2026 450 Shootout

mxaniac
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10/22/2025 10:53am
Luxon MX wrote:
It absolutely matters. The laws of physics don't just turn off because it's a dirt bike...And of course being in shape makes a huge difference. There's...

It absolutely matters. The laws of physics don't just turn off because it's a dirt bike...And of course being in shape makes a huge difference. There's a few posts in this topic that seem to frame this as an either or scenario, which is very much isn't. You can lose weight, get in better shape, re-valve your suspension, whatever else, AND get a lighter bike. All will make you faster. Debating what is more important is fine, but arguing that the weight of the bike is irrelevant just isn't right. 

10 pounds off a 230 pound bike is more than 4%. That's significant! Think about what you're doing when hitting a whoop section, when the bike gets kicked out, when scrubbing a jump, when going through ruts, etc.; you're basically wrestling this 230 pound machine the whole time you're riding it. If you're wrestling a 220 pound machine instead, it gets that much easier, plus it accelerates and brakes faster. And the faster a rider you are, the more important this is as you're effectively wrestling it harder. If you're just rolling around in a parking lot, weight doesn't matter much. But if you're really pushing it around a moto track, it makes a big difference. 

Timo wrote:
I didn't mean it turns off the laws of physics, I meant that the difference in effort required between them is insignificant in an amateur level...

I didn't mean it turns off the laws of physics, I meant that the difference in effort required between them is insignificant in an amateur level, even in a 2+ hour race if the rider is in decent shape. I'd argue that rider physical shape, weight placement, engine character, and chassis comfort are more important than +/- 15lbs total bike weight. I'll also take a bike that weighs more that I don't have to touch the spokes in 200 hours of smashing into rocks and roots. Shoot, my cheater tires I put on my bike probably added 10lbs...

15 lbs of the difference between a 125 and a 250 2T, some of that difference is rotating mass but regardless the difference is night and day.

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mxaniac
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10/22/2025 10:57am
3strokemx wrote:

Losing 1lb of rider weight = dropping 3.14lb of bike weight.  I can't explain the physics but it's true if you're over 30 years old.

Saz wrote:
Rider weight is such a big factor. Im 240 pounds I matched speed with a guy who was probably 100 pounds lighter than me on the...

Rider weight is such a big factor. Im 240 pounds I matched speed with a guy who was probably 100 pounds lighter than me on the same jump on us both on 450s. He cleared it, I came up short maybe 10 feet. When Im on my 250f Im wringing the life out of it, especially here at altitude to clear anything. 

Trying to get back to my fighting weight of 220 anything lower and my life is miserable trying to maintain.

I used to race against this really heavy guy, but here was an exceptional seat bouncer. I'd swear his tires only touched the ground once in a while.

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Luxon MX
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10/22/2025 11:47am
GPrider wrote:
but it is just as important as to where that 4% is on the bike. 10 lbs, or 4% hanging off the rear up high is...

but it is just as important as to where that 4% is on the bike. 10 lbs, or 4% hanging off the rear up high is different than in the center of the bike down low. So the theory is not apples to apples. I don't think 4% is relevant. I will take the 4% low and centered over 2% up high and back. Your statement is true on paper, but in the real world its really minor and probably not noticeable to any of us if the weight is distributed properly. 

Yes, weight distribution matters a lot. We could get into the weeds on this stuff with rotating mass, polar moment, etc., but the core statement of lighter is better is still true regardless of all that. Sure, we can dream up a scenario where a bike has really heavy wheels and a super light engine/chassis and that lightweight bike might be worse than a "normal" heavier bike. But that's an absurd scenario that just doesn't exist. 

Weight centralization is really important as that's what makes a heavy bike feel light. Compare that bike, which has a lower polar moment of inertia, to another bike weighing the same, but with less centralized mass. The first bike will feel lighter and be easier to ride. That's important. But they'll both take the exact same amount of power to accelerate or decelerate (ignoring rotating weight differences between the two, and that's another conversation, in which lighter is still better). 

Power is directly proportional to mass (P=m*a*V). A lighter bike takes less power to accelerate and will always be better than a heavier bike at accelerating and braking. That bike will be faster on the start, faster exiting a corner, faster braking in the next corner, etc. all around the track. This can not be argued, it's solid physics. It's correct on paper and correct on the track. And we can easily calculate it; using the example from earlier, saving 10 lbs on a bike:

Let's assume a 240 lb bike can have 10 lbs removed from it (4.17% lighter). With a rider weight of 180 lbs all geared up, you have one bike and rider weighing in at 420 lbs and another weighing in at 410 lbs, which dilutes that weight difference to 2.4%. But, power is directly proportional to that weight difference, so the lighter bike/rider effectively has a 2.4% power increase over the other bike/rider. That's A LOT! Would you argue an exhaust or ECU that adds 2.4% more power evenly across the entire power curve isn't significant or noticeable? And that doesn't even take into account the benefits of less weight to rider fatigue. 

 

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10/22/2025 12:40pm
I’m surprised no one has considered how much easier/better feeling a 250f rides compared to a 450. What’s the weight difference between the ktm 250 and...

I’m surprised no one has considered how much easier/better feeling a 250f rides compared to a 450. What’s the weight difference between the ktm 250 and 450? A few lbs? If rotational mass is that noticeable, I’d feel like a lighter bike would also be noticeable. I will say how light a bike feels while riding is much more important than what the scale says 

You couldn't have said it better. There is a lot more to a bike feeling "light" on the track than just lbs on a scale lol. Crank inertia is a huge factor with the light feeling. I dont give a shit how light you get your 450 on a scale its not going to feel like a 250.

Seriously, spending $ on Ti bolts, footpegs, axles, lighter seat foam, battery, etc seriuosly has to be one of the lowest "bang for buck" propositions for moto. 

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The Shop

mxaniac
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10/22/2025 12:47pm

If you're going to pursue shaving some pounds off the scooter, focus on unsprung mass. Wheels, hubs, axels, linkage bolts, springs etc.

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AH387
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10/23/2025 4:40am

1 thing that I found interesting was that the current-gen ('25) YZ450F felt much lighter than I anticipated,  being that I'm a 250F guy. Not sure how much of that comes at the cost of the busy front end. It searched quite a bit and almost gave the sensation that the head-nut was loose (it wasnt.) So I wonder if I were to buy a '26 with the calmer chassis, and have the sag 102-105ish, if the stability/calmness would return at the expense of that "450" feel also returning? Not sure what the one I rode was set at but was set for a bigger guy. The new bike supposedly feels really connected, which I like (in theory.) But I did appreciate how the '25 almost didn't feel like a 450 in many cases, since it flicked around so easy.

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10/23/2025 5:09am
yak651 wrote:

The only shootout worth considering was ML’s when he purchased all the bikes…of course the OEMs shut that down in a hurry…

rstaichi wrote:

I don’t get it, how can they shut it down if he’s buying them?

mattyhamz2 wrote:
I don't think they were very happy with it because they couldn't make their little adjustments here and there to make sure ML was riding the...

I don't think they were very happy with it because they couldn't make their little adjustments here and there to make sure ML was riding the absolute best version of the production bike that they have. IIRC, it was a bit of a big deal. In my opinion, it was the best shootout we've ever got from any media source and I was really hoping we'd get to see more of it.

That doesn't answer how they managed to stop him from doing it. If he's buying the bikes he can do WTF he likes with them, whoever he wants. Did they threaten to stop sponsoring/advertising on the website?
sandman768
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10/23/2025 5:26am

Light weight? Flickable? This is why Professional125 and myself ride these….IMG 4276 1

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10/23/2025 6:14am
rstaichi wrote:

I don’t get it, how can they shut it down if he’s buying them?

mattyhamz2 wrote:
I don't think they were very happy with it because they couldn't make their little adjustments here and there to make sure ML was riding the...

I don't think they were very happy with it because they couldn't make their little adjustments here and there to make sure ML was riding the absolute best version of the production bike that they have. IIRC, it was a bit of a big deal. In my opinion, it was the best shootout we've ever got from any media source and I was really hoping we'd get to see more of it.

That doesn't answer how they managed to stop him from doing it. If he's buying the bikes he can do WTF he likes with them, whoever...
That doesn't answer how they managed to stop him from doing it. If he's buying the bikes he can do WTF he likes with them, whoever he wants. Did they threaten to stop sponsoring/advertising on the website?

I believe it was something along those lines and not helping with bikes in the future, but it’s been a while since all of that so I can’t fully remember. I do remember the OEM’s were not happy with it and it basically wasn’t going to happen again. 

mxaniac
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10/23/2025 9:22am
sandman768 wrote:
Light weight? Flickable? This is why Professional125 and myself ride these….

Light weight? Flickable? This is why Professional125 and myself ride these….IMG 4276 1

I was really surprised with the 2022+ CRF250R, they are much of the same. I've got an 05 CR125 and 22 CRF250 in my garage my son owns and I've ridden then both back to back along with my 2018 TC250 and 22 CRF450. That's the only 250f I've every enjoyed.

Saz
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10/24/2025 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 10/24/2025 3:46pm
GPrider wrote:

Definitely wasnt the result I was expecting after watching it. I'm a bit curious about a couple details, they mentioned they have the 26 TF-450X which hasn't been released yet as far as I know. It doesn't even have a price on Triumph US website, also Keefer mentioned the new KTMs aren't out until November either. 

Not a super huge deal to me personally, I figure maybe they got some early. I'm thinking about the Triumph anyway and was happy to hear some thoughts about it from a varied group.

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