TV Angles - Don't do the speed justice?

Russell2686
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Edited Date/Time 1/24/2012 7:50pm
Does anyone else think that the TV filming angles don't do the racing any justice?

When watching all the videos on Transworld and Vital you definitely get a better sense of how fast these guys are going. Also, you feel more like you're on the track than any of the tv footage, and can see elevation changes and the size of the jumps much better.
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6/25/2010 8:50am
I noticed at High Point the finish line table looked ridiculously small on TV. It was actually a rather long table and TV made it look like a 10' long 3' high jump.
sdfog1
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6/25/2010 8:58am
It's most likely because they film a lot of things from on top of a scissor lift. If they showed it from a lower angle on the side of a jump, it would look much better IMO.
DownSouth
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6/25/2010 9:04am
The worst contrast I ever saw was from Mt Morris last year. After watching the NBC coverage and the Racer X motocross show it did not look like the same track. The scissor lift shots squash the perspective and makes the off cambers and hills look so much smaller. The hand held cameras shot at ground level give a much more dynamic view.

Of course the cost of having enough guys on the ground to capture the whole track would probably be ridiculous.
sxf138
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6/25/2010 9:28am
Jump on a track with a few pros, and you will answer your question

The Shop

Russell2686
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6/25/2010 9:31am
sxf138 wrote:
Jump on a track with a few pros, and you will answer your question
huh?

that was my point. they are 100x faster in person then what it looks like on TV.

I think to someone unfamiliar with the sport and watching it on TV, they would have more respect for how fast the riders are, the size of the jumps, and how rough the track is if there were better camera angles.
ando
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6/25/2010 9:42am
Close, low angle shots are good when you are shooting a promo video on a short SX practice track, but unrealistic when trying to provide watchable coverage on a long MX track where you may not even be able to see over the next jump.

I do agree with what you are saying, however as I understand from what DC has said that MX Sports is paying for the coverage so they are probably trying to minimise the number of cameras. Perhaps as the profile grows and with more money there will be better and more interesting angles i.e. more cameras.
sxf138
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6/25/2010 9:44am
huh? that was my point. they are 100x faster in person then what it looks like on TV. I think to someone unfamiliar with the sport...
huh?

that was my point. they are 100x faster in person then what it looks like on TV.

I think to someone unfamiliar with the sport and watching it on TV, they would have more respect for how fast the riders are, the size of the jumps, and how rough the track is if there were better camera angles.
Sorry, should of said i agree with you about how the tv doesn't do justice. They definatley have my respect thats forsure. I just tell people that before you watch it on tv go and watch a national
clem
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6/25/2010 9:47am
I think that one major difference is the types of cameras/lenses that are used. Not sure exactly what cameras Racer x uses but I did see alot of panasonic prosumers likethe HVX. These don't have as wide of an angle lense like the broadcast cameras used for speed so it may appear larger to the small cameras. I always felt that as long as the speeds these guys pull off at the tracks aren't conveyed on TV, MX will have a hard time growing on the masses. Unless they go in person they won't know how insane it really is. Also, very good topic.
RACEGUY
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6/25/2010 9:47am
Just like you can't even conceive how fast a professional hockey game is by watching it on TV.

It's not just the camera angles, although a lot more ground-based shooters would make it much better. The problem lies in lenses and their focal issues. I am not even an amateur photographer, but some of the pros on here could explain it all.

The cameras used by TWMX and Cudby, etc, are a far different beast from the broadcast cameras the other guys still rely on. I actually think the level of camera used by "our guys" have more forgiving lensing and can actually give a little better representation of speed, height, and distance.
Rooster
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6/25/2010 10:06am
The best camera angle to show the speed is when they run the camera on the quad next to the whoops. Too bad they don't have those cable rigs like you see at the x-games where it moves with the action. Even overhead it's give a much better representation of speed.
ando
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6/25/2010 10:09am
clem wrote:
I think that one major difference is the types of cameras/lenses that are used. Not sure exactly what cameras Racer x uses but I did see...
I think that one major difference is the types of cameras/lenses that are used. Not sure exactly what cameras Racer x uses but I did see alot of panasonic prosumers likethe HVX. These don't have as wide of an angle lense like the broadcast cameras used for speed so it may appear larger to the small cameras. I always felt that as long as the speeds these guys pull off at the tracks aren't conveyed on TV, MX will have a hard time growing on the masses. Unless they go in person they won't know how insane it really is. Also, very good topic.
That's an inherent disadvantage that MX has in the effort to attain mainstream popularity - the lack of familiarity by non-participant viewers. Everyone either owns a car or has driven in a car, so they are familiar with the feeling of speed that it has. Hell you can even pay to ride with a professional driver in full-on race cars if you really want the experience of race level speed.

But one thing you can never do with a dirtbike is convey the speed and feeling of running at a world class pace. Even as an amateur racer, I know that the top riders are riding the bike at a pace and in a manner that I will never fully know or comprehend.
6/25/2010 10:14am
I think that every single time I watch on T.V. if they just add a few cameras that don't move near a fast corner or fast straight you would really get to see the speed. When you watch an F1 race and they show the corners with a stationary camera it looks like a slot car race almost unreal fast!
jaeckle
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6/25/2010 11:22am
If 3 guys running around with hand held cameras could capture the essence of outdoor motocross for the CANADIAN NATIONALS then I think SPEED TV can figure it out also.
RACEGUY
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6/25/2010 11:32am
jaeckle wrote:
If 3 guys running around with hand held cameras could capture the essence of outdoor motocross for the CANADIAN NATIONALS then I think SPEED TV can...
If 3 guys running around with hand held cameras could capture the essence of outdoor motocross for the CANADIAN NATIONALS then I think SPEED TV can figure it out also.
Reinforces the difference in cameras again. LIghtweight handhelds need to be down there out of necessity, but the result usually outperforms the big, bulky, overly versitile broadcast camera.

NASCAR's "cup" cars do not look fast even at 200 MPH when they're shot on one of the big fixed cameras, but the little, durable fixed cameras on the wall or buried next to the track come a lot closer to the real deal. Still not perfect, but better.
Adam43
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6/25/2010 11:41am
I've been saying this for years.

The elevated or scissor lift high angles do a poor job of showing the excitement of racing. Get some guys with handhelds or zoom right in to the track.
JW381
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7/27/2010 12:37pm
Washougal was a prime example of this. Being there, and seeing it on TV practically makes it look like 2 different racetracks.
7/27/2010 1:00pm
It is the same for most motosport racing. Go see a F1 race up close and you will never want to watch on TV again,same for Drag racing and most others, TV does not do it justice, Hell go stand on the sideline of a NFL or College football game and you can feel the hits when the ground shakes.
MX45
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7/27/2010 1:04pm
A few years ago Mt Morris always used a heli cam and I think one year they tried a cable cam. More of those please. I like the epic wide shot type of stuff.

Also, most shots are straight on of the rider coming right at the camera (especially in sx). You don't see the jump faces, the ruts on the faces, the options that they are jumping over, the front sides of whoops etc. So camera angles that "profile" the track and jumps better from a side perspective would help.
Even more rear view stuff. Give the viewer as close to the rider's perspective as possible.

Speaking of which. Helmet cams are awesome. They have to be the best way to show the "casual" moto audience all the intricacies of the track. And even better during the race to get a "race perspective" with a block pass or two or the squeeze into the first turn. However helmet cams have gone to wider and wider field of views. The wider FoV's really squish the perspective which does the speed and amplitude an injustice.
I'd like to see more use of helmet cam footage, but with not-so-wide field of view.

I love the fixed cameras on the track that are on the drop offs and sometimes on the backside of a jump. They give a good, but brief, sense of speed as the riders zing over them. Alot like the fixed wall cams in nascar. The doppler sound effect adds to that also.

Since I've touched on it...sound is just as important as sight. From one broadcast to the next, the sound seems inconsistent. One week the "on track" sounds are clear as day and the announcing is muted. The next week will be the exact opposite. Getting a good trackside "sound perspective" would add to the perception of speed.
Note, for the web broadcasts I can usually adjust the sound on my pc to my liking, but on the cable broadcast the on-track sound usually sounds distant.
FreshTopEnd
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7/27/2010 1:12pm
Not only speed, but the steepness of hills.

It may just be a factor of perspective in 2D media. The sensation from a lens-view at the top of Mt. St Helens and standing there are going to be different, in stills and video.

Maybe 3D TV will make a difference.

That's not to say that there can't be more improvements in production value, as there have been already.
johansen
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7/27/2010 11:33pm
Interesting topic. In my opinion there were better camera angles before mx sports took over, compare Budds Creek 2008 to 2010.

As a amateur videographer I know it's really hard to find views that make the riding justice. Maybe they could send one or two cameras out who try to capture some artistic shots that doesn't necessarily cover the racing the best. For example to get a good feeling of the steepness of a hill you need to place the camera really low at the bottom.
teggers
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7/27/2010 11:46pm Edited Date/Time 7/27/2010 11:46pm
I miss the music.
JW381
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7/28/2010 2:46am
johansen wrote:
Interesting topic. In my opinion there were better camera angles before mx sports took over, compare Budds Creek 2008 to 2010. As a amateur videographer I...
Interesting topic. In my opinion there were better camera angles before mx sports took over, compare Budds Creek 2008 to 2010.

As a amateur videographer I know it's really hard to find views that make the riding justice. Maybe they could send one or two cameras out who try to capture some artistic shots that doesn't necessarily cover the racing the best. For example to get a good feeling of the steepness of a hill you need to place the camera really low at the bottom.
That's why I love, and almost prefer, the Racer X post shows.
crf250pilot
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7/28/2010 2:59am Edited Date/Time 7/28/2010 3:04am
I've been complaining for years about the sorry coverage. Hell I saw a video of Rodger Decoster taking a hot lap around the track in a late 70's or early 80's race and they had cameras all over him. Showed him shifting gears and everything. My gf said the coverage of the original "On any Sunday" movie was much better then todays even. One thing that should be mandatory on each track is to have one section of a minimum length where the camera follows the riders like they do at Daytona with the mule, or even use a moving camera on a track system kind of like the rabbit at the dog races or maybe even swing from a cable or mechanical arm. Would be nice to see cams mounted on helmets, rear fenders, etc. Dont even get me started on the sound! Just my long winded rant. Thank you for listening.
Jefro98
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7/28/2010 3:17am
lostboy819 wrote:
It is the same for most motosport racing. Go see a F1 race up close and you will never want to watch on TV again,same for...
It is the same for most motosport racing. Go see a F1 race up close and you will never want to watch on TV again,same for Drag racing and most others, TV does not do it justice, Hell go stand on the sideline of a NFL or College football game and you can feel the hits when the ground shakes.
Exactly.
F1 and MotoGP looks slow on TV.
The TV camera's have incredible zoom and stay with the cars / bikes for a long time.
You don't actually see the speed the come upon you or move away from you.
Kinetic1
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7/28/2010 3:44am
We all know you can't mount a camera to a bike and get a watchable video. But maybe they should mount a few on various bikes anyway to give the casual observer a concept of how rough it really is and how much the bike actually moves. Just show it for brief sections at a time. That would be enough to give some perspective to the "fan".

Just guessing here but I wonder if they don't do much handheld, low camera work because there are too many people in the way at a national?

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