Hearing Prado already had a shock blow

DonM
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11/9/2025 10:54am
Press516 wrote:

Hard to comprehend how this continues to happen.  Totally backs Vialle’s reluctance to ride…. And definitely a little Chase vindication.  

Not even the same issue….they were having fading issues not spring or clip failure….which is obviously what happened to Prado’s bike…

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Press516
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11/9/2025 11:17am
Press516 wrote:

Hard to comprehend how this continues to happen.  Totally backs Vialle’s reluctance to ride…. And definitely a little Chase vindication.  

DonM wrote:

Not even the same issue….they were having fading issues not spring or clip failure….which is obviously what happened to Prado’s bike…

Yes, shock issues continue to happen…. Fade, spring retainer, whatever.  WP has some issues that need to be cleaned up.  They had riders skipping motos and now riders with potential mental distractions, concerned about shock failures.  

12
philG
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11/9/2025 2:58pm
mxaniac wrote:
I can valve any of the shocks to cavitate and fail. It's not the machining. AER were about impossible to valve properly for a 2T, Xact...

I can valve any of the shocks to cavitate and fail. It's not the machining. AER were about impossible to valve properly for a 2T, Xact was the WP solution. Nothing magic here, the tuning point where the KTM system performs best is outside of the parameters the fluid can handle.

You can build anything to fail, and if you know, what causes it, then surely you should know that and be aware of it.  My point was more that you should not be that close to the edge of the working envelope, that you could adjust it to be outside of that envelope enough to fail. 

I didnt have to build the stuff we made, but after some degree level cretin decided he could do better than Ohlins with an unlimited supply of someone elses money , and designed a damper that was so complicated with multiple pistons contained within a bigger centre piston, that you could not build two dampers the same without selectively assembling every single part.  

We needed to do a 'revalve' which meant that some parts needed remaking, and it cost $35000 , with Ohlins it was $20 of shims. 

When you are having failures that nobody else has, you must know what you are doing differently.  

And blaming 'quality issues' for when design drops the ball, is all to common.. When things are designed to fail, they fail, and they fail often. 

 

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mxracer666
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NE Iowa, IA, USA
11/9/2025 3:49pm
aees wrote:

I can see Eli moving to KYB asap. No way he risks a championship with these issues.

Pop Shmoke wrote:
I thought the kyb internals was for the forks, can you do it to the shock too? Or do you mean put an actual kyb shock...

I thought the kyb internals was for the forks, can you do it to the shock too? Or do you mean put an actual kyb shock on the bike, is that even possible?

Plenty of KYB and even Showa A-Kit shocks available out there for KTM's and forks as well.

1

The Shop

mxaniac
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Airway Heights, WA, USA
11/9/2025 4:34pm
mxaniac wrote:
I can valve any of the shocks to cavitate and fail. It's not the machining. AER were about impossible to valve properly for a 2T, Xact...

I can valve any of the shocks to cavitate and fail. It's not the machining. AER were about impossible to valve properly for a 2T, Xact was the WP solution. Nothing magic here, the tuning point where the KTM system performs best is outside of the parameters the fluid can handle.

philG wrote:
You can build anything to fail, and if you know, what causes it, then surely you should know that and be aware of it.  My point...

You can build anything to fail, and if you know, what causes it, then surely you should know that and be aware of it.  My point was more that you should not be that close to the edge of the working envelope, that you could adjust it to be outside of that envelope enough to fail. 

I didnt have to build the stuff we made, but after some degree level cretin decided he could do better than Ohlins with an unlimited supply of someone elses money , and designed a damper that was so complicated with multiple pistons contained within a bigger centre piston, that you could not build two dampers the same without selectively assembling every single part.  

We needed to do a 'revalve' which meant that some parts needed remaking, and it cost $35000 , with Ohlins it was $20 of shims. 

When you are having failures that nobody else has, you must know what you are doing differently.  

And blaming 'quality issues' for when design drops the ball, is all to common.. When things are designed to fail, they fail, and they fail often. 

 

Every shock and fork used today can easily have the shim stacks arranged such that you get cavitation. The problem seems to be that with the system they have, for the riders to get the performance they desire, it ends up being out of the functional range. Neither WP, nor any other manufacturer can stop technicians from doing that. KTM does use different linkage ratios compared to the other brands, and they made frame changes recently. My guess is to fix the problem they have to change the frame or swingarm, against the production rule, or make a significant design change to the shock such as shaft diameter or piston diameter. It doesn't sound like the current shocks they have access to matches the requirements of the system. From what little we know it doesn't sound like a quality problem, and nothing about the tuning parameter ranges is unique to this design. It sounds like the current shock that is very similar to KYB and Showa designs doesn't match the system needs. The design is so similar to Showa and KYB it wouldn't surprise me if they had the same problem when used on this bike under the conditions the factory guys are using them.

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1
rogers
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Anaheim, CA, USA
11/9/2025 6:05pm

Damn Chinese parts! 😆

2
11/9/2025 6:44pm

Why didn't we have this problem in 2004?

 

Racermike222
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Surprise, AZ, USA
11/9/2025 7:13pm
mxaniac wrote:
I can valve any of the shocks to cavitate and fail. It's not the machining. AER were about impossible to valve properly for a 2T, Xact...

I can valve any of the shocks to cavitate and fail. It's not the machining. AER were about impossible to valve properly for a 2T, Xact was the WP solution. Nothing magic here, the tuning point where the KTM system performs best is outside of the parameters the fluid can handle.

philG wrote:
You can build anything to fail, and if you know, what causes it, then surely you should know that and be aware of it.  My point...

You can build anything to fail, and if you know, what causes it, then surely you should know that and be aware of it.  My point was more that you should not be that close to the edge of the working envelope, that you could adjust it to be outside of that envelope enough to fail. 

I didnt have to build the stuff we made, but after some degree level cretin decided he could do better than Ohlins with an unlimited supply of someone elses money , and designed a damper that was so complicated with multiple pistons contained within a bigger centre piston, that you could not build two dampers the same without selectively assembling every single part.  

We needed to do a 'revalve' which meant that some parts needed remaking, and it cost $35000 , with Ohlins it was $20 of shims. 

When you are having failures that nobody else has, you must know what you are doing differently.  

And blaming 'quality issues' for when design drops the ball, is all to common.. When things are designed to fail, they fail, and they fail often. 

 

mxaniac wrote:
Every shock and fork used today can easily have the shim stacks arranged such that you get cavitation. The problem seems to be that with the...

Every shock and fork used today can easily have the shim stacks arranged such that you get cavitation. The problem seems to be that with the system they have, for the riders to get the performance they desire, it ends up being out of the functional range. Neither WP, nor any other manufacturer can stop technicians from doing that. KTM does use different linkage ratios compared to the other brands, and they made frame changes recently. My guess is to fix the problem they have to change the frame or swingarm, against the production rule, or make a significant design change to the shock such as shaft diameter or piston diameter. It doesn't sound like the current shocks they have access to matches the requirements of the system. From what little we know it doesn't sound like a quality problem, and nothing about the tuning parameter ranges is unique to this design. It sounds like the current shock that is very similar to KYB and Showa designs doesn't match the system needs. The design is so similar to Showa and KYB it wouldn't surprise me if they had the same problem when used on this bike under the conditions the factory guys are using them.

I can guarantee you that every shock being made by the techs is being pressure balanced before being tested by the rider. The only way that shock is getting on the bike at this point with the issues they have had. It really is a weird issue because for the most part between the factory shock, kit shock, and OEM they haven't had any huge design change. Just geometry changes with the frame and linkage. But I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have changed that with a linkage by now. From what I have seen it looks like manufacturing issues but seeing as Europe doesn't have the same problems, that doesn't make much sense. Whatever the issue is has to be stemming from being allowed on the bike at cavitation limits, or material failure. I will say that Prados failure looks like a spring failure and is different from what we saw over the summer. 

2
11/9/2025 7:40pm
philG wrote:
You can build anything to fail, and if you know, what causes it, then surely you should know that and be aware of it.  My point...

You can build anything to fail, and if you know, what causes it, then surely you should know that and be aware of it.  My point was more that you should not be that close to the edge of the working envelope, that you could adjust it to be outside of that envelope enough to fail. 

I didnt have to build the stuff we made, but after some degree level cretin decided he could do better than Ohlins with an unlimited supply of someone elses money , and designed a damper that was so complicated with multiple pistons contained within a bigger centre piston, that you could not build two dampers the same without selectively assembling every single part.  

We needed to do a 'revalve' which meant that some parts needed remaking, and it cost $35000 , with Ohlins it was $20 of shims. 

When you are having failures that nobody else has, you must know what you are doing differently.  

And blaming 'quality issues' for when design drops the ball, is all to common.. When things are designed to fail, they fail, and they fail often. 

 

mxaniac wrote:
Every shock and fork used today can easily have the shim stacks arranged such that you get cavitation. The problem seems to be that with the...

Every shock and fork used today can easily have the shim stacks arranged such that you get cavitation. The problem seems to be that with the system they have, for the riders to get the performance they desire, it ends up being out of the functional range. Neither WP, nor any other manufacturer can stop technicians from doing that. KTM does use different linkage ratios compared to the other brands, and they made frame changes recently. My guess is to fix the problem they have to change the frame or swingarm, against the production rule, or make a significant design change to the shock such as shaft diameter or piston diameter. It doesn't sound like the current shocks they have access to matches the requirements of the system. From what little we know it doesn't sound like a quality problem, and nothing about the tuning parameter ranges is unique to this design. It sounds like the current shock that is very similar to KYB and Showa designs doesn't match the system needs. The design is so similar to Showa and KYB it wouldn't surprise me if they had the same problem when used on this bike under the conditions the factory guys are using them.

I can guarantee you that every shock being made by the techs is being pressure balanced before being tested by the rider. The only way that...

I can guarantee you that every shock being made by the techs is being pressure balanced before being tested by the rider. The only way that shock is getting on the bike at this point with the issues they have had. It really is a weird issue because for the most part between the factory shock, kit shock, and OEM they haven't had any huge design change. Just geometry changes with the frame and linkage. But I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have changed that with a linkage by now. From what I have seen it looks like manufacturing issues but seeing as Europe doesn't have the same problems, that doesn't make much sense. Whatever the issue is has to be stemming from being allowed on the bike at cavitation limits, or material failure. I will say that Prados failure looks like a spring failure and is different from what we saw over the summer. 

How different is the shock damping between Supercross and MXGP?

Racermike222
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74
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Location
Surprise, AZ, USA
11/9/2025 7:58pm
mxaniac wrote:
Every shock and fork used today can easily have the shim stacks arranged such that you get cavitation. The problem seems to be that with the...

Every shock and fork used today can easily have the shim stacks arranged such that you get cavitation. The problem seems to be that with the system they have, for the riders to get the performance they desire, it ends up being out of the functional range. Neither WP, nor any other manufacturer can stop technicians from doing that. KTM does use different linkage ratios compared to the other brands, and they made frame changes recently. My guess is to fix the problem they have to change the frame or swingarm, against the production rule, or make a significant design change to the shock such as shaft diameter or piston diameter. It doesn't sound like the current shocks they have access to matches the requirements of the system. From what little we know it doesn't sound like a quality problem, and nothing about the tuning parameter ranges is unique to this design. It sounds like the current shock that is very similar to KYB and Showa designs doesn't match the system needs. The design is so similar to Showa and KYB it wouldn't surprise me if they had the same problem when used on this bike under the conditions the factory guys are using them.

I can guarantee you that every shock being made by the techs is being pressure balanced before being tested by the rider. The only way that...

I can guarantee you that every shock being made by the techs is being pressure balanced before being tested by the rider. The only way that shock is getting on the bike at this point with the issues they have had. It really is a weird issue because for the most part between the factory shock, kit shock, and OEM they haven't had any huge design change. Just geometry changes with the frame and linkage. But I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have changed that with a linkage by now. From what I have seen it looks like manufacturing issues but seeing as Europe doesn't have the same problems, that doesn't make much sense. Whatever the issue is has to be stemming from being allowed on the bike at cavitation limits, or material failure. I will say that Prados failure looks like a spring failure and is different from what we saw over the summer. 

How different is the shock damping between Supercross and MXGP?

Very different, doesnt mean the shock wasnt pressure balanced before being given for testing. Stiffer valving, higher nitrogen pressure to compensate. 

3
EAmato88
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Egg Harbor City, NJ, USA
11/10/2025 3:57am
mx691 wrote:

Broken spring? Or does a shock compress if it ”blows” regardless if spring is intact?

Either broken spring or its a failed air shock

11/10/2025 8:57am

KTM needs to suck up their pride and put on KYB's already. Pretty bad when all your top guys the past 2 contracts run KYB on their practice bikes.

2
PRM31
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Northern, VA, USA
Fantasy
11/10/2025 9:15am

I agree they need to fix the issues. As for forks, didn't they bring new factory forks last year? I thought ML indicated they were mostly all using them in MXGP and eventually RJ had them? 

Also, what fork internals does Eli have? They were not Cone Valve externals and the caps were sort of like the 6500/CV. Did not look like KYB. The nearly complete lack of mention by the media is odd. I believe Lewis mentioned in his pod he was using a new WP fork. Not any detail though. 

ohh_454
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11/10/2025 10:53am

I watched Prado at the test track this morning for about 20 min and didn’t see him blow a shock 😁😆😆


IMG 3719

3
SEEMEFIRST
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Arlington, TX, USA
11/10/2025 11:03am
ohh_454 wrote:
I watched Prado at the test track this morning for about 20 min and didn’t see him blow a shock 😁😆😆

I watched Prado at the test track this morning for about 20 min and didn’t see him blow a shock 😁😆😆


IMG 3719

They finally ditch the WP?

1
ohh_454
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11/10/2025 11:12am
ohh_454 wrote:
I watched Prado at the test track this morning for about 20 min and didn’t see him blow a shock 😁😆😆

I watched Prado at the test track this morning for about 20 min and didn’t see him blow a shock 😁😆😆


IMG 3719

SEEMEFIRST wrote:

They finally ditch the WP?

Fox Racing Shox with WP stickers I believe. 

1
SEEMEFIRST
Posts
14127
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Location
Arlington, TX, USA
11/10/2025 11:15am
ohh_454 wrote:
I watched Prado at the test track this morning for about 20 min and didn’t see him blow a shock 😁😆😆

I watched Prado at the test track this morning for about 20 min and didn’t see him blow a shock 😁😆😆


IMG 3719

SEEMEFIRST wrote:

They finally ditch the WP?

ohh_454 wrote:

Fox Racing Shox with WP stickers I believe. 

🤣

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