"The 350 is fine" - RV

Suns_PSD
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Suns_PSD 7/25/2010 7:27pm
7/25/2010 7:27pm
In the 500cc 2 stroke MotoGP (just called GPs back then) days a few times manufacturers attempted to take advantage of the significantly lower weight limits allowed to bikes running less cylinders. A few people tried to make them work knowing full well that they would give up some hp but since the 250 GPs had very similiar lap times to the 500s they reasononed that a lighter 500 would be completely competitive.

Even though the 2 and 3 cylinder efforts never had the sort of support and rider talent that the top level bikes received they had several pole positions and very competitive qualifying positions throughout their time.

Yet they usually came up WAY short in the results. King Kenny Roberts summed it up when he said (paraphrasing here) "Better to build a heavier, faster bike because although you can turn a fast lap time on an open track w/ the lighter, better handling motorcycle, in the race the larger bike will just park you in the turns killing your drive and then it will out motor you down every single straightaway. If I ever were to do it again I'd build a V-6."
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 7/25/2010 7:39pm
7/25/2010 7:39pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
In the 500cc 2 stroke MotoGP (just called GPs back then) days a few times manufacturers attempted to take advantage of the significantly lower weight limits...
In the 500cc 2 stroke MotoGP (just called GPs back then) days a few times manufacturers attempted to take advantage of the significantly lower weight limits allowed to bikes running less cylinders. A few people tried to make them work knowing full well that they would give up some hp but since the 250 GPs had very similiar lap times to the 500s they reasononed that a lighter 500 would be completely competitive.

Even though the 2 and 3 cylinder efforts never had the sort of support and rider talent that the top level bikes received they had several pole positions and very competitive qualifying positions throughout their time.

Yet they usually came up WAY short in the results. King Kenny Roberts summed it up when he said (paraphrasing here) "Better to build a heavier, faster bike because although you can turn a fast lap time on an open track w/ the lighter, better handling motorcycle, in the race the larger bike will just park you in the turns killing your drive and then it will out motor you down every single straightaway. If I ever were to do it again I'd build a V-6."
That's why 250 two strokes can't compete with 450s unless they're under a really good rider - they get blocked in the turns and out-dragged on the straights. Put a great rider on an empty track on a 250T and he can turn lap times very close to what he can do on a 450, but fill up the track with 450s and he's in deep trouble.

But I don't think that's all it is with Mikey - it's probably a lot of things, starting with the fact that he's not a great test rider and settings guy, then giving up displacement which hurts the best part of his game which is getting holeshots, then losing confidence.
burnside
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burnside 7/26/2010 3:34am
7/26/2010 3:34am Edited Date/Time 7/26/2010 3:36am
I can't wait to hear what Alessi has to say about the bike when his contract is up. Also love the twist that Caroilli is kicking ass on one. Leaves Mike sort of stumped for excuses about the bike. Good bench racing fuel!
Crush
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Crush 7/26/2010 3:46am
7/26/2010 3:46am
That photo of Cairoli looks like the 2nd turn too, not the first...

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ayearinmx
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ayearinmx 7/26/2010 4:30am
7/26/2010 4:30am
yea, that's at mantova..... they've already had one left-hander, then it's about 100m to turn 2, which they are just approaching in that photo
JB 19
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JB 19 7/26/2010 5:14am
7/26/2010 5:14am
If Mike rode for JGR and Tony stayed in California I bet we would see an amazing turn around. ........and with the rumors of Josh Grant leaving to move back to California.......Hmmm
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raddad 7/26/2010 6:33am
7/26/2010 6:33am
JB 19 wrote:
If Mike rode for JGR and Tony stayed in California I bet we would see an amazing turn around. ........and with the rumors of Josh Grant...
If Mike rode for JGR and Tony stayed in California I bet we would see an amazing turn around. ........and with the rumors of Josh Grant leaving to move back to California.......Hmmm
I suppose that's possible but do you think that MA could "unlearn" all the bad habits that his father has instilled in him? I tend to think that Mike will always be Mike no matter if his father pulls the strings or not. He is no kid any longer and could have done things differently many times in the past IMO. After the KTM deal runs its course it will be interesting what happens next!
TerryK
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TerryK 7/26/2010 8:39am
7/26/2010 8:39am
No matter what Alessi does, KTM is laughing all the way to the bank. They are going to sell every damned one of those 350s to the general public, which is after all, the targeted market for the bikes. Lets face it, the 350 should turn out to be the ideal bike for the average racer and a hell of a good base for the more serious or local pro. And I'm not just talking MX here. Woods guys and casual trail riders are drooling at the chance to get their hands on one as well.
chrisgg90 7/26/2010 9:13am
7/26/2010 9:13am Edited Date/Time 7/26/2010 9:36am
Seems that this topic comes round every year on here with you guys. It's this it's that. Maybe he is just not as good as you guys think and he's like most of the other racer out there a top 10 guy every week that has some good rides here and there on tracks he likes.
panic revver 7/26/2010 9:26am
7/26/2010 9:26am
Alessi is a good dude in these pics:



DownSouth
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DownSouth 7/26/2010 9:39am
7/26/2010 9:39am Edited Date/Time 7/26/2010 9:41am
Hey Kyle since your not gonna be using that bike today can I race it?



All kidding aside it is nice to see that some of these guys look out for each other.
panic revver 7/26/2010 9:41am
7/26/2010 9:41am
DownSouth wrote:
Hey Kyle since your not gonna be using that bike today can I race it? All kidding aside it is nice to see that some of...
Hey Kyle since your not gonna be using that bike today can I race it?



All kidding aside it is nice to see that some of these guys look out for each other.
LOL Perfect!!!
YellowZonker 7/26/2010 9:45am
7/26/2010 9:45am
I really don't get how people say the 350 is underpowered. The factory teams aren't trying to get all the power they can out of the 450s so I'm sure the 350 can be made every bit as fast. If the Pro Circuit 250s can put out 45 - 50hp (which is what I have heard) then I'm sure they can get 50 - 55 out of a 350.
swspeedpics 8/11/2010 1:20am
8/11/2010 1:20am
There is a rumour that says Toni Cairoli is not driving a 350 but a 400.. His Yamaha last year was tuned down aswell.


gr Wilco
Zildjian
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Zildjian 8/11/2010 10:50am
8/11/2010 10:50am
ocscottie wrote:
Hell, RV smoked the world on a 250!
*RC had EB at the time and was too busy getting ready for racing in a circle.
goonrider
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goonrider 8/13/2010 2:44pm
8/13/2010 2:44pm
It took Alessi a long time to live down "Believe the hype" and the "Tedesco bike standing" incident. For a long time there he always had the American flag on his helmet and when he is hated so much by his American fans I think it really bothers him. When Bubba, Grant, RC, RV talk smack or with confidence they are cheered but Alessi has always been jeered. Alessi ran his mouth at Hangtown and took a beating for it. I am in the minority here in saying I really like the kid and wish someday he makes it on the MXDN team and represents the stars and stripes for us all.
dlowe102
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dlowe102 8/13/2010 2:50pm
8/13/2010 2:50pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
In the 500cc 2 stroke MotoGP (just called GPs back then) days a few times manufacturers attempted to take advantage of the significantly lower weight limits...
In the 500cc 2 stroke MotoGP (just called GPs back then) days a few times manufacturers attempted to take advantage of the significantly lower weight limits allowed to bikes running less cylinders. A few people tried to make them work knowing full well that they would give up some hp but since the 250 GPs had very similiar lap times to the 500s they reasononed that a lighter 500 would be completely competitive.

Even though the 2 and 3 cylinder efforts never had the sort of support and rider talent that the top level bikes received they had several pole positions and very competitive qualifying positions throughout their time.

Yet they usually came up WAY short in the results. King Kenny Roberts summed it up when he said (paraphrasing here) "Better to build a heavier, faster bike because although you can turn a fast lap time on an open track w/ the lighter, better handling motorcycle, in the race the larger bike will just park you in the turns killing your drive and then it will out motor you down every single straightaway. If I ever were to do it again I'd build a V-6."
WhKnuckle wrote:
That's why 250 two strokes can't compete with 450s unless they're under a really good rider - they get blocked in the turns and out-dragged on...
That's why 250 two strokes can't compete with 450s unless they're under a really good rider - they get blocked in the turns and out-dragged on the straights. Put a great rider on an empty track on a 250T and he can turn lap times very close to what he can do on a 450, but fill up the track with 450s and he's in deep trouble.

But I don't think that's all it is with Mikey - it's probably a lot of things, starting with the fact that he's not a great test rider and settings guy, then giving up displacement which hurts the best part of his game which is getting holeshots, then losing confidence.
displacement counts in a race
race
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race 8/13/2010 3:31pm
8/13/2010 3:31pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
In the 500cc 2 stroke MotoGP (just called GPs back then) days a few times manufacturers attempted to take advantage of the significantly lower weight limits...
In the 500cc 2 stroke MotoGP (just called GPs back then) days a few times manufacturers attempted to take advantage of the significantly lower weight limits allowed to bikes running less cylinders. A few people tried to make them work knowing full well that they would give up some hp but since the 250 GPs had very similiar lap times to the 500s they reasononed that a lighter 500 would be completely competitive.

Even though the 2 and 3 cylinder efforts never had the sort of support and rider talent that the top level bikes received they had several pole positions and very competitive qualifying positions throughout their time.

Yet they usually came up WAY short in the results. King Kenny Roberts summed it up when he said (paraphrasing here) "Better to build a heavier, faster bike because although you can turn a fast lap time on an open track w/ the lighter, better handling motorcycle, in the race the larger bike will just park you in the turns killing your drive and then it will out motor you down every single straightaway. If I ever were to do it again I'd build a V-6."
WhKnuckle wrote:
That's why 250 two strokes can't compete with 450s unless they're under a really good rider - they get blocked in the turns and out-dragged on...
That's why 250 two strokes can't compete with 450s unless they're under a really good rider - they get blocked in the turns and out-dragged on the straights. Put a great rider on an empty track on a 250T and he can turn lap times very close to what he can do on a 450, but fill up the track with 450s and he's in deep trouble.

But I don't think that's all it is with Mikey - it's probably a lot of things, starting with the fact that he's not a great test rider and settings guy, then giving up displacement which hurts the best part of his game which is getting holeshots, then losing confidence.
dlowe102 wrote:
displacement counts in a race
Pavement racing is a bad analogy. You get blocked on pavement because it is the equivalent of a mud race where there is only a single race line. That's rarely the case in the outdoor series where the racing line is far wider and the changing track produces even more opportunities to get around someone. Rider fatigue is also a much greater factor in the dirt ... and would count for more than it does on pavement.

And as I recall, that three cyclinder thing Kenny tried to campaign would not hold together for more than half a race. They had constant problems with the crank, etc. Had a big four factory put full time, development and resources behind it, you might have a valid comparison.

Lastly, with only one guy over here campaigning the 350, it is impossible to sort out rider problems from bike problems. You simply need more time and more riders on the bike to really know what is up.

Pit Row

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dlowe102
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dlowe102 8/13/2010 3:47pm
8/13/2010 3:47pm
Motocross tracks that four strokes race on become one lined in general compared to a track raced on 2 stroke
Rooster
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Rooster 8/13/2010 4:35pm
8/13/2010 4:35pm
calimxer91 wrote:
Disagree a little with that. Engine may be fine but He jumps out of ruts a lot and looks a lot more squirrely (sic) than last...
Disagree a little with that. Engine may be fine but He jumps out of ruts a lot and looks a


lot more squirrely (sic) than last year.
So does Reed this year. Suzukis handle great.

Too bad that's a bridge the Alessi's can never cross again.
Rooster
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Rooster 8/13/2010 4:42pm
8/13/2010 4:42pm
dlowe102 wrote:
displacement counts in a race
Speed counts in a race, displacement only counts when you're figuring out what size piston you need.

Ask RV or Johnny O'mara about how fast you can go on a tiddler against a larger displacement bike. They've both beat the best in the world on a tiddler.
FHKRacingZ
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FHKRacingZ 8/13/2010 5:47pm
8/13/2010 5:47pm
Your an idiot if you really think a pro circuit 250f is 50hp.

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