KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

12/20/2024 8:13am
Motofinne wrote:
https://www.akv.at/akv-newsroom/presse/ktm-ag-information-1-tagsatzung-insolvenzverfahrenCheck that out and translate it.This is looking really bad and just like i expected. Reorganization measures: Payments to subsidiaries of the KTM Group that...

https://www.akv.at/akv-newsroom/presse/ktm-ag-information-1-tagsatzung-insolvenzverfahren

Check that out and translate it.

This is looking really bad and just like i expected. 

Reorganization measures: 
Payments to subsidiaries of the KTM Group that are not essential to operations have been stopped. As a result, several subsequent insolvencies of other KTM companies are now expected. The two other KTM companies that are already insolvent are essential to the continued operation of the KTM Group and are being financially supported by KTM AG by continuing to purchase the services and goods from them.

In order to reduce costs, the withdrawal from MotoGP Moto3/Moto2 is planned.

In order to reduce production costs, the possibilities of (partial) relocation of production are being examined.

Production is to be halted until after the restructuring plan has been approved.

clearance sales at retailers


 

Clearance sales at retailers!!!

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Money
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12/20/2024 8:19am

Is ktm going to be able to pay out amateur racers contingency 

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MxAddic
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12/20/2024 8:28am
Money wrote:

Is ktm going to be able to pay out amateur racers contingency 

The state is having to make good on the back pay for the workers. I wonder if they will cover the contingency?

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Beagle
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12/20/2024 8:36am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2024 8:39am
Team403 wrote:
Maybe Troy Lee had a crystal ball.Here is something I don’t understand- I keep hearing about fines if they don’t race - sponsorship obligations etc...

Maybe Troy Lee had a crystal ball.

Here is something I don’t understand- I keep hearing about fines if they don’t race - sponsorship obligations etc .  If you file these folks essentially get in line.  Why would you continue to shell out 70M for fear of losing what 10M in fines?  Seems like if shit is really hitting the fan you go all in on a hard reset.  Bring in new leadership and salvage what’s left.  I guess what I am saying why would you risk the whole ship to race? Surely the general public would have some empathy for trying navigate troubled waters - cut backs are expected.   Where am I off?

 

The fines for withdrawing from MotoGP would be imposed by Dorna, MotoGP organizer, not the sponsors.

Obviously I don't know the amount but it had to be more than 1 year expenses to force Kawasaki to come back as "Hayate Racing Team" in 2009.

KTM doubles down

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The Shop

Team403
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12/20/2024 8:38am

I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the OEM?  Hope the dealers don’t get screwed.

As a fan/owner of the machines themselves im here for the manufacturing peeps and dealers. 

mx317
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12/20/2024 8:43am
Team403 wrote:
I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the...

I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the OEM?  Hope the dealers don’t get screwed.

As a fan/owner of the machines themselves im here for the manufacturing peeps and dealers. 

If I remember correctly, we were credited on our parts account when someone used their contingency money at the shop. KTM may do it differently though.

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GrapeApe
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12/20/2024 8:54am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2024 8:55am
Team403 wrote:
I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the...

I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the OEM?  Hope the dealers don’t get screwed.

As a fan/owner of the machines themselves im here for the manufacturing peeps and dealers. 

Nobody knows anything about the race teams or contingency or any of that stuff because we don't know the finances of KTM North America. They may have the ability to keep their marketing efforts afloat for a while without the help of Austria. Or Maybe they collapse the moment their funding is cut, we don't know.

MotoGP is a totally different deal.

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Team403
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12/20/2024 8:56am
Team403 wrote:
I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the...

I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the OEM?  Hope the dealers don’t get screwed.

As a fan/owner of the machines themselves im here for the manufacturing peeps and dealers. 

GrapeApe wrote:
Nobody knows anything about the race teams or contingency or any of that stuff because we don't know the finances of KTM North America. They may...

Nobody knows anything about the race teams or contingency or any of that stuff because we don't know the finances of KTM North America. They may have the ability to keep their marketing efforts afloat for a while without the help of Austria. Or Maybe they collapse the moment their funding is cut, we don't know.

MotoGP is a totally different deal.

Does Roger have his CV on the street? That is the question 

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wvumounty
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12/20/2024 8:56am
MxAddic wrote:

The state is having to make good on the back pay for the workers. I wonder if they will cover the contingency?

Pulp mentioned that Daniel Blair would be joining for a new weekly podcast.

Is orange brigade done?

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soggy
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12/20/2024 9:01am
MxAddic wrote:

The state is having to make good on the back pay for the workers. I wonder if they will cover the contingency?

wvumounty wrote:

Pulp mentioned that Daniel Blair would be joining for a new weekly podcast.

Is orange brigade done?

poor Blair.  No more broadcast gig which he still won't share details on.  goes to KTM, loses all his riders to star and then KTM goes bankrupt.

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wvumounty
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12/20/2024 9:01am
Team403 wrote:

Does Roger have his CV on the street? That is the question 

And poor dunge. Coffee, intense and now ktm.

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GrapeApe
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12/20/2024 9:18am
Team403 wrote:
I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the...

I am curious how the contingency program pays the dealer.   I assume you use your credits at the dealer and they get reimbursed by the OEM?  Hope the dealers don’t get screwed.

As a fan/owner of the machines themselves im here for the manufacturing peeps and dealers. 

GrapeApe wrote:
Nobody knows anything about the race teams or contingency or any of that stuff because we don't know the finances of KTM North America. They may...

Nobody knows anything about the race teams or contingency or any of that stuff because we don't know the finances of KTM North America. They may have the ability to keep their marketing efforts afloat for a while without the help of Austria. Or Maybe they collapse the moment their funding is cut, we don't know.

MotoGP is a totally different deal.

Team403 wrote:

Does Roger have his CV on the street? That is the question 

Roger may have to travel to the races on the transporter and share a room with 3 other dudes at a Motel 6. lol

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MxAddic
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12/20/2024 9:25am
wvumounty wrote:

Pulp mentioned that Daniel Blair would be joining for a new weekly podcast.

Is orange brigade done?

I believe it was stated the riders are under contract when he left.

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Team403
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12/20/2024 9:41am

We race off road and collect some contingency here and there from GG and KTM  but do not depend on it.  On the other end of spectrum are those amateur families highly dependent on the program.  They must be really scratching there head about now.  Hope it works out for them.

1
12/20/2024 10:13am
Team403 wrote:
We race off road and collect some contingency here and there from GG and KTM  but do not depend on it.  On the other end of...

We race off road and collect some contingency here and there from GG and KTM  but do not depend on it.  On the other end of spectrum are those amateur families highly dependent on the program.  They must be really scratching there head about now.  Hope it works out for them.

Lots of head scratching going on about now.

2
12/20/2024 10:18am
Team403 wrote:
We race off road and collect some contingency here and there from GG and KTM  but do not depend on it.  On the other end of...

We race off road and collect some contingency here and there from GG and KTM  but do not depend on it.  On the other end of spectrum are those amateur families highly dependent on the program.  They must be really scratching there head about now.  Hope it works out for them.

i have certain customers that ride certain classes and certain bikes to make enough contingency money to keep racing. This is gonna hit those type of families hard. 

3
12/20/2024 11:00am
Team403 wrote:
We race off road and collect some contingency here and there from GG and KTM  but do not depend on it.  On the other end of...

We race off road and collect some contingency here and there from GG and KTM  but do not depend on it.  On the other end of spectrum are those amateur families highly dependent on the program.  They must be really scratching there head about now.  Hope it works out for them.

mgifracing wrote:
i have certain customers that ride certain classes and certain bikes to make enough contingency money to keep racing. This is gonna hit those type of...

i have certain customers that ride certain classes and certain bikes to make enough contingency money to keep racing. This is gonna hit those type of families hard. 

I wonder if we'll see people buying other brands who are dependent on contingency money (not knowing the certainty of KTM's immediate and long term future).

1
12/20/2024 11:59am

Serious question, I was in the market for a 25 350sxf, should I wait? Is their going to be better pricing? Also would this affect dealers getting parts?

3
12/20/2024 12:04pm

I wonder if we'll see people buying other brands who are dependent on contingency money (not knowing the certainty of KTM's immediate and long term future).

Problem here in Kansas is the Japanese oem's don't pay in as many classes as the KTM group. 

1
12/20/2024 12:15pm

I wonder if we'll see people buying other brands who are dependent on contingency money (not knowing the certainty of KTM's immediate and long term future).

mgifracing wrote:

Problem here in Kansas is the Japanese oem's don't pay in as many classes as the KTM group. 

Oh, I didn't realize it varied by state. Good to know.

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MxAddic
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12/20/2024 2:14pm Edited Date/Time 12/20/2024 2:18pm

I am having a hard time with the numbers. .14 return for liquidation is hard to imagine. That is only 400Mil on 2.9Bil.. How much is the inventory worth? I call BS here.

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FreshTopEnd
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12/20/2024 3:06pm
MxAddic wrote:
I am having a hard time with the numbers. .14 return for liquidation is hard to imagine. That is only 400Mil on 2.9Bil.. How much is...

I am having a hard time with the numbers. .14 return for liquidation is hard to imagine. That is only 400Mil on 2.9Bil.. How much is the inventory worth? I call BS here.

Almost certainly that is net return after all transaction costs, where the devil is in the details on liquidating inventory - whole bikes and components not yet fed into final production of a bike, tooling, etc.  Institutional creditors would farm that out.  There was a surge of Ohlins suspension on EBay after Canondale liquidated, banks weren't the sellers.

Then there's time value of money waiting on return in both scenarios, lawyer and other adminstration fees, management opportunity cost.  It's also speculation after crunching numbers, as is the return on payments if it continues as a going concern (which to me anyway is more likely than not, and it seems the creditors lean that way as well).

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MxAddic
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12/20/2024 3:20pm Edited Date/Time 12/20/2024 3:23pm
Almost certainly that is net return after all transaction costs, where the devil is in the details on liquidating inventory - whole bikes and components not...

Almost certainly that is net return after all transaction costs, where the devil is in the details on liquidating inventory - whole bikes and components not yet fed into final production of a bike, tooling, etc.  Institutional creditors would farm that out.  There was a surge of Ohlins suspension on EBay after Canondale liquidated, banks weren't the sellers.

Then there's time value of money waiting on return in both scenarios, lawyer and other adminstration fees, management opportunity cost.  It's also speculation after crunching numbers, as is the return on payments if it continues as a going concern (which to me anyway is more likely than not, and it seems the creditors lean that way as well).

Absolutely, thanks for pointing that out. I would not want folks to think I thought otherwise. Maybe I am crazy but wouldn't the factories and brand be worth a billion or so to venture capitalists or hedge fund?

12/20/2024 3:58pm
Serious question, I was in the market for a 25 350sxf, should I wait? Is their going to be better pricing? Also would this affect dealers...

Serious question, I was in the market for a 25 350sxf, should I wait? Is their going to be better pricing? Also would this affect dealers getting parts?

Yes, yes, unknown!

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FreshTopEnd
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12/20/2024 4:44pm
Almost certainly that is net return after all transaction costs, where the devil is in the details on liquidating inventory - whole bikes and components not...

Almost certainly that is net return after all transaction costs, where the devil is in the details on liquidating inventory - whole bikes and components not yet fed into final production of a bike, tooling, etc.  Institutional creditors would farm that out.  There was a surge of Ohlins suspension on EBay after Canondale liquidated, banks weren't the sellers.

Then there's time value of money waiting on return in both scenarios, lawyer and other adminstration fees, management opportunity cost.  It's also speculation after crunching numbers, as is the return on payments if it continues as a going concern (which to me anyway is more likely than not, and it seems the creditors lean that way as well).

MxAddic wrote:
Absolutely, thanks for pointing that out. I would not want folks to think I thought otherwise. Maybe I am crazy but wouldn't the factories and brand...

Absolutely, thanks for pointing that out. I would not want folks to think I thought otherwise. Maybe I am crazy but wouldn't the factories and brand be worth a billion or so to venture capitalists or hedge fund?

That's essentially what prospects for new capital will play out - more value being perceived as a going concern than in liquidation.  And a reorg may effectively do that by spinning the assets out to NewCo and sink the debts into a liquidation entity, at least that becomes an alternative in the states (although usually in a mass product liability scenario, and GM may have done that in its BK to get out from under pension liability).  But I would expect EU/Austrian laws to be more constraining on that sort of shell game, so defer to those with a better sense of that than I have.

But to me anyway buying the brand it doesn't seem as easy a windfall as for example the people who bought the Hostess brand when they shut down.  It's a lot easier to find someone to make twinkies with non-union labor.    But Triumph now is the same play and seems to be making progress, but in the larger motorcycling world it has a deeper history behind the brand value.

Given the experience with the financial genius who ran this into the ground I'm not sure VC types are desirable or plausible.  VCs tend to want big returns on risk, very high multiples.  They tend to risk one big score from 10+ different prospects that will fail, which is hard to see paying off here.  My cynicism is they'd be inclined to bleed it out.  Kvarme, a rich finance guy who seems to have gotten in as passion/vanity project and pulled the trigger pretty quickly when he left, with a lot of people holding the bag.  Money also isn't as free as it was before interest rates escalated, and easy debt is what drives a lot of this sort of overreaching.  

Most seem to think KTM will have more value as a going concern, which will ding pretty much everyone in the short term apart from consumers willing to buy overstock 24s.  Saw a dealer here with 24 250SX two strokes going for $6649, up to $4k off some larger bore four strokes.

Nothing is certain at this stage, lots of contingencies still to play out, unforeseen as well as a range of predictable possibilities.

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BAMX
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12/21/2024 8:16pm
Money wrote:

Is ktm going to be able to pay out amateur racers contingency 

My Gas Gas contingency was good at the local shop today.

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PTshox
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12/21/2024 9:19pm
Serious question, I was in the market for a 25 350sxf, should I wait? Is their going to be better pricing? Also would this affect dealers...

Serious question, I was in the market for a 25 350sxf, should I wait? Is their going to be better pricing? Also would this affect dealers getting parts?

Yes, yes, unknown!

I agree with this guy on this one.... Be patient. Don't chase it. It will come to you (the deals). Pressure is just starting on the KTM group to generate cash flow.  

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12/21/2024 10:10pm

FTE Great points. I would be surprised to see KTM go away as a mfger- there is a lot of good there. No doubt bad decisions were made. Someone didn’t keep a close watch on the business pulse (sales – sell through) and just keep the throttle pinned for continued growth. Sadly this is common

 I don’t think a VC will touch this thing. Certainly not a Silicon valley based or minded VC. Valley type VC’s don’t look for these type of deals imo. They want new markets that can be exploited with 1000x returns. And to your point they will make 10 bets in new markets looking for that unicorn. Maybe it’s a private equity deal? Smart money though will dig deep into the books and part of the deal will be punting the management team that drove the bus into the tree. You don’t want the same driver back in the drivers seat (did you see the Co-CEO position?).  Depending on equity of Stefan Pierer … this could be a problem. Will he take a back seat? He was the top guy when the buss hit the tree. But he also took KTM from a off brand into a MXGP/ SX / AMA national winning enterprise producing bikes Japan based mfger's wouldn't make and growing the business. In other words he was paying attention to the market when others were not. How do you balance this? Who wants this project? When your money could be chasing something more interesting with a broader addressable market...... Personally - I think they will survive but it will not look the same as it does currently. I think there will be some great deals in the next 2-5-9 months on your favorite KTM models. And if Yamaha is paying attention now is the time for a e-Start YZ250X and YZ300X as well as a YZ350F and FX.  The market is coming to them... just grab it!     

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FreshTopEnd
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12/22/2024 4:00pm

I'm pretty sure that's what is contemplated with additional investors, can't imagine they're going to market with new shares or bonds.  As long as it brings management discipline and focus restoring the core business, not the barbarians at the gate deal where it gets strip mined.

1
12/30/2024 5:01am

Any new updates on this deal? 

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