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Write each of the OEMs a letter and tell them what those new two strokes should sell for.
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Let's say you are Yamaha.
The two-stroke line immediately sells out every year. They have not had to invest much if anything in the line for around 5 or more years. Initial development and tooling costs are long since recouped. One can assume it is at least profitable.
The four-stroke line required more investment, tooling and labor but those initial costs begin to get recouped. Add on the higher sticker price, the higher sales volume and the much higher parts and repairs ( which are needed more frequently than the two-stroke line ) and it would appear to carry a higher profit margin.
"Do you and others really believe that the OEMs produce mass quantiles of a product that make the company less, than another product that is cheaper to build, and in more demand by the consumer? "
Think of it this way. How stupid would you be to drop a product that sells out every year to a loyal customer base and makes you an easy profit? And does not appear to interfere with sales of your flag ship product. ( In general, two-stroke buyers want a two-stroke and are not interested in the four-stroke line and vice-versa. )
How stupid would you be to drop such a product line ... and send that loyal customer base over to the competition ... such as KTM?
Yamaha and KTM have both their bases covered and share control of the two-stroke market. To me, they appear to be the smart players.
Why isn't imported cheese less expensive? or imported beers or wines? Casio G-Shocks? the list goes on and on. Here's today's economics lesson:
Its 2007 I am selling product A in the USA for $6299 and getting back yen roughly 735K yen.
Now it's 2011 and I am selling product A in the USA for $7150 and getting back roughly 583K yen or roughly 80% as much as I used to even though you think you are "paying more for the same product".
If you weren't my customer I would probably say STFU and feel lucky that I still will bother to sell you anything...
Where do you think the China knock offs with terrible tolerances came from? The OEMs sold the old worn out molds to them.
Then don't post ignorant crap in the name of SCIENCE...
YZF
For example their two most equivalent bikes in hp would be the 250SX vs. the 350F.
MSRP on the 2 stroke is $6,599. It's $8,499 on the 350F.
In case your math skills are poor that is a 29% premium for the 350F and a lot more than that once you add in taxes., repair, resale, etc...
The 250F also cost considerably more than the 250SX even though it's not nearly as much bike as the 250SX.
So which idiot was claiming that 2 strokes cost the manufacturers the same amount to manufacturer and sell?
....as it does this head and powervalve? Really?
There are not left over cheap four strokes because people want two strokes and are tired of four strokes. There are leftover bikes of all kinds right now. Sales suck right now.
I like the fact that everyone wants a cheap entry level bike to get people back into racing and then they complain that no one wants to race a 125 because it is not competitive.
I asked Honda and Suzuki both years ago why they wouldn't build a 65. They said that is a small pie and the numbers work out splitting the pie 2 ways. If we split that pie 3 ways, nobody makes money. Right now KTM and Yamaha have the two stroke pie to themselves. Maybe Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki don't want a piece.
If Honda comes back into the two stroke market I don't see it being a entry level cheap bike. It will have the latest coolest of everything and it will be pricey. Will it sell? Of course, it's the latest trickest thing out. The majority of racers are a sucker for the latest and greatest.
Our local series A class has on average about 12 to 16 guys in it. This year it went to a run-what-you brung set of rules. 250 class was a true 250 class and the 450 class was open. I didn't like the rules and in the end it didn't look much different. The riders that missed some races this year due to bike failures and unable to get them back before the next round, 2 KTM 250 two strokes and one KTM 350.
Pit Row
The resale on an RD or RZ350 or a TZR250/RGV250 is really high!
Nobody want's one of those fart bikes if they can have a superior 2 Stroke bike to ride on the road!
4 stroke dirt bikes are OK too, they're just really boring compared to the 2 stroke alternatives. They kind of make it feel like you are always riding in mud or sugar sand, even when your not. They feel cloddy... Not so much when you are on the gas hard, because they do have amazing power, it's more in the way they feel at all times other than that.
Also, it's amazing how the KTM150SX outpowers the 250SXF even though it's so much smaller. It's not actually a 150 even, it's only 143.6cc and the dirt rider test said it would walk away from the 250SXF in the taller gears on the straights. That's really a miserable showing for the oversized 4 stroke FOOPER that's supposed to be so much more powerful.
Some people prefer the power characteristics of a FOOPER... and that's OK to each his own. But the superior machine is easy to spot.
And that's the reason why people try so hard to keep 2 strokes out of professional racing, because when they are both out there in front of the public, the 2 stroke wins hands down with people, and that doesn't line up with and provide the most benefit to the commercial interests at this time.
Didn't you ever wonder why Chad and Ricky and EVERYONE switched to FOOPERS for Supercross 06???
In 05 with all the top guys other than Kevin Winham on 2 strokes, Ricky, Chad and James literraly layed waste to everyone. Chad and Ricky lapped everyone all the way up to 3rd place at San Diego and the top 4 stroke finisher was KDub, who was lapped and way outside the top 3 without a crash by the way...
Then along comes 06 and all of a sudden, everyone's on a FOOPER... Huh?... What??...
Had the 06 FOOPERS suddenly improved exponentially? Nope... but something HAD changed. Something no one mentioned at the time, because it's all part of the big sales presentation, not part of bike racing. The major difference between 05 and 06 wasn't the bikes, or the rider's tastes. It was that in 05 you could get factory pay to ride a 2 stroke, and in 06 you couldn't. They got MC to do little TV interviews that year where he said things like, "It's great to ride the fabulous Honda CRF450. Excellent, Great, Super, Light, Airy, Shiny, Supercalafragilistic....." "Gush!" And I also remember some weird things in magazines from that time where they would have Ricky saying things like, "So we're going to look like we're going slower, but we're actually going faster..." and other assorted nonsense, and the tracks dumbed down considetably right in step with the wholesale switch to 4 strokes. A lot of planning went into that sales pitch.
What it came down to was that no amount of marketing could get everyone aboard a FOOPER while the top FOOPER rider, a very fast and well-respected pro in his prime on a roughly x2 oversized bike, was getting lapped by guys on 2 strokes OR being dusted off pretty bad by them on the regular. The Marketing guys or sales department guys were probably thinking to themselves, "Wait just a minute!... No one who sees Chad Reed lap all the way up to 3rd on a YZ is going to want a new 450-FOOPER they're gonna want a YZ250! OR...(cue spooky organ music) they might just keep the one they have already!!!..." So, all the big manufacturers apparently decided that pro racing needed to be "All (4 stroke/FOOPER), all the time..."
"Out of sight, out of mind!" was the apparent, yet unspoken 4 stroke promotional battle cry... And it worked on lots of people. I've read that 06 was the year when sales parity was finally reached.
Fortunately, not everyone's fooled so easily.
Thanks,
Jim
With the 4 stroke thay had a clean slate, and marketing had maybe a 5 year plan where they could roll out improvements each year and hopefully regain sales as they had in the past.
Historically >cc = $$ (i.e. when was the last time or ever that a 125 MX bikes had a higher msrp than a 250 MX bike. How about a 250F vs 450F?)
The KTM 350 is an all new bike. It has more "things" than the 2 stroke. (i.e. a starter, a battery, Fuel Injection, a linkage, a new engine, a new different frame, a shitload of R&D...) Ya it's going to be more expensive its got more parts.
Why did you not compare the price difference between the 250F ($7699), 350F ($8499) and 450F ($8499)?
Better yet why didn't you compare the difference between a 150SX ($6299) and 250SX ($6599)?
If you want to relatively pay more for less go ahead buy a two stroke. In the meantime I think its a great time to take advantage of the awesome deal the OEM's are giving on the faster and easier to ride 4 strokes.
Say let me ask you, how many gunmen were on the grassy knoll and who really killed JFK?
MANUFACTURER Kawasaki
MODEL YEAR 1999
MODEL KX 250
M.S.R.P. * $5,649.00
That was almost 12 years ago
I just paid $6,700.00 for my new 2011 YZ250 2stroke
thats only $1,000 increase in 12 years.
Now that I think of it I paid $5,550.00 for My new 1998 KX250
Thats a great deal, if not then get a side job and get a new 2stroke!
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