Too bad US motocross doesn't welcome innovation

newmann
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newmann 9/14/2010 7:00am
9/14/2010 7:00am
824 Dad wrote:
In my opinion the thing that killed 2 strokes was allowing 250cc 4 strokes in the 125cc 2 stroke class and 450s in the 250cc 2...
In my opinion the thing that killed 2 strokes was allowing 250cc 4 strokes in the 125cc 2 stroke class and 450s in the 250cc 2 stroke class. To be competitive you had to have a 4 stroke and the fact the 4 stroke was easier to ride made the decision pretty easy.

By the time everyone figured what it cost to keep a new age hi-tech 4 stroke running the 2 strokes had been discontinued for the most part, end of story.

GrapeApe wrote:
I agree with this. People "spoke with their wallets" and bought 4 strokes because they were new and different. I think for many the novelty wore...
I agree with this. People "spoke with their wallets" and bought 4 strokes because they were new and different. I think for many the novelty wore off and by that time it was too late to go back, the 2 strokes were pretty much gone. I'm not naive enough to think 2 strokes are going to make a comeback in pro racing, but I would love to have the option to go down to my local dealer and buy one.

However, I also agree with Matthes regarding his original point. Newmann's posts are a beating. What is wrong with "Hey, look at this cool bike" as opposed to "Too bad US motocross doesn't welcome innovation"? While it does have a cool factor, there is nothing innovative about that bike.
I didn't make up the thread title just to poke a stick in the proverbial hornets nest. It is a cool bike, but the fact that the big 4 and the AMA with their homologation rules prevent "cool" bikes from showing up on the scene over here. Remember when Cobra showed up with a "cool" bike and certain people went apeshit crazy over whether Bud had proof that enough of them existed? It's been going on a long time. And while I admit that particular bike isn't all that innovative, the fact that "cottage industries" can show up and compete is the point I was trying to get across.

I'm sure some here think I'm occasionally taking a jab at DC, but nothing could be further from the truth. I personally feel he's the best man for the job over here. Just wish things could be aimed at a little more fairness for the 2 strokes and that the 125 could make a coomeback. The 125 comeback in particular, as I feel it bridges the gap best from the 85's to the premier classes. Not to mention the racing was always great.
dano
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dano 9/14/2010 7:21am
9/14/2010 7:21am
aFACEdismembered wrote:
U MAD
Matthes wrote:
Nah, I'm not mad. I just reached a point where I know what Newmann is all about and that's totally cool. It's his right to talk...
Nah, I'm not mad. I just reached a point where I know what Newmann is all about and that's totally cool. It's his right to talk about whatever he wants to but whenever he posts, it's some conspiracy theory on why the OEM's (and promoters) don't want 2-strokes anymore.

The OEM's would sell you pink scooters with tassles if everyone would buy them, it's all about the $, the ecconomy doesn't allow them to tie up assembly lines with two-strokes that "might" sell and the consumers have spoken with their wallets. When OEM's offered 2 and 4 strokes, the consumers chose the thumpers.

I just made a decision in my life about 20 min ago that I'm not going to be lured to click on any "too bad US mx doesn't welcome innovations" threads on Vital MX because, if it's from Newmann, it will be about 2-strokes and I have to say, I already feel better!
Tbteam wrote:
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former...
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former $20k a year butt-boy flailing away on the coattails of a talented rider, evolving into a $20k a year internet radio host flailing away on the coattails of whatever industry person will throw you a bone once in a while.

I liked you shtick for a long time. It's getting old. You don't know everything, you are relatively unimportant in "the industry". What exactly have you accomplished outside this relatively unknown sport that we love?

I'd like to add that I spell checked the word "butt-boy" above and it added the hyphen. That's funny.
TBTeam does the smack down
88sdad
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88sdad 9/14/2010 7:28am
9/14/2010 7:28am
In 1974 I worked as a bag boy at the local market, I was 14. I received $100 back from my tax return and used that as a down payment on a Suzuki TM125, it cost $750.

It seemed like everybody had a dirt bike back then.

Suns_PSD
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Suns_PSD 9/14/2010 7:52am
9/14/2010 7:52am
If some of these guys put half as much effort into purchasing a new KTM 2 stroke every couple of years for about $6K as they do talking about "the resurgence" the 2 stroke would make it's comeback.

Go buy a bike from the only top 5 manufacturer still developing these things! KTM!

If the demand is there, they will build them!

The Shop

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WFO
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WFO 9/14/2010 8:01am
9/14/2010 8:01am
The thing that is killing the sport right now (besides the politics) is the economy.
No one was complaining about the cost of 4 bangers until the economy took a dump.
If you think it's bad now wait til 2011 and see what the SX/MX gates look like (especially the lites class). There is NO money out there to race.
Take away all the widgets in the 250 class and watch it grow. That said, do we really think that a business like Pro Circuit could survive if they made a change like that? Better yet, ask yourself why this change hasn't happened yet, since everyone Knows it would be best for the sport.
Look at the top 5........in points in the lites class! Buffett vs Payton.
Time + Effort= Reward $$$, that said, you would be better served getting your son into golf and then college.
Crash82
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Crash82 9/14/2010 8:06am
9/14/2010 8:06am
aFACEdismembered wrote:
U MAD
Matthes wrote:
Nah, I'm not mad. I just reached a point where I know what Newmann is all about and that's totally cool. It's his right to talk...
Nah, I'm not mad. I just reached a point where I know what Newmann is all about and that's totally cool. It's his right to talk about whatever he wants to but whenever he posts, it's some conspiracy theory on why the OEM's (and promoters) don't want 2-strokes anymore.

The OEM's would sell you pink scooters with tassles if everyone would buy them, it's all about the $, the ecconomy doesn't allow them to tie up assembly lines with two-strokes that "might" sell and the consumers have spoken with their wallets. When OEM's offered 2 and 4 strokes, the consumers chose the thumpers.

I just made a decision in my life about 20 min ago that I'm not going to be lured to click on any "too bad US mx doesn't welcome innovations" threads on Vital MX because, if it's from Newmann, it will be about 2-strokes and I have to say, I already feel better!
Tbteam wrote:
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former...
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former $20k a year butt-boy flailing away on the coattails of a talented rider, evolving into a $20k a year internet radio host flailing away on the coattails of whatever industry person will throw you a bone once in a while.

I liked you shtick for a long time. It's getting old. You don't know everything, you are relatively unimportant in "the industry". What exactly have you accomplished outside this relatively unknown sport that we love?

I'd like to add that I spell checked the word "butt-boy" above and it added the hyphen. That's funny.
Good post, I like Newman's threads. I can't believe someone would think they are important enough to start a thread about who's threads they aren't clicking anymore, pretty funny right there.
drmarkr
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drmarkr 9/14/2010 8:21am
9/14/2010 8:21am
aFACEdismembered wrote:
U MAD
Matthes wrote:
Nah, I'm not mad. I just reached a point where I know what Newmann is all about and that's totally cool. It's his right to talk...
Nah, I'm not mad. I just reached a point where I know what Newmann is all about and that's totally cool. It's his right to talk about whatever he wants to but whenever he posts, it's some conspiracy theory on why the OEM's (and promoters) don't want 2-strokes anymore.

The OEM's would sell you pink scooters with tassles if everyone would buy them, it's all about the $, the ecconomy doesn't allow them to tie up assembly lines with two-strokes that "might" sell and the consumers have spoken with their wallets. When OEM's offered 2 and 4 strokes, the consumers chose the thumpers.

I just made a decision in my life about 20 min ago that I'm not going to be lured to click on any "too bad US mx doesn't welcome innovations" threads on Vital MX because, if it's from Newmann, it will be about 2-strokes and I have to say, I already feel better!
Tbteam wrote:
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former...
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former $20k a year butt-boy flailing away on the coattails of a talented rider, evolving into a $20k a year internet radio host flailing away on the coattails of whatever industry person will throw you a bone once in a while.

I liked you shtick for a long time. It's getting old. You don't know everything, you are relatively unimportant in "the industry". What exactly have you accomplished outside this relatively unknown sport that we love?

I'd like to add that I spell checked the word "butt-boy" above and it added the hyphen. That's funny.
Now that's some funny shit!!
Matthes
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Matthes 9/14/2010 8:39am
9/14/2010 8:39am
I post in a thread that I'm not going to click on any thread started by Newmann because he beats the same topic to death and then someone comes in, makes personal insults towards me, makes fun of how little money I make in a year and calls me unimportant?


Welcome to Vitalmx!


You must be so proud of yourself.
lucero10x
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lucero10x 9/14/2010 8:42am
9/14/2010 8:42am Edited Date/Time 9/14/2010 8:45am
Tbteam wrote:
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former...
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former $20k a year butt-boy flailing away on the coattails of a talented rider, evolving into a $20k a year internet radio host flailing away on the coattails of whatever industry person will throw you a bone once in a while.

I liked you shtick for a long time. It's getting old. You don't know everything, you are relatively unimportant in "the industry". What exactly have you accomplished outside this relatively unknown sport that we love?

I'd like to add that I spell checked the word "butt-boy" above and it added the hyphen. That's funny.
you are a [deleted due to content].
TJ
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TJ 9/14/2010 8:43am
9/14/2010 8:43am
Matthes wrote:
Congrats, you've officially now reached the level of "Vital posters that I will never click on ever again because they have beat the monkey to death"...
Congrats, you've officially now reached the level of "Vital posters that I will never click on ever again because they have beat the monkey to death"

You're so boring and monotonous, do you have anything interesting to say about anything other than your agenda? Even The Rock branched out once in a while.
[color=blue]Congrats, you've officially now reached the level of "Wanna-be industrie insider that I will never click on ever again because they think they are superior to everyone else"

You're so boring and monotonous, do you have anything interesting to say about anything other than Tim Ferry? Even The Rock branched out once in a while.






Seriously, who the F are you? Step away from the mirror once in awhile and you may find love in something other than yourself. Mark is 100% correct. Your schtick is 1000 times more played out than the "I hate 4-strokes" people...//TJ [/color]
TJ
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TJ 9/14/2010 8:47am
9/14/2010 8:47am
Tbteam wrote:
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former...
Wow. If you had put that much effort into your decision making over the course of the last 10 years, maybe you wouldn't be a former $20k a year butt-boy flailing away on the coattails of a talented rider, evolving into a $20k a year internet radio host flailing away on the coattails of whatever industry person will throw you a bone once in a while.

I liked you shtick for a long time. It's getting old. You don't know everything, you are relatively unimportant in "the industry". What exactly have you accomplished outside this relatively unknown sport that we love?

I'd like to add that I spell checked the word "butt-boy" above and it added the hyphen. That's funny.
lucero10x wrote:
you are a [deleted due to content].
[color=blue]And you can take a break for a few days, potty-mouth...//TJ[/color]
ns503
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ns503 9/14/2010 8:50am
9/14/2010 8:50am
Does this mean Matthes has cred now?

Like when that rapper dude got shot that time?
kaw rider9
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kaw rider9 9/14/2010 8:51am
9/14/2010 8:51am
The passion for glory is the torch of the mind!

Yeah, I Googled it....
GuyB
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GuyB 9/14/2010 8:52am
9/14/2010 8:52am
dano wrote:
TBTeam does the smack down
Yeah, and as soon as you see TBTeam, Dano, and Dr. Mark in any thread together, you know it's a topic being discussed at Motodrivel.

Yep, it's the off-season (though we have the MXoN to go). But let's keep things civil.
Matthes
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Matthes 9/14/2010 8:56am
9/14/2010 8:56am
TJ wrote:
[color=blue]Congrats, you've officially now reached the level of "Wanna-be industrie insider that I will never click on ever again because they think they are superior to...
[color=blue]Congrats, you've officially now reached the level of "Wanna-be industrie insider that I will never click on ever again because they think they are superior to everyone else"

You're so boring and monotonous, do you have anything interesting to say about anything other than Tim Ferry? Even The Rock branched out once in a while.






Seriously, who the F are you? Step away from the mirror once in awhile and you may find love in something other than yourself. Mark is 100% correct. Your schtick is 1000 times more played out than the "I hate 4-strokes" people...//TJ [/color]
I have quite a bit to say about the races each and every weekend. Plenty of it has nothing to do with Tim Ferry so maybe you should check it out sometime.

How do you come to the conclusion that I think I'm superior to everybody by saying that I don't like newmanns threads that fool me into thinking they are about something else when they always lead back into a two-strokes are great and the oems conspired to kill them thread?

Your personal insult reply makes no sense. Please explain.
TJ
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TJ 9/14/2010 8:57am
9/14/2010 8:57am
[color=blue]Well done, kaw9. Heh...//TJ[/color]
YellowZonker 9/14/2010 9:01am
9/14/2010 9:01am
I think people are missing the point on this whole 2 stroke thing. Everybody is saying 2 strokes need to come back etc, etc, but how many of you have gone out and bought a brand new Yz250 or 250SX? Riding a 3 year old bike is not helping the manufacturer's bottom line.

What it boils down to is that the people buying a new 2 stroke are in the (very small) minority and the general riding public buys the latest, greatest 4 stroke when the time comes to buy a bike.

Changing from a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke will do absolutely nothing to sway a manufacturer to produce more 2 strokes unless people are going out and buying new and that's where this whole economy thing comes in. If you truly want to make a change, go out and buy a new KTM 250sx, otherwise sit back and stop complaining.
GuyB
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GuyB 9/14/2010 9:05am
9/14/2010 9:05am
A lot of the two-stroke threads I've seen lately are something along the lines of, "Look at this great deal I got on CL!"

Finding a great bargain is always cool. But I agree with YellowZonker. It's new bike sales that influence the manufacturers.

Pit Row

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Torco1
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Torco1 9/14/2010 9:08am
9/14/2010 9:08am
newmann
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newmann 9/14/2010 9:13am
9/14/2010 9:13am
GuyB wrote:
A lot of the two-stroke threads I've seen lately are something along the lines of, "Look at this great deal I got on CL!" Finding a...
A lot of the two-stroke threads I've seen lately are something along the lines of, "Look at this great deal I got on CL!"

Finding a great bargain is always cool. But I agree with YellowZonker. It's new bike sales that influence the manufacturers.
Then again, that says a lot about people speaking with their wallets as well. They are not falling for a 8 grand dirtbike. Funny thing about Craigslist though is you NEVER see anyone post here about the great deal they got on a 250F on CL do you?

And I'm ready to buy a couple new two strokes as soon as the 125cc class gets announced for the six rounds that the WMX isn't running at. I'm even ready to sponsor the Holeshot Award.

Maybe Matthes could step up and offer the "Recovery Award".
dehner47
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dehner47 9/14/2010 9:13am
9/14/2010 9:13am
i do agree with Matthes on "beating a dead monkey". and it does get kinda old to hear. but at the sametime, how are the OEM's going to hear the voice of the people on this topic if guys cant come on a message board and discuss or express there opinions. not like we can march into the OEM offices and tell them our beliefs and opinions. so yes i agree its getting old seeing every other topic on here about "2 stokes vs 4 strokes". but at the sametime, people need a place to voice there opinions to try and get things going in the direction that the consumer wants it too. whether thats with 2 stroke or without them.

me personally, i love em both. as long as its go wheels and moves, im all about it..

2 strokes: best for play riding..

4 strokes: best for racing..

just my opinion. now back to the arguing..
Tbteam
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Tbteam 9/14/2010 9:16am
9/14/2010 9:16am
TJ wrote:
[color=blue]Congrats, you've officially now reached the level of "Wanna-be industrie insider that I will never click on ever again because they think they are superior to...
[color=blue]Congrats, you've officially now reached the level of "Wanna-be industrie insider that I will never click on ever again because they think they are superior to everyone else"

You're so boring and monotonous, do you have anything interesting to say about anything other than Tim Ferry? Even The Rock branched out once in a while.






Seriously, who the F are you? Step away from the mirror once in awhile and you may find love in something other than yourself. Mark is 100% correct. Your schtick is 1000 times more played out than the "I hate 4-strokes" people...//TJ [/color]
Matthes wrote:
I have quite a bit to say about the races each and every weekend. Plenty of it has nothing to do with Tim Ferry so maybe...
I have quite a bit to say about the races each and every weekend. Plenty of it has nothing to do with Tim Ferry so maybe you should check it out sometime.

How do you come to the conclusion that I think I'm superior to everybody by saying that I don't like newmanns threads that fool me into thinking they are about something else when they always lead back into a two-strokes are great and the oems conspired to kill them thread?

Your personal insult reply makes no sense. Please explain.
You are missing the point, Steve. You used to be a fairly funny guy with a reasonable amount of humility, even when speaking your mind.

Now, you are a one man, industry insider, all knowing, powerhouse. It's lame now.

I could give a shit who you have deemed unworthy of your attention. Do you not understand that? Newmann is passionate about something and wants to make sure that it doesn't evaporate and become forgotten. He also is incredibly talented as a bike builder and restoration expert, and knows more about motocross from the 70's through today than 99% of the people here. I respect that. Never mind the large amount of time and effort that he has donated to helping some of the riders who have experienced unfortunate circumstances in our sport.

"I have quite a bit to say about the races each and every weekend". Jesus, can you feel any more self important?

Go rip off some more ideas from others that have proven themselves to be innovative.

Sorry Guy B, this had nothing to do with the other place.
CamP
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CamP 9/14/2010 9:36am
9/14/2010 9:36am
This thread is funny.

Let's face the facts. Motocross is a blue collar, working class sport. Most wealthy people usually steer their children away from dirt bikes and towards college. Marketing $8-9k race bikes is questionable if you know the demographics. Newman's Mugen is a perfect example of how cost and sales are linked. Back in 1980 that Mugen cost $3,500 when a typical 125 cost $1,100. Mugen only sold about 15 ME125's, but the manufacturers sold more regular 125's that year than all the dirt bikes they sell today combined. Why? Because $3,500 in 1980 money is the equivalent to $9k today and $1,100 in 1980 is the equivalent to $3,000 today. Blue collar Americans couldn't afford $3,500 bikes in 1980 and they can't afford $9k bikes today.

If motocross is going to be anything other than a small fringe sport that only a handful of elite people participate in, the cost of entry level racing has to be reduced so that it is still accessible to blue collar America. Sometimes in life you have to step back before you can move forward and motocross is at a place where the powers that be need to take a good hard look at cost controls.
offspring22
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offspring22 9/14/2010 9:38am
9/14/2010 9:38am
Hey VitalMX,

My name is Matthes, and I hate every single one of you. All of you are fat, retarded, no-lifes who spend every second of their day looking at pictures of two strokes. You are everything bad in the world. Honestly, have any of you ever gotten insider info? I mean, I guess it's fun making fun of people because of your own insecurities, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than jerking off to Chad Reed's tweets.

Don't be a stranger. Just hit me with your best shot. I'm pretty much perfect. I was a mechanic, and now I'm an editor of a bunch of magazines. What do you edit, other than "pictures of Ryan Dungey"? I also have four basset hounds, and I love Tim Ferry (He just retired; Shit was SO cash). You are all retards who should just kill yourselves. Thanks for listening.

Pic Related: It's me and Red Dog


troublebros
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troublebros 9/14/2010 9:43am
9/14/2010 9:43am
YellowZonker wrote:
I think people are missing the point on this whole 2 stroke thing. Everybody is saying 2 strokes need to come back etc, etc, but how...
I think people are missing the point on this whole 2 stroke thing. Everybody is saying 2 strokes need to come back etc, etc, but how many of you have gone out and bought a brand new Yz250 or 250SX? Riding a 3 year old bike is not helping the manufacturer's bottom line.

What it boils down to is that the people buying a new 2 stroke are in the (very small) minority and the general riding public buys the latest, greatest 4 stroke when the time comes to buy a bike.

Changing from a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke will do absolutely nothing to sway a manufacturer to produce more 2 strokes unless people are going out and buying new and that's where this whole economy thing comes in. If you truly want to make a change, go out and buy a new KTM 250sx, otherwise sit back and stop complaining.
I bought a new yz this year.
Adam43
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Adam43 9/14/2010 9:49am
9/14/2010 9:49am
I am glad Newmann keeps the fight going, and I'm not sick of his schtick one bit. If the AMA could correct their displacement rules to something even close to equitable, the whole game could change.

As it is, the sport has been cut in half participant-wise over the last decade. Sometimes those that are so heavily involved in the pro scene are the last to recognize the real issues.
troublebros
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troublebros 9/14/2010 9:50am
9/14/2010 9:50am
YellowZonker wrote:
I think people are missing the point on this whole 2 stroke thing. Everybody is saying 2 strokes need to come back etc, etc, but how...
I think people are missing the point on this whole 2 stroke thing. Everybody is saying 2 strokes need to come back etc, etc, but how many of you have gone out and bought a brand new Yz250 or 250SX? Riding a 3 year old bike is not helping the manufacturer's bottom line.

What it boils down to is that the people buying a new 2 stroke are in the (very small) minority and the general riding public buys the latest, greatest 4 stroke when the time comes to buy a bike.

Changing from a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke will do absolutely nothing to sway a manufacturer to produce more 2 strokes unless people are going out and buying new and that's where this whole economy thing comes in. If you truly want to make a change, go out and buy a new KTM 250sx, otherwise sit back and stop complaining.
I bought a new yz this year.
alphado
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alphado 9/14/2010 9:53am
9/14/2010 9:53am
I need some 2-stroke help!!! Where can I score these graphics for my kx250?

seth505
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seth505 9/14/2010 10:10am
9/14/2010 10:10am
I bought a new 09 yz 250, no I am not going to dump my money on buying a 2010 and then 2011 because my bike is still great.
Mstock
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Mstock 9/14/2010 10:17am
9/14/2010 10:17am
newmann wrote:
like over in Europe. Stolen from some 2 Stroke Motocross site. Some TM components, Fox suspension and TGM custom touches. [img]http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/TGM125.jpg[/img] Cool article, especially the last...
like over in Europe. Stolen from some 2 Stroke Motocross site. Some TM components, Fox suspension and TGM custom touches.



Cool article, especially the last paragaph. Just some passionate motoheads giving back to the sport we all love.

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/09/tgm-makes-comeback-in-uem-emx-125…
Thanks for posting that. Awesome to see any trick handmade mx bike. Wish it was in the back of my truck!

Pro AMA MX & SX is 1% of my interest in this sport. The other 99% is my own racing, riding, training, wrenching, hanging with moto friends, etc. Who has time to watch someone else race? I will think of team USA when they go to the line because I will be on the starting gate at the same time.

Many of us are leaving the sport because of the cost of maintaining 4 strokes. I love them. I just can't afford them every year. A $6,000 two stroke is not the answer. Knock it down to $4,000 and the sport will explode. The racing was just as fun back in the 90's. That technology was far more than most of us could ever use today.

I like Steve Matthes. I like his humor, videos and articles. But maybe he feels we are like fans of the NFL or Nascar? You know the type. The people that don't play football or race cars. If so, he is very wrong.

Motocross is much different and that is getting lost. We buy the bikes. We buy the gear. We pay to race. We are the sport.

Maybe this board is not the place to post topics about our personal racing desires and should be only for topics regarding Pro MX and Pro SX. Those of us who buy bikes and gear should find somewhere else to hang out. That's the feeling I get from Matthes.

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