Too bad US motocross doesn't welcome innovation

CR250Rider
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9/15/2010 7:56pm
newmann wrote:
like over in Europe. Stolen from some 2 Stroke Motocross site. Some TM components, Fox suspension and TGM custom touches. [img]http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/TGM125.jpg[/img] Cool article, especially the last...
like over in Europe. Stolen from some 2 Stroke Motocross site. Some TM components, Fox suspension and TGM custom touches.



Cool article, especially the last paragaph. Just some passionate motoheads giving back to the sport we all love.

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/09/tgm-makes-comeback-in-uem-emx-125…
Which opens the door of opportunity for some INNOVATIVE, 2 stroke building upstart.

Look how well KTM is doing selling the things.

I still build a 300cc, 199 lb smoker and it would be probably be the biggest selling dirtbike ever.

it's been done by magazines, put one in full production and cha-ching!
gt80rider
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9/15/2010 8:06pm
WORCSRacer wrote:
Hey when do you think most people will realize that 93 CR250 has more potential than they do?
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how many horse did it have? maybe 40'ish??

how many horse does a 2010 YZF250 put out?? probably close to that amount?? and those are the bikes our kids make the big jump to after 85's....

during the season we have thread after thread about guys getting hurt... and many blame that on the bikes simply being too fast... too much power for even the pros to use, let alone Mr Average Joe C class racer...
CamP
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9/15/2010 8:14pm
gt80rider wrote:
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how...
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how many horse did it have? maybe 40'ish??

how many horse does a 2010 YZF250 put out?? probably close to that amount?? and those are the bikes our kids make the big jump to after 85's....

during the season we have thread after thread about guys getting hurt... and many blame that on the bikes simply being too fast... too much power for even the pros to use, let alone Mr Average Joe C class racer...
A well tuned '81 YZ490 can make 55hp pretty easily.
jmar
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9/15/2010 8:20pm
gt80rider wrote:
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how...
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how many horse did it have? maybe 40'ish??

how many horse does a 2010 YZF250 put out?? probably close to that amount?? and those are the bikes our kids make the big jump to after 85's....

during the season we have thread after thread about guys getting hurt... and many blame that on the bikes simply being too fast... too much power for even the pros to use, let alone Mr Average Joe C class racer...
CamP wrote:
A well tuned '81 YZ490 can make 55hp pretty easily.
And how was the power delivery on that bike?

The Shop

gt80rider
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9/15/2010 8:21pm
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
The stupidest thing about all this shit is YOU CAN BUY TWO STROKES RIGHT NOW AND RACE THEM! All this I can't afford racing shit...
The stupidest thing about all this shit is YOU CAN BUY TWO STROKES RIGHT NOW AND RACE THEM! All this I can't afford racing shit is pure garbage... The only people that are affected by the high cost of racing four strokes are national privateers. That's it. Everyone else that is racing a four stroke bitching and whining about how much it costs then you have no one to blame but yourself as two strokes that are FASTER than their four stroke counterparts are sitting at dealers right now.. You have only yourself to blame.NOT DC, NOT OEMS,NOT MATTHES, NOT DOUG HENRY..YOU! If you are tired of four strokes, then buy two strokes. That is the only way there will ever be a ressurgance. If Honda sees KTM and Yamaha killing it on two stroke sales guess what will happen?

"If you are tired of four strokes, then buy two strokes. That is the only way there will ever be a ressurgance."

respectfully, you haven't a clue how this all works.......

why would a Joe Blow Average Guy (the masses, where the bulk of the money lies) buy a 2 stroke when all he sees in the magazines is 4 strokes?? when his moto heros Stew/Reed/Dungey/Poto all ride 4 bangers??? when every piece of moto marketing tells him that 2 strokes are dead? he won't....

but... if Honda/Yamaha/Kawa/Suzi all of sudden decided to start marketing 2 smokes as the "next big thing", pages upon pages of ads in the mags, talking about lighter, faster, more affordable... and Stew/Reed/Dungey/Poto were racing 2 smokes for the most elite championships, THEN Joe Blow Average Guy would buy a 2 smoke in a heartbeat.....
gt80rider
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9/15/2010 8:24pm Edited Date/Time 9/15/2010 8:26pm
gt80rider wrote:
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how...
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how many horse did it have? maybe 40'ish??

how many horse does a 2010 YZF250 put out?? probably close to that amount?? and those are the bikes our kids make the big jump to after 85's....

during the season we have thread after thread about guys getting hurt... and many blame that on the bikes simply being too fast... too much power for even the pros to use, let alone Mr Average Joe C class racer...
CamP wrote:
A well tuned '81 YZ490 can make 55hp pretty easily.
I messed up above..... i ment to say 81' (or maybe 80'?? can't remember the year) YZ465.... air cooled.... old school monoshock no linkage....
CamP
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9/15/2010 8:33pm
I was talking to a long time pro team manager today about modern racing. He spends as much today supporting two racers as he did 6-7 years ago supporting eight guys on two strokes. He went on to say the new bikes have gotten too good, which has increased the average track speeds and allows the racers to clear much more radical track elements. He's also seeing serious injury more frequently which he attributes to the new bikes and the tracks that are being built for them. He said everyone was better off when 125's were the norm in the MX2/Lites class.
CamP
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9/15/2010 8:33pm
gt80rider wrote:
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how...
remember back in like 81' when Dirt Bike reviewed the YZ490??? they essentially said it put out more power than most mortals could ever use.... how many horse did it have? maybe 40'ish??

how many horse does a 2010 YZF250 put out?? probably close to that amount?? and those are the bikes our kids make the big jump to after 85's....

during the season we have thread after thread about guys getting hurt... and many blame that on the bikes simply being too fast... too much power for even the pros to use, let alone Mr Average Joe C class racer...
CamP wrote:
A well tuned '81 YZ490 can make 55hp pretty easily.
gt80rider wrote:
I messed up above..... i ment to say 81' (or maybe 80'?? can't remember the year) YZ465.... air cooled.... old school monoshock no linkage....
Yeah, '82 was the first year of the 490.
newmann
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9/15/2010 8:36pm
newmann wrote:
like over in Europe. Stolen from some 2 Stroke Motocross site. Some TM components, Fox suspension and TGM custom touches. [img]http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/TGM125.jpg[/img] Cool article, especially the last...
like over in Europe. Stolen from some 2 Stroke Motocross site. Some TM components, Fox suspension and TGM custom touches.



Cool article, especially the last paragaph. Just some passionate motoheads giving back to the sport we all love.

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/09/tgm-makes-comeback-in-uem-emx-125…
You all realize this started out as a thread about a couple of Italians resurrecting the TGM name and building their own 125cc race bike. How many of you actually read the attached article? The bike is a mongrel of sorts, not much different than those fiberglass and nickle plated beauties of Don and Derek Rickmann with Hodaka and Zundapp motors stuffed ino them. Not only that, but they were able to show up to a major event and participate with it. It's a 125cc 2 stroke built to compete in the UEM EMX 125 series. Being someone who has a pretty deep appreciation for the history of the sport, I thought it was a really cool project.

It had nothing to do with any 2 stroke versus 4 stroke bullshit until some jackass showed up and along with him came the four stroke brigade accusing me of having an "agenda". LMAO at all of you that turned something pretty cool into 8 pages of us versus them. But for those willing to brush all the shit to the side and read their way through it all, you have to admit there has been some pretty good thoughts and comments buried in it all.

Agenda? Not really. Just a motohead that thinks motocross in the US got derailed somewhere along the way and now there is a big ass gap between the 85cc and 250cc class that "in my opinion"(from Guy B's teachings) needs to be filled. And I am to some extent willing to put my money were my mouth is. If that's an"agenda", then so be it.

I'll end this with another little mongrel of a tiddler from my collection of all things moto. Some of you may recognize it as something of geat historical significance, others may just see it as an ugly old POS. But there was a time when it was not only welcomed to the gate, but one of its siblings and its rider made moto history.



newmann
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9/15/2010 8:44pm
And for any of you moto history buffs, yes that is "Diamond" Don Rainey in the pic with O'Mara. Don was there that rainy day in Ohio with Johnny and Al.
SwapperMX
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9/15/2010 8:47pm
newmann wrote:
You all realize this started out as a thread about a couple of Italians resurrecting the TGM name and building their own 125cc race bike. How...
You all realize this started out as a thread about a couple of Italians resurrecting the TGM name and building their own 125cc race bike. How many of you actually read the attached article? The bike is a mongrel of sorts, not much different than those fiberglass and nickle plated beauties of Don and Derek Rickmann with Hodaka and Zundapp motors stuffed ino them. Not only that, but they were able to show up to a major event and participate with it. It's a 125cc 2 stroke built to compete in the UEM EMX 125 series. Being someone who has a pretty deep appreciation for the history of the sport, I thought it was a really cool project.

It had nothing to do with any 2 stroke versus 4 stroke bullshit until some jackass showed up and along with him came the four stroke brigade accusing me of having an "agenda". LMAO at all of you that turned something pretty cool into 8 pages of us versus them. But for those willing to brush all the shit to the side and read their way through it all, you have to admit there has been some pretty good thoughts and comments buried in it all.

Agenda? Not really. Just a motohead that thinks motocross in the US got derailed somewhere along the way and now there is a big ass gap between the 85cc and 250cc class that "in my opinion"(from Guy B's teachings) needs to be filled. And I am to some extent willing to put my money were my mouth is. If that's an"agenda", then so be it.

I'll end this with another little mongrel of a tiddler from my collection of all things moto. Some of you may recognize it as something of geat historical significance, others may just see it as an ugly old POS. But there was a time when it was not only welcomed to the gate, but one of its siblings and its rider made moto history.



Now that is COOL.

Thanks Newmann, much appreciated.
jmar
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9/15/2010 8:50pm
CamP wrote:
I was talking to a long time pro team manager today about modern racing. He spends as much today supporting two racers as he did 6-7...
I was talking to a long time pro team manager today about modern racing. He spends as much today supporting two racers as he did 6-7 years ago supporting eight guys on two strokes. He went on to say the new bikes have gotten too good, which has increased the average track speeds and allows the racers to clear much more radical track elements. He's also seeing serious injury more frequently which he attributes to the new bikes and the tracks that are being built for them. He said everyone was better off when 125's were the norm in the MX2/Lites class.
Cam

I honestly don't believe all these cost increases have to do with the bikes. It's has to do with the fact that everything is more expensive today. The race haulers have stepped it up three or four notches, the riders are making more money, flights, lodging, credentials, entry fees etc. It's all gone up, and the support is harder to find so more money is coming from out of pocket.

The sport has progressed rapidly since 02 or 03.
In 03, our cost were down because the 250fs required very few mods, and very little maintenance or parts. The 125s were parts eaters.


nobhead
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9/15/2010 8:54pm
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
The stupidest thing about all this shit is YOU CAN BUY TWO STROKES RIGHT NOW AND RACE THEM! All this I can't afford racing shit...
The stupidest thing about all this shit is YOU CAN BUY TWO STROKES RIGHT NOW AND RACE THEM! All this I can't afford racing shit is pure garbage... The only people that are affected by the high cost of racing four strokes are national privateers. That's it. Everyone else that is racing a four stroke bitching and whining about how much it costs then you have no one to blame but yourself as two strokes that are FASTER than their four stroke counterparts are sitting at dealers right now.. You have only yourself to blame.NOT DC, NOT OEMS,NOT MATTHES, NOT DOUG HENRY..YOU! If you are tired of four strokes, then buy two strokes. That is the only way there will ever be a ressurgance. If Honda sees KTM and Yamaha killing it on two stroke sales guess what will happen?


It all seems very simple to me. Innovation is what changed everything. And the folks who do go to the dealer to buy new bikes are, sheeple.

-Innovation. someone allowed for it with the 400cc Yamaha and it one. Now, just like any new proven product everyone thinks, if it helped Henry it can only help me. Manufacturers, advertise and sell bikes that win major mx/sx events, because as sheeple, we are lured to the best. Regardless of argueing, the best will always be the bike with the 1 plate. The problem is, the 4st. may or may not be the best. It's like when the UFC first started with no weight classes. The displacement advantage was a heavy weight against a light weight.

-Innovation. If someone were to allow for "mathmatically" equal power between the 2 stroke and 4 then things would evolve natually. Assuming, someone starts winning major mx/sx events on the 2 stroke, then the sheeple will buy 2 strokes again. Not to mention the benefits.

newmann
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9/15/2010 9:02pm
gt80rider wrote:
I messed up above..... i ment to say 81' (or maybe 80'?? can't remember the year) YZ465.... air cooled.... old school monoshock no linkage....
Did someone say 1981 YZ465? Another pic from my collection of all things moto. I bought this one from the grandson of the old man who purchased it new. The owner had passed away a couple years ago and the grandson ended up with the bike. Someone pointed him my direction as he was wanting to sell it to purchase something newer and he had no idea how to get it running. I paid a pretty penny for it, but how often do you get the chance to buy a 81 YZ465 with probably less than ten hours trail riding on it? The rear fender was split, the bars were bent and the levers were broken.....go figure. I cleaned it up and replaced the damaged parts. A new chain replaced the rusty original, fresh Dunlops exchanged for the hardened barely worn stockers, a fresh twin air and carb cleaning and she fired on the second kick since probably 1981.

Power? She makes a good bit and for an old air cooled non power valved 2 stroke, it's pretty broad. You would be amazed watching someone like LaPorte ride these old open class Yamaha's when he shows up to our vintage events.

The only thing I painted on this one was the kickstand. The owner was a little on the short side and had welded a piece of metal to it to sturdy it up so he could start it while standing on the pegs. It's for sale too.



jmar
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9/15/2010 9:03pm
-Innovation. If someone were to allow for "mathmatically" equal power between the 2 stroke and 4 then things would evolve natually. Assuming, someone starts winning major mx/sx events on the 2 stroke, then the sheeple will buy 2 strokes again. Not to mention the benefits.

It's really not as far off as some think. I agree though, the two strokes should be allowed a displacement that produces the same HP as it's four stroke counterpart.

As far as the large bore class?
I think that engine displacement should be unlimited on the two strokes.
jmar
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9/15/2010 9:09pm
gt80rider wrote:
I messed up above..... i ment to say 81' (or maybe 80'?? can't remember the year) YZ465.... air cooled.... old school monoshock no linkage....
newmann wrote:
Did someone say 1981 YZ465? Another pic from my collection of all things moto. I bought this one from the grandson of the old man who...
Did someone say 1981 YZ465? Another pic from my collection of all things moto. I bought this one from the grandson of the old man who purchased it new. The owner had passed away a couple years ago and the grandson ended up with the bike. Someone pointed him my direction as he was wanting to sell it to purchase something newer and he had no idea how to get it running. I paid a pretty penny for it, but how often do you get the chance to buy a 81 YZ465 with probably less than ten hours trail riding on it? The rear fender was split, the bars were bent and the levers were broken.....go figure. I cleaned it up and replaced the damaged parts. A new chain replaced the rusty original, fresh Dunlops exchanged for the hardened barely worn stockers, a fresh twin air and carb cleaning and she fired on the second kick since probably 1981.

Power? She makes a good bit and for an old air cooled non power valved 2 stroke, it's pretty broad. You would be amazed watching someone like LaPorte ride these old open class Yamaha's when he shows up to our vintage events.

The only thing I painted on this one was the kickstand. The owner was a little on the short side and had welded a piece of metal to it to sturdy it up so he could start it while standing on the pegs. It's for sale too.



Very nice bike Newman, but Danny can make any bike look like a good ride.Wink

newmann
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9/15/2010 9:13pm
jmar wrote:
Very nice bike Newman, but Danny can make any bike look like a good ride.Wink

Yeah, but watching him thrash the ever loving shit out of a pristinely restored 84 YZ490 in the mix of some pretty heavy competition was a thing of beauty.
CamP
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9/15/2010 9:17pm Edited Date/Time 9/15/2010 9:19pm
CamP wrote:
I was talking to a long time pro team manager today about modern racing. He spends as much today supporting two racers as he did 6-7...
I was talking to a long time pro team manager today about modern racing. He spends as much today supporting two racers as he did 6-7 years ago supporting eight guys on two strokes. He went on to say the new bikes have gotten too good, which has increased the average track speeds and allows the racers to clear much more radical track elements. He's also seeing serious injury more frequently which he attributes to the new bikes and the tracks that are being built for them. He said everyone was better off when 125's were the norm in the MX2/Lites class.
jmar wrote:
Cam I honestly don't believe all these cost increases have to do with the bikes. It's has to do with the fact that everything is more...
Cam

I honestly don't believe all these cost increases have to do with the bikes. It's has to do with the fact that everything is more expensive today. The race haulers have stepped it up three or four notches, the riders are making more money, flights, lodging, credentials, entry fees etc. It's all gone up, and the support is harder to find so more money is coming from out of pocket.

The sport has progressed rapidly since 02 or 03.
In 03, our cost were down because the 250fs required very few mods, and very little maintenance or parts. The 125s were parts eaters.


He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at alarmingly frequent intervals.
jmar
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9/15/2010 9:29pm
CamP wrote:
I was talking to a long time pro team manager today about modern racing. He spends as much today supporting two racers as he did 6-7...
I was talking to a long time pro team manager today about modern racing. He spends as much today supporting two racers as he did 6-7 years ago supporting eight guys on two strokes. He went on to say the new bikes have gotten too good, which has increased the average track speeds and allows the racers to clear much more radical track elements. He's also seeing serious injury more frequently which he attributes to the new bikes and the tracks that are being built for them. He said everyone was better off when 125's were the norm in the MX2/Lites class.
jmar wrote:
Cam I honestly don't believe all these cost increases have to do with the bikes. It's has to do with the fact that everything is more...
Cam

I honestly don't believe all these cost increases have to do with the bikes. It's has to do with the fact that everything is more expensive today. The race haulers have stepped it up three or four notches, the riders are making more money, flights, lodging, credentials, entry fees etc. It's all gone up, and the support is harder to find so more money is coming from out of pocket.

The sport has progressed rapidly since 02 or 03.
In 03, our cost were down because the 250fs required very few mods, and very little maintenance or parts. The 125s were parts eaters.


CamP wrote:
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at...
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at alarmingly frequent intervals.
It's progressed into that. It wasn't like that 6 or 7 years ago, in fact, it was cheaper to run the four strokes vs the works type two strokes.

A change in the rules would address that problem.
jmar
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9/15/2010 9:32pm
jmar wrote:
Very nice bike Newman, but Danny can make any bike look like a good ride.Wink

newmann wrote:
Yeah, but watching him thrash the ever loving shit out of a pristinely restored 84 YZ490 in the mix of some pretty heavy competition was a...
Yeah, but watching him thrash the ever loving shit out of a pristinely restored 84 YZ490 in the mix of some pretty heavy competition was a thing of beauty.
I am sure that it was.

Danny is not only an amazing rider, he's a good guy to boot.
newmann
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9/15/2010 9:32pm
CamP wrote:
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at...
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at alarmingly frequent intervals.
Does that sound like entry level or regional pro class material to anyone here? Something might be out of whack when the premier 450 class can be raced on a smaller budget.
jmar
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9/15/2010 9:47pm
CamP wrote:
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at...
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at alarmingly frequent intervals.
newmann wrote:
Does that sound like entry level or regional pro class material to anyone here? Something might be out of whack when the premier 450 class can...
Does that sound like entry level or regional pro class material to anyone here? Something might be out of whack when the premier 450 class can be raced on a smaller budget.
So you don't think that these same teams wouldn't break the bank on the 125s?

Again, this high cost could be addressed with some rule changes.
CamP
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9/15/2010 9:50pm
CamP wrote:
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at...
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at alarmingly frequent intervals.
newmann wrote:
Does that sound like entry level or regional pro class material to anyone here? Something might be out of whack when the premier 450 class can...
Does that sound like entry level or regional pro class material to anyone here? Something might be out of whack when the premier 450 class can be raced on a smaller budget.
jmar wrote:
So you don't think that these same teams wouldn't break the bank on the 125s?

Again, this high cost could be addressed with some rule changes.
Apparently there are some road blocks that are preventing that from happening.
jmar
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9/15/2010 9:53pm
CamP wrote:
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at...
He was talking bike cost, not total cost. He's got $25k in each bike before they hit the track. The rebuilds are $4k and happen at alarmingly frequent intervals.
newmann wrote:
Does that sound like entry level or regional pro class material to anyone here? Something might be out of whack when the premier 450 class can...
Does that sound like entry level or regional pro class material to anyone here? Something might be out of whack when the premier 450 class can be raced on a smaller budget.
I can assure you that you don't need to spend 25k to have a competitive motor in the large bore class. Now if you back the displacement down to 350cc then the deep pocket teams will be building the same over tweeked bikes like they have in the 250f class.
Blake
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9/15/2010 10:02pm
Nowadays a good 500 should be in the 75-80 range, stock, on pump gas. It's not hard.
CamP
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9/15/2010 10:02pm
I think Holigan mentioned that Regal's bike had about $6k in mods.
9/15/2010 11:04pm Edited Date/Time 9/15/2010 11:04pm
There is innovation. It will just cost you $2500-$3000 to rebuild when it blows up.
CamP
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9/15/2010 11:23pm Edited Date/Time 9/15/2010 11:24pm
There is innovation. It will just cost you $2500-$3000 to rebuild when it blows up.
At the top pro level, costs $4k to rebuild a 250F even if it doesn't blow up, and several times that if it does blow up.
JohnnyO_57
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9/16/2010 6:25am
All I can say is... holy crap!

Folks from both sides have moved so far afield from Newmann's original post that it's not recognizable.

Personally I had the opportunity to meet him in Texas, he's a great guy with a huge love for the sport of motocross. He supplied some bikes for display and was part of an award for Steve Wise. My bet is even those that have been less then kind in your responses to him, would enjoy spending the afternoon with him.

The OP stated that a new machine was developed. The reason for the development was a small rule change made by the FIM. He was excited about it and wanted to share it. Yes he chose a provocative title to get folks to read about it, good move on his part.

You guys that actually hate all the two-stroke talk actually contribute to it growing out of control. You get so defensive, why?

If you like four-strokes, more power to you, enjoy them, race them... it's all good. The same with two-strokes...

The idea of developing a 125cc feeder class for the Nationals has some merit and is worth considering.

Can we talk about that idea and why a small company would dare to build a new bike in this economy, instead of all the other stuff?

MX4EVR
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9/16/2010 7:32am
jmar wrote:
All this two stroke vs four stroke is crazy. One post, some expert is saying that the rider is 90%, and the bike is 10%. The...
All this two stroke vs four stroke is crazy. One post, some expert is saying that the rider is 90%, and the bike is 10%. The next post is that four stokes are a joke, then we have those that are adamant that the four stroke is a huge advantage and it has ruined their life.

My guess is that most of those doing all the bitching haven't bought a new bike in years.

Who's the fast as hell kid on the 2stroke that rides at RR17 new track in welston????
I think its the same kid that won this year at Ponca in the 2stroke class??? He is fast as hell on that 2stroke!

Justin Bogal (great kid ) 450 stk INT PONCA Fastest lap 1.33.699

Colt Nichols 2Stroke 250 Non-Pro Fastest Lap 1.33.634!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I just sold my 09' YZ450f and have a 11' YZ250 2stroke on order and can't wait!!!


I guess since everyone else is BITCHING I will join in........................

someone bring back 59th and Douglas!!!!!!!!! WTF?

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