Too bad US motocross doesn't welcome innovation

9/14/2010 10:22am
>> That technology was far more than most of us could ever use today.

Next thing you'll tell me is that my FMF and Dunlpp stickers don't give my bike 5 more hp. Unsure
Mstock
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9/14/2010 10:28am
>> That technology was far more than most of us could ever use today. Next thing you'll tell me is that my FMF and Dunlpp stickers...
>> That technology was far more than most of us could ever use today.

Next thing you'll tell me is that my FMF and Dunlpp stickers don't give my bike 5 more hp. Unsure
Sorry queen. You are correct. The only sticker you should run is the factory warning label on the rear fender. And when you sell the bike 7 months later it should still be on there. Ah the good old days. New bikes every season.
oldx
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9/14/2010 10:37am
dano wrote:
TBTeam does the smack down
GuyB wrote:
Yeah, and as soon as you see TBTeam, Dano, and Dr. Mark in any thread together, you know it's a topic being discussed at Motodrivel. Yep...
Yeah, and as soon as you see TBTeam, Dano, and Dr. Mark in any thread together, you know it's a topic being discussed at Motodrivel.

Yep, it's the off-season (though we have the MXoN to go). But let's keep things civil.
OW38B
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9/14/2010 10:38am
Adam43 wrote:
I am glad Newmann keeps the fight going, and I'm not sick of his schtick one bit. If the AMA could correct their displacement rules to...
I am glad Newmann keeps the fight going, and I'm not sick of his schtick one bit. If the AMA could correct their displacement rules to something even close to equitable, the whole game could change.

As it is, the sport has been cut in half participant-wise over the last decade. Sometimes those that are so heavily involved in the pro scene are the last to recognize the real issues.
I concur.

Keep up the good work Newmann.............we're startin' to wear them down.

The Shop

TJ
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9/14/2010 11:04am
Matthes wrote:
I have quite a bit to say about the races each and every weekend. Plenty of it has nothing to do with Tim Ferry so maybe...
I have quite a bit to say about the races each and every weekend. Plenty of it has nothing to do with Tim Ferry so maybe you should check it out sometime.

How do you come to the conclusion that I think I'm superior to everybody by saying that I don't like newmanns threads that fool me into thinking they are about something else when they always lead back into a two-strokes are great and the oems conspired to kill them thread?

Your personal insult reply makes no sense. Please explain.
[color=blue]Here's the thing, man...it's not about one post, it's about your general tone on the board, on your show (yes, I have listened before), & I suspect in person. From your "I have done the privateer cause back & forth and side to side" (paraphrased because I'm too lazy/unconcerned to look it up) to your jab at newmann & everywhere in between. Go back and read your own posts, man. I generally skip over your posts because I don't care for your tone 9x out of 10, and that has soured me on any "tidbits" you feel inclined to share with those of us not elite to be deemed "industry". There are a few posters who I do not pay attention to any longer for various reasons. BUT...you've never seen, nor will you, a post from me flexing nuts about it. My point here, which seems entirely lost on you, is that you come across as a "know-it-all" & that turns me off (as well as others apparently), whether unintentional or not. In this thread & the one about privateers, you come across as an "Internet bully", as if your word should be the final say on the issue because you are Steve Matthes. It's nothing new around here, as we've had other "industry insiders" come across this way. But if you're going to flex nuts like that, don't get all sensitive if someone comes along & busts on them now & again. You don't hear that tone from GuyB, Izer, db, or other "insiders" & that's why they get my respect. Respect gets respect, chief. You will never, EVER see me say something on here that I would not say in person. Take it for what it's worth...//TJ[/color]
9/14/2010 11:49am
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it ran against a 250 two stroke or would two strokes then outsell the four strokes? I'm sure no one would open up their wallets for a thumper IF the rules were never changed. People buy four strokes because they were led to buy them. Shit, there might even be a market for people would buy a cheap air cooled EFI 125 with the modern suspension, hubs and wheels. 4-6 lap motos at a lot of local tracks doesn't even call for a radiator.
Sunhouse
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9/14/2010 1:39pm
I sense Matthes and Big Thug Eminem Watson will have something to discuss for the next show!
Matthes
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9/14/2010 1:51pm
TJ wrote:
[color=blue]Here's the thing, man...it's not about one post, it's about your general tone on the board, on your show (yes, I have listened before), & I...
[color=blue]Here's the thing, man...it's not about one post, it's about your general tone on the board, on your show (yes, I have listened before), & I suspect in person. From your "I have done the privateer cause back & forth and side to side" (paraphrased because I'm too lazy/unconcerned to look it up) to your jab at newmann & everywhere in between. Go back and read your own posts, man. I generally skip over your posts because I don't care for your tone 9x out of 10, and that has soured me on any "tidbits" you feel inclined to share with those of us not elite to be deemed "industry". There are a few posters who I do not pay attention to any longer for various reasons. BUT...you've never seen, nor will you, a post from me flexing nuts about it. My point here, which seems entirely lost on you, is that you come across as a "know-it-all" & that turns me off (as well as others apparently), whether unintentional or not. In this thread & the one about privateers, you come across as an "Internet bully", as if your word should be the final say on the issue because you are Steve Matthes. It's nothing new around here, as we've had other "industry insiders" come across this way. But if you're going to flex nuts like that, don't get all sensitive if someone comes along & busts on them now & again. You don't hear that tone from GuyB, Izer, db, or other "insiders" & that's why they get my respect. Respect gets respect, chief. You will never, EVER see me say something on here that I would not say in person. Take it for what it's worth...//TJ[/color]
Yeah, you're not happy with me at all. You better stop reading my stuff asap as I don't want you to get the wrong "tone" again.
CamP
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9/14/2010 1:52pm
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it...
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it ran against a 250 two stroke or would two strokes then outsell the four strokes? I'm sure no one would open up their wallets for a thumper IF the rules were never changed. People buy four strokes because they were led to buy them. Shit, there might even be a market for people would buy a cheap air cooled EFI 125 with the modern suspension, hubs and wheels. 4-6 lap motos at a lot of local tracks doesn't even call for a radiator.
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe there would be great demand for such a bike if they were marketed properly and the AMA created an amateur class for them to race. I can visualize full gates of them at my local race tracks every weekend. The perfect bike for the average 14-15 year old kid whose parents won't buy him a dirt bike but can afford to buy one himself with a summer's worth of lawn mowing savings.
newmann
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9/14/2010 2:13pm
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it...
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it ran against a 250 two stroke or would two strokes then outsell the four strokes? I'm sure no one would open up their wallets for a thumper IF the rules were never changed. People buy four strokes because they were led to buy them. Shit, there might even be a market for people would buy a cheap air cooled EFI 125 with the modern suspension, hubs and wheels. 4-6 lap motos at a lot of local tracks doesn't even call for a radiator.
CamP wrote:
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe...
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe there would be great demand for such a bike if they were marketed properly and the AMA created an amateur class for them to race. I can visualize full gates of them at my local race tracks every weekend. The perfect bike for the average 14-15 year old kid whose parents won't buy him a dirt bike but can afford to buy one himself with a summer's worth of lawn mowing savings.
I could see KTM building that bike. No need for radiators, powervalves, linkage or hydraulic clutch. Scale back on some of the accessories and there you have it. Yamaha did well back in the early 70's with the MX line while the serious racers went for the YZ's.
ThePipe
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9/14/2010 2:17pm
I wonder how empty our sport will be in 20-30yrs
(I'm speaking of local MX) <--- You know the backbone of our sport.

How many of you Old Schoolers grew up just like me, having to fund everything myself because my parents didn't like MX (I'm sure alot of you did)

I afforded it by working after school and Summers on a Tree Farm for $3.00ph


I've been hardcore MX since the late 70s til now and have spent thousands over the last 32 years.
Back then if I had to deal with the cost's the current 4 strokes bring to the table..... I would have split by 1980 and spent my $ elsewhere

Imagine being the same MX crazed kid you were then but growing up now?
No Money to fix the F-Bomb...... so you sell it and get out and never come back.
(Actually prolly No Money to even buy an F-Bomb)
Years down the road you won't be introducing your kids to MX like alot of us have.

I know I would never have gotten my son and step son into it and we spend plenty of cash every year.

When the 2 strokes are gone for good....... Myself and my MX budget will be gone for good too

I'm not pissing and moaning here, just stating where I stand.

CamP
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9/14/2010 2:27pm
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it...
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it ran against a 250 two stroke or would two strokes then outsell the four strokes? I'm sure no one would open up their wallets for a thumper IF the rules were never changed. People buy four strokes because they were led to buy them. Shit, there might even be a market for people would buy a cheap air cooled EFI 125 with the modern suspension, hubs and wheels. 4-6 lap motos at a lot of local tracks doesn't even call for a radiator.
CamP wrote:
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe...
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe there would be great demand for such a bike if they were marketed properly and the AMA created an amateur class for them to race. I can visualize full gates of them at my local race tracks every weekend. The perfect bike for the average 14-15 year old kid whose parents won't buy him a dirt bike but can afford to buy one himself with a summer's worth of lawn mowing savings.
newmann wrote:
I could see KTM building that bike. No need for radiators, powervalves, linkage or hydraulic clutch. Scale back on some of the accessories and there you...
I could see KTM building that bike. No need for radiators, powervalves, linkage or hydraulic clutch. Scale back on some of the accessories and there you have it. Yamaha did well back in the early 70's with the MX line while the serious racers went for the YZ's.
I could see KTM building that bike and selling more of them than any other bike in their line.
WFO
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9/14/2010 2:27pm
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it...
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it ran against a 250 two stroke or would two strokes then outsell the four strokes? I'm sure no one would open up their wallets for a thumper IF the rules were never changed. People buy four strokes because they were led to buy them. Shit, there might even be a market for people would buy a cheap air cooled EFI 125 with the modern suspension, hubs and wheels. 4-6 lap motos at a lot of local tracks doesn't even call for a radiator.
CamP wrote:
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe...
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe there would be great demand for such a bike if they were marketed properly and the AMA created an amateur class for them to race. I can visualize full gates of them at my local race tracks every weekend. The perfect bike for the average 14-15 year old kid whose parents won't buy him a dirt bike but can afford to buy one himself with a summer's worth of lawn mowing savings.
Cam,

It's obviously going to take an "outsider" to come in here and change this sport, but then again with the Power Hungry people in this industry it will have to get much worse before it gets better. It seems SO simple, until you see the politics that go on at the PRO level in this sport. I think next year will be telling as far as kids that line up on the gate at a Pro SX/MX race. When the energy drinks pull out of this sport then it's Over! Are the Big Boys ready for that?
Some of theses "so-called" industry insiders actually end up doing more harm to this sport than good.
How does that saying go???? What goes around.........
ThePipe
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9/14/2010 2:38pm
haydos25 wrote:
Imagine how much faster those guys would be going on a 250F in those conditions. Stop living in the past, we beg for faster bikes, more...
Imagine how much faster those guys would be going on a 250F in those conditions. Stop living in the past, we beg for faster bikes, more technology, easier to ride equipment then we complain when we get it because we wanna go back to the golden days.

4 strokes are easier to ride, faster and not all that difficult to maintain if you've got half a brain and a bit of time on your hands. People on here talk about them like catastrophic failures happen every 5 minutes, not true and if yours is blowing up that often sell your bikes because part of riding is working on your bike.

Since when was riding an MX bike supposed to be easy?

We don't get into the Sport because it's supposed to be easy

If I wanted an easy Sport growing up I would've tried Football or some other Lame Ass stick and Ball sport.
txmxer
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9/14/2010 2:47pm
One thing that hasn't been said...you gotta love the Italians. They get passionate about something and they go out and build it! Props to them for that passion.

Second, people will race anything with an engine if it has a good price point and the right set-up (meaning tracks).

The only problem with the low end 125cc without all the goodies is the lack of performance on the modern track could be hard to overcome.
MX558
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9/14/2010 3:11pm
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it...
I hear the point that OEMs build a bike based on sales and 4 strokes are what people are buying. Would a 250f sell IF it ran against a 250 two stroke or would two strokes then outsell the four strokes? I'm sure no one would open up their wallets for a thumper IF the rules were never changed. People buy four strokes because they were led to buy them. Shit, there might even be a market for people would buy a cheap air cooled EFI 125 with the modern suspension, hubs and wheels. 4-6 lap motos at a lot of local tracks doesn't even call for a radiator.
CamP wrote:
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe...
I believe a 190lb air cooled 150cc 2t with modern suspension components and a steel frame could be built and sold for $3,995. I also believe there would be great demand for such a bike if they were marketed properly and the AMA created an amateur class for them to race. I can visualize full gates of them at my local race tracks every weekend. The perfect bike for the average 14-15 year old kid whose parents won't buy him a dirt bike but can afford to buy one himself with a summer's worth of lawn mowing savings.
That bike would be a pile of shit. Air cooled come on really ?That would be the day I pay 4k for that, I only paid 4900 otd for my 09 450. They wanted 6500 for the 250 2t that is the same as in 06.
Mstock
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9/14/2010 3:23pm
Air cooled. Steel frame. 190lbs. Oh hell yes.
SwapperMX
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9/14/2010 3:38pm
You lot are definitely a passionate bunch. I LIKE IT !!!!!
newmann
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9/14/2010 3:39pm
MX125 or YZ125. Decisions decisions.

rmgsxr
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9/14/2010 3:50pm
Mstock wrote:
Air cooled. Steel frame. 190lbs. Oh hell yes. [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jpw3578/Vintage%20Motorcross/1979%20Honda%20CR250%20D/DSC02377.jpg[/img][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jpw3578/Vintage%20Motorcross/1979%20KX125/DSC02491.jpg[/img][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jpw3578/Vintage%20Motorcross/1981%20Maico%20490%20swoosh/DSC02426.jpg[/img]
Air cooled. Steel frame. 190lbs. Oh hell yes.
I rode something along those lines last Tuesday. I didn''t have fun. I guess I am just f'ed up in the head.
Mstock
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9/14/2010 3:52pm
newmann wrote:
MX125 or YZ125. Decisions decisions. [img]http://vintagemx.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/yz125a_pic1.jpg[/img]
MX125 or YZ125. Decisions decisions.

My first bike was a MX175. Rode it 20-30hrs per week for 3 years. Total cost of maintenance was under $250 for over 600 hours of riding pleasure.
FLvet
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9/14/2010 4:00pm
Hasn't even the great Tim ferry spent more time in his life on two strokes than thumpers?
Mstock
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9/14/2010 4:02pm
Mstock wrote:
Air cooled. Steel frame. 190lbs. Oh hell yes. [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jpw3578/Vintage%20Motorcross/1979%20Honda%20CR250%20D/DSC02377.jpg[/img][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jpw3578/Vintage%20Motorcross/1979%20KX125/DSC02491.jpg[/img][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jpw3578/Vintage%20Motorcross/1981%20Maico%20490%20swoosh/DSC02426.jpg[/img]
Air cooled. Steel frame. 190lbs. Oh hell yes.
rmgsxr wrote:
I rode something along those lines last Tuesday. I didn''t have fun. I guess I am just f'ed up in the head.
Your not f'ed up in the head. We all love our four strokes. Just can't afford them as a hobby but don't want to leave the sport. Hope something changes. If I don't participate I don't watch. That goes for ball sports, nascar, etc. There are to many cool things to do in life instead of watching others do it or talking about others doing it. Motocross has been the coolest thing I found in life but as they say...."all good things must come to an end".
CamP
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9/14/2010 4:36pm
MX558 wrote:
That bike would be a pile of shit. Air cooled come on really ?That would be the day I pay 4k for that, I only paid...
That bike would be a pile of shit. Air cooled come on really ?That would be the day I pay 4k for that, I only paid 4900 otd for my 09 450. They wanted 6500 for the 250 2t that is the same as in 06.
You are comparing apples to oranges.

What you bought was a fire sale. You can't draw a direct correlation between a fire breathing 450 that retails for $8,000 and an entry level bike that would retail for $4,000. This is about creating an entirely new segment of entry level buyers that are currently priced out of the sport and not stealing sales away from the other product lines that the manufacturers are currently building for guys like you and me.
9/14/2010 4:45pm
ThePipe wrote:
I wonder how empty our sport will be in 20-30yrs
(I'm speaking of local MX) <--- You know the backbone of our sport.

How many of you Old Schoolers grew up just like me, having to fund everything myself because my parents didn't like MX (I'm sure alot of you did)

I afforded it by working after school and Summers on a Tree Farm for $3.00ph


I've been hardcore MX since the late 70s til now and have spent thousands over the last 32 years.
Back then if I had to deal with the cost's the current 4 strokes bring to the table..... I would have split by 1980 and spent my $ elsewhere

Imagine being the same MX crazed kid you were then but growing up now?
No Money to fix the F-Bomb...... so you sell it and get out and never come back.
(Actually prolly No Money to even buy an F-Bomb)
Years down the road you won't be introducing your kids to MX like alot of us have.

I know I would never have gotten my son and step son into it and we spend plenty of cash every year.

When the 2 strokes are gone for good....... Myself and my MX budget will be gone for good too

I'm not pissing and moaning here, just stating where I stand.

My Dad hated bikes. I mowed lawns with a push mower to buy my first dirt bike. Since Dad hated bikes it didn't take me long to figure out how to disassemble the top end and run it over to the shop for a $35.00 1st over. 3 full gates of 125's and once in awhile even the 100cc class had a qualifier to get into the second moto. I'm not going to knock 4-Strokes but 2 stroke Motocross wasn't soo bad .


Mstock
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9/14/2010 4:53pm
MX558 wrote:
That bike would be a pile of shit. Air cooled come on really ?That would be the day I pay 4k for that, I only paid...
That bike would be a pile of shit. Air cooled come on really ?That would be the day I pay 4k for that, I only paid 4900 otd for my 09 450. They wanted 6500 for the 250 2t that is the same as in 06.
CamP wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges. What you bought was a fire sale. You can't draw a direct correlation between a fire breathing 450 that retails...
You are comparing apples to oranges.

What you bought was a fire sale. You can't draw a direct correlation between a fire breathing 450 that retails for $8,000 and an entry level bike that would retail for $4,000. This is about creating an entirely new segment of entry level buyers that are currently priced out of the sport and not stealing sales away from the other product lines that the manufacturers are currently building for guys like you and me.
Well said CamP. If the mcf's don't come up with an alternative to the "pro race bike line" the sport will shrink by 70% or more. We used to race with 7 other family's 5 years ago. We do it alone now. They won't miss a mortgage payment to do a top end rebuild on their kids bike like I do. Not proud of it but thats the truth. This is our last year racing. I know it. Everyone knows it. I just have not told my 2 sons yet. Thats what hurts the most.
SwapperMX
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9/14/2010 5:02pm
Mstock wrote:
Well said CamP. If the mcf's don't come up with an alternative to the "pro race bike line" the sport will shrink by 70% or more...
Well said CamP. If the mcf's don't come up with an alternative to the "pro race bike line" the sport will shrink by 70% or more. We used to race with 7 other family's 5 years ago. We do it alone now. They won't miss a mortgage payment to do a top end rebuild on their kids bike like I do. Not proud of it but thats the truth. This is our last year racing. I know it. Everyone knows it. I just have not told my 2 sons yet. Thats what hurts the most.
Yeah its definitely tough. As far as you giving up racing, are you sure you want to do that? Is there no way you can sell the bikes you have and buy a couple of cheap 125s to at least stay out there?? Its sad to hear how many people have left our sport in recent times.
petegrath
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9/14/2010 5:11pm
Matthes wrote:
Yeah, you're not happy with me at all. You better stop reading my stuff asap as I don't want you to get the wrong "tone" again.
Weak, but I understand not having the time to respond to every critic.

My dilemma is this... We know California is the "8th largest economy in the world", it's splattered all over the place with every story regarding the decline of such economy.

We probably can assume that the eighth largest economy in the world, who is also known for an "extremely large per capita" motocross population, probably accounts for a significant amount of off road motorcycle sales globally. I don't know the figures, but it's got to be quite high.

And we know the state of California outlawed the sale of new 2 strokes a little while ago. Even if the Japanese manufacturers started producing them for the U.S. again, you couldn't get them in Cali.

So who killed the 2 stroke again? I don't think it was the AMA.

Where am I wrong? I'm serious. Where did I go wrong here? Anyone know the actual numbers?
Mstock
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9/14/2010 5:28pm
Mstock wrote:
Well said CamP. If the mcf's don't come up with an alternative to the "pro race bike line" the sport will shrink by 70% or more...
Well said CamP. If the mcf's don't come up with an alternative to the "pro race bike line" the sport will shrink by 70% or more. We used to race with 7 other family's 5 years ago. We do it alone now. They won't miss a mortgage payment to do a top end rebuild on their kids bike like I do. Not proud of it but thats the truth. This is our last year racing. I know it. Everyone knows it. I just have not told my 2 sons yet. Thats what hurts the most.
SwapperMX wrote:
Yeah its definitely tough. As far as you giving up racing, are you sure you want to do that? Is there no way you can sell...
Yeah its definitely tough. As far as you giving up racing, are you sure you want to do that? Is there no way you can sell the bikes you have and buy a couple of cheap 125s to at least stay out there?? Its sad to hear how many people have left our sport in recent times.
You are thinking along the same lines that I am. I have 10,000 dollars of disposable income a year to spend on this sport for 3 racers. The 6,000 dollar 250 two strokes are way out of our price range. Unless I quit racing after 16 years. Tuff choice. But in the end its about the kids. Not me. I had my days in the sun. Best days of my life. I wish the best for this sport but its hard to find any glimour of hope. China. Are you listening?

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