$1000.
Faceaz
Profile picture for user Faceaz
Posts
1364
Joined
7/28/2008
Location
Glendale, AZ US
Faceaz 12/14/2010 1:46pm
12/14/2010 1:46pm
seniordude11 wrote:
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to...
A few years from now, KTM will realize that the 350 was a bad idea. Maybe they realize it now but don't have the heart to pull the plug on the deal at the moment. It's hard to pull the plug when there are bikes that have already been manufactured that need to be sold. If we were still in the era of works bikes (pre-homologation), we wouldn't even be having this cocnversation because the bikes would be in the dustbin already.

KTM should blow out the 350s they've produced as quickly as possible and move on.
Rewindcaz wrote:
Yeah .. 350's are not the future, they need to figure that out and move on.
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Maybe maybe not . We'll have to wait and see how things go in its second season. I don't understand the logic in ignoring the 450...
Maybe maybe not . We'll have to wait and see how things go in its second season. I don't understand the logic in ignoring the 450 though. My guess is the 350 will remain in the lineup and be a great vet bike or bike for the average rider who wants more than a 250 but less than a 450, and KTM will end up going back to a 450 as their pro bike. But who knows ?
I'm betting KTM is very happy with the 350 so far. They haven't gotten this far by competing against the big 4, they've gotten this far because of niche manufacturing. They have soooo many more models than the big 4, models where they have virtually no competition. The 350 is the same way, doesn't matter if it's the furture or not, right now they have 100% of the 350 sales. For every rider wanting more power than a 250, but not as much as a 450, there's only one choice for mx.

There was a great post earlier about gear reduction. A main reason the 250 is not too far off 450's is because they rev higher, so they can have a larger gear reduction which increases their rear wheel horsepower. That should make the 350 shine, because it revs higher like a 250 & can have more gear reduction. There's no doubt the 450's have quite a bit more hp, but I think if you looked at crank hp & rear wheel hp, you would see the gap close a bit.
Adam43
Profile picture for user Adam43
Posts
3307
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
WF
Adam43 12/14/2010 2:17pm
12/14/2010 2:17pm
DBerg wrote:
I remember reading an interview with Mike Gosselaar where he said outdoors they basically see how much power they can get out of the bike and...
I remember reading an interview with Mike Gosselaar where he said outdoors they basically see how much power they can get out of the bike and then back it off just enough to make sure it's reliable enough to make it a whole race (a very simplistic description I'm sure) and that RC's outdoor bike was putting down well over 70 HP, and with that in mind I'm sure the 350 would be at a HP disadvantage. I mean the comments in promoting the 350 was very centered in being easier to ride and that it wouldn't wear you out as quickly. I suppose they could mean that the power is more linear, but realistically it probably just means that there isn't as much power. That having been said, in the same interview with Gosselaar, he said something along the lines of RC's SX bike being much more detuned and that the power wasn't actually that much more than stock. It was more about power characteristics to optimize traction. So it's not like the 450 have the same HP figures and the riders just use less, but rather they just have less HP in general to make the bike more rideable. In that case, the 350 should be able to put out a reliable HP number to match the 450's and shouldn't struggle off the start.
Also, I'm sure Short didn't make his choice based solely off of how it felt compared to the 450. I'm sure they did lap times, timed different sections and starts, and really diagnosed a lot of different aspects to see which would be the best platform to build off of. This last part is purely assumption since I have no idea how they went about deciding on which bike to ride, but I have hard time believing that a multimillion dollar program with arguably the top team manager in moto working with elite professionals would make a decision that could have huge implications for everyone without doing very extensive research.
Seems ridiculous, but no, they haven't even given that 450 a chance.

KTM is pushing the 350 hard.

I think it's gonna bite em in the ass.
robkinuk
Profile picture for user robkinuk
Posts
4266
Joined
5/16/2007
Location
Ashbourne GB
robkinuk 12/14/2010 2:42pm
12/14/2010 2:42pm
Wow, what a bunch of short sited 450 zombies. Just because Mike Alessi has a bad year, career meltdown in 2010, it's all the bikes fault, yet Tony Cairoli dominates the GP's so you claim his bike is so much better than Mikey's.
You think KTM would really provide Alessi with inferior equipment in what they consider to be their most important sales market?????

Look at the facts, Alessi's career has peaked he's on a downward spiral and will go down as the most hyped rider never to win a major AMA title, whilst Cairoli grows in stature evey year and keeps adding to his world championship tally.
evo
Profile picture for user evo
Posts
15
Joined
1/22/2010
Location
AU
evo 12/14/2010 3:34pm
12/14/2010 3:34pm
robkinuk wrote:
Wow, what a bunch of short sited 450 zombies. Just because Mike Alessi has a bad year, career meltdown in 2010, it's all the bikes fault...
Wow, what a bunch of short sited 450 zombies. Just because Mike Alessi has a bad year, career meltdown in 2010, it's all the bikes fault, yet Tony Cairoli dominates the GP's so you claim his bike is so much better than Mikey's.
You think KTM would really provide Alessi with inferior equipment in what they consider to be their most important sales market?????

Look at the facts, Alessi's career has peaked he's on a downward spiral and will go down as the most hyped rider never to win a major AMA title, whilst Cairoli grows in stature evey year and keeps adding to his world championship tally.
I had a 09 and 10 model 450SXF with SXS shock full Ackro system etc....both great bikes, i race Vets and and are top 10 national level (40+ ) and top 3 state level.

I now have a 350 and I am definitley faster on this bike than my 450SXF over a full moto on a rough track (approx 2 secs per lap), the bike is awesome and will be a better package for a lot of riders, particuarly Vets under 90kg. Obviously its not right for every one though...
aggiemoto99
Profile picture for user aggiemoto99
Posts
304
Joined
11/12/2006
Location
San Antonio, TX US
aggiemoto99 12/14/2010 4:21pm
12/14/2010 4:21pm
It's the exact bike KTM needed to make to suit their style as a company.

Just like their 200 two stroke, 150 two stroke, 300 two stroke etc...

And as many have found it goes a heck of a lot faster for THEM around a race track.

I have spent some time riding one lately - and back to back to a 450 in stock form it feels slow.
But it turns great, feels relatively nimble, and gets over any obstacle you ask of it at 99 percent of the tracks around the country.
It doesn't yank your arms off and ends up turning just as good a laps if not better in many cases.

It will not replace the current 450 but it sure as heck will stand side by side and I think time will prove that.

The 500 was phased out for good reason! The 450 is much more tractable - but nowadays the power they make in stock form is truly more than anyone but a national pro needs. Not to say WANTS - but needs.
Flatliner
Profile picture for user Flatliner
Posts
4104
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
Flatliner 12/14/2010 4:26pm
12/14/2010 4:26pm
FlaNard wrote:
Mike Alessi killed the 350 for me. Maybe Short can prove otherwise, but I doubt it. And as people have said a million times, AC's 350...
Mike Alessi killed the 350 for me. Maybe Short can prove otherwise, but I doubt it. And as people have said a million times, AC's 350 is a far different bike then what Alessi and Short have to ride.
Mike is a big bore rider though, he's not the type of rider to rev the 350 like it needs to be, at least not all the time.
jemcee
Profile picture for user jemcee
Posts
12713
Joined
8/11/2008
Location
AU
jemcee 12/14/2010 7:06pm
12/14/2010 7:06pm
so most of you guys know way more about building, selling and racing motorcycles than the KTM bike manufacturer?

good to know..
cause I'm sure KTM wouldn't have thought of all this and just thought they'd give it a go...
If anyone other than 99% of the pros, think that it won't have enough power for them to be competitive against 450's, well they're just kidding themselves

for real
2strokerider 12/15/2010 2:15am
12/15/2010 2:15am Edited Date/Time 12/15/2010 2:24am
the ktm 350 is a GREAT bike. How many of you have actually ridden one? I have, and i thought it was fantastic. Its like a more powerful 250f, cairoli has dominated the gps this year- just because alessi has had a bad year you cant say the 350 is a bad bike!

You put dungey on a 350 and he would still win.
If musquin/ roczen decide to race the 350 next season i would certainly not bet against them
jamma10
Profile picture for user jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
jamma10 12/15/2010 2:37am
12/15/2010 2:37am
evo wrote:
I had a 09 and 10 model 450SXF with SXS shock full Ackro system etc....both great bikes, i race Vets and and are top 10 national...
I had a 09 and 10 model 450SXF with SXS shock full Ackro system etc....both great bikes, i race Vets and and are top 10 national level (40+ ) and top 3 state level.

I now have a 350 and I am definitley faster on this bike than my 450SXF over a full moto on a rough track (approx 2 secs per lap), the bike is awesome and will be a better package for a lot of riders, particuarly Vets under 90kg. Obviously its not right for every one though...
Shhhhh.

To post in this thread you may purely only speculate, dont come on here spouting valid first hand experience... Whistling

Pit Row

See All »

Post a reply to: Shorty's 350 does not look that fast