Eye-Opening Observation at recent Amateur MX-Where's the future??

AdamB
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6/29/2010 10:05pm
From a promoters point of view...this is a bad thing (no 50's etc.) if you aren't getting the kids at a young age then they are...
From a promoters point of view...this is a bad thing (no 50's etc.) if you aren't getting the kids at a young age then they are hitting another sport. I know this has been brought up before, all these topics are in cycles, but the bikes are way too expensive, racing, practice has stayed the same prices for years, bikes are astronomical and people just can't afford to buy them. Then you have practice which is killing racing.

I have a group of friends, they love to call themselves racers, they don't race, they practice, they are practicers not racers plain and simple =)

S
Ryno784 wrote:
Sondra you seem to have seen my point, very clear and very freightening for a promoter. If the +40 class is the largest now, +50 will...
Sondra you seem to have seen my point, very clear and very freightening for a promoter. If the +40 class is the largest now, +50 will be next and we'll have 2 85's lined up for SR Mini.

I hope I'm wrong, I love this stuff.

And as for racing for a $5 trophy, heck Roc we used to do it all the time...I was never concerned about the trophy I was just wanting to beat everyone else on the track that day.
The $5 trophy and pride may have been plenty back in the day, But in todays world of climbing bike prices and frail economy its really not... I can go out to the local fairgrounds on any weekend and race my stock car in the lowest classes and a top 5-10 finish reward covers cost of participating plus some.
So I can see how the interest to get started in our sport is shrinking or just going elsewhere. Somthing needs to be done so the average joe can continue to raise there kids in the sport they love without worrying about going broke because of it.
jmx411
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6/29/2010 10:40pm
the sport has been slowly dyeing in attendance and popularity since they quit showing the races on espn and went to speed. the average sports fan wont ever watch speed.
FlaNard
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6/29/2010 11:19pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2010 11:19pm
Our gates have had fewer and fewer racers since 4 strokes took over. Just sayin. Keep whistling to the graveyard...
twizzler
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6/29/2010 11:55pm
The sport of amateur motocross is dying right before our eyes. And sadly, the powers that be are doing nothing about it due to them lining their pockets with greed.

The Shop

MXinOC
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6/30/2010 2:40am
Excellent topic that needs to be resolved. I feel it is time for all serious enthusiasts to come together in a club or league that WILL actually do something that the AMA is suppose to be doing but is NOT. Allowing Youthstream to come into the U.S. is the beginning of the end! The SOD Minor League Motocross Group is dedicated to the future of our sport. They're purpose driven mission is to become known as "America's Factory pumping out new motocross talent".
RMZ819
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6/30/2010 3:11am
Larry wrote:
Having the 50 classes disapear would be the best thing to happen to moto since Rodger DeCoster showed up in the States.
LOL, The 50 class is the core of the sport kid. No 50's means no 60's down the line ect. ect.. The sport start dying 4 yr ago. People are just starting to notice.

IMO, The hot 50's are a big problem . A 3 grand buy in for a bike and then another 500 for gear is way to steep for mom and dad to see if little Jimmy or little Sally might like this sport.
alphado
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6/30/2010 4:25am
With Joey, he raced a PW50 then a TTR50. We loved it, bikes ran forever with just normal maintenance. Then we made the fatal error of getting a KTM 50SX. What a huge mistake. When we would go ride, he would literally ride the whole time. That KTM needed so much work to keep it going that I had to pretty much give up riding myself.

We got rid of that bike after a couple months and I moved him to a Kawasaki KLX110 that I had as a pitbike. He rode that for a year without any issues. Now at 8 he is riding a 1987 Kawasaki KDX80 that we got from his Great Uncle. I restored it and it too is pretty much bullet proof.

Racing is pretty much done for us now, $100+ entry a day to race for us is too much. We still like to ride when we can, but have found other things to do. He is playing baseball now and I run and just started racing mountain bikes.

I have a KX250 that I picked up last year. MX racing is too rich for my blood anymore, it sucks.
hacker 522
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Orangeville, PA, USA
6/30/2010 5:56am
I attended my first trials event last weekend. It was like a time warp to when local moto was about having a good time. The youth classes were promoted and recognized. I was shocked to actually find pro and expert riders walking the youth course encouraging and giving riding tips to the little ones. Trials is obscure and off the map so to speak but that is the beauty of it. It's way more grassroots than any local moto event. It allows riders to showcase their talent, not the size of the parents wallet. No injuries all weekend. Parents were cheering on their kids and everyone elses. The entry fee is the same as moto but seat time is much greater. No Tony allessism anywhere to be found. Everyone was simply having fun riding and watching motorcycles. My kids will have trials bikes before superminis.
jkkt
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Atlanta, GA, USA
6/30/2010 6:18am
For the record I heard that Cobra is building a 125 two stroke motorcycle...should be fun !

S
TeamGreen wrote:
Miss "CMC" is still on her game...
This rumor has been mentioned on and off for years. Last time I talked to Sean about it, he was focusing on the 65 and it's success before he moved to the 125 option. (but it is something he wants to do eventually) Not sure they have met their goals on the 65 yet. Personally I hope they can get the 125 done sooner then later. There need to be more options for a rider in the 125 market.
alphado
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6/30/2010 6:24am
Cobra 125 = $15,000?
rocrac
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Indianapolis, IN, USA
6/30/2010 6:37am
alphado wrote:
Cobra 125 = $15,000?
That's exactly what I was thinking.

Cheap 125s that teenagers and dads can fix affordably on their own is what this sport needs IMHO.
jkkt
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6/30/2010 6:41am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2010 6:45am
alphado wrote:
Cobra 125 = $15,000?
Surely not....but you never know. lol



I do know that we can purchase a 250 or 450 for less out the door then we are paying for 125's. When we can find them.....I was told there there is a dealer on the east coast who has tried to buy up as many 125's as possible so he can control the prices when a rider needs one....NOT COOL.



And riders are needing them, as parts are just not available for the 125 easily if at all......



So here we sit, paying a premium for 125's and having major issues getting parts, but we just felt moving from the 85 to a 4 stroke was not the right move for our racer.



Bring on the Cobra 125! I would love to work with Sean and Phil again. At least you would have a choice.....crossing my fingers this will be an option in the next 3 yrs before my son is out of the 125 classes.

IntenseRider
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6/30/2010 7:01am
Ryno784 wrote:
OK, so I was away from racing in the District for a few years, 5 or 6 to be more precise. Coming back and racing the...
OK, so I was away from racing in the District for a few years, 5 or 6 to be more precise. Coming back and racing the past several weeks in the region one thing stands out.... the lack of youth riders....

What used to be our largest classes, the 50cc and 65cc, are now the smallest. There was once a time when we had to split the 65 class and the 50's were always full gates. Now they race for 3rd out of 3! And the +40 class was the biggest on the day!

Making it worse is Yamaha not producing the PW50, TTR50 or the Raptor 50 for 2011....Are the manufacturers throwing up their hands on moto? Who's coming in to become the next MC or Carmichael? Will there be less competition in the ranks thus making for less competitive riders....I don't have the answers, but I can say there's a storm on the horizon and those of us who hold this sport close to our heart may be in for some unfortunate changes.

I can understand the argument against the 4 strokes and the expenses of the bikes possibly pricing people out of the sport, but these are small 2 strokes that haven't increased in operating costs in years. So what happened and what's happening now? Will the market open up to Chinese products, will there be a rebound with the economy or is the sport ultimately doomed?

Comments, rants, sarcasm....all welcome.
What's funny is that I found some old receipts the other week for my 82 KX80 and 83 KX125. The 80 was $865 OTD and the 125 was $1834 OTD. I even managed to sell the 80 for $650, so for a little more than another grand, I was into a new 125.

I had a paper route (remember those?) and was actually able to save the money I needed myself.

Now, if a kid wants to earn enough to buy a new bike, they have to save $5-6K for a 250F and there aren't a lot of summer jobs that pay that much. Or, you can save and buy a used 250F, but you run the risk of getting a bike that will grenade on you and then you're out $2K to be able to ride again.

I agree that we still need a reasonably priced 125 smoker that people can more easily buy and maintain. For me, if I wanted a bike, I had to pay for it myself - so I busted hump and made it happen. It seems that all we have done is, for the most part, eliminate the possibility of a kid "earning" their new bike and forcing Mom and Dad to subsidize the cost or racing. A new $4K 125 from the Big 5 may not be the answer, but it seems to be a step in the right direction.
aggiemoto99
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San Antonio, TX, USA
6/30/2010 7:49am
All good points...

Wish dc would take note!

I think the ultimate best point made here was this sport has NO payoff for 99.99 percent who attempt.

15th week in and week out in the outdoors might be enough to pay your bills week to week to go racing IF your lucky and on a team who "thinks" you have potential...

But we all know there are riders within the top 15 loosing money to go racing...
And considering what type of money they put INTO the sport to get there....

It's just sad. MX promoters are lucky MX is so addicting and fun...because there is NO incentive for riders otherwise.

With the shitty economy..and tight promotors...etc...what used to be decent regional series with decent contingencies is now nothing, literally...and for it the series have died, surprise surprise.

And yes, I think its clearly evident that valve munchers have not helped us (can anyone make the argument they have actually helped the sport - screw trying to prove they have hurt it....we all know that's a loosing battle with powers in charge?)
burnside
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6/30/2010 8:05am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2010 8:11am
burnside
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6/30/2010 8:11am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2010 8:13am
BMX (and skateboarding) will ALWAYS be much more popular than MX because they are so accessible, kids don't need to rely on their dads to do it and thats a great, liberating feeling for any kid. But I bet if you asked any kids at the skatepark, they'd jump at the chance to ride some moto if they (or their family) could afford it. Motocross is awesome, but one thing it will never be is accessible so I don't think we need to lose any hair about these sports being more popular. BMX only started when kids couldn't get out on motorcycles, hence the name... bicycle motocross.



pie8man
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Loveland, CO, USA
6/30/2010 8:39am
One thing promoters have lost over the years is the willingness to send off two races at the same time. I know that part of why they do this is to make sure they get the $$$ from every person wanting to ride 2 classes but there is nothing wrong with sending the 5 to 6 A guys in front of the 10-12 B guys (they can't ride both of those classes). Even if it only shortens the day by 2 races and adds one lap to each race it is worth it. Send the 450C and 250C out in the same gate just for fun and figure it out in scoring. Getting a holeshot against 20 to 30 guys is a far better feeling than just beating 15, then of course I ride a 450!!
motomike137
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6/30/2010 8:48am
Adam43 wrote:
Too many classes, and equipment costs are off the charts.

This isn't the same sport as it was even 10 years ago.
Nail on the head Adam43... the class structure has been whacked out for some time now and the four stroke revolution has upped the price of poker. Combine that with a economy in the shitter and ever increasing costs at the racetrack (gate fees, entry fees) and bada bing Moto is in trouble!
Moto East Mag
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6/30/2010 8:59am
Moto is becoming more and more of a niche sport. The everyday person just doesn't think about going out and jumping triples on the weekend. Everybody said the X Games would help, but I think people view extreme sports as something that crazy people do on TV.
Maybe freestyle has accelerate the notion that motocross bikes are something that only a select few people ride.
Bikes and medical care are expensive, tracks are distant and expensive to ride, etc.
And when someone shows up to a race and see a Fun Mover, six bikes, and pit setups that pros had 20 years ago, I think there is an intimidation factor.

Still, our local race series (MDRA) is thriving and the gates are packed.
thatdad
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6/30/2010 9:04am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2010 9:08am
My kids (ages AMA 12 and 13) have both been racing since they were 5 and both started on pw50s. You could buy those for $1000, ride the snot out of them around the house and not piss off the neighbors, race them with full gates on weekends, and then sell them at the end of the season for $750. Idiot parents with the "next big thing" mentality ruined the pw class.

We moved up to ktm 50s and cobras. I spent a fortune and never stopped wrenching all weekend. One mud moto and a clutch was toast. We broke ktm and cobra frames, fried stators, and on and on. The bikes were loud and the neghbors were pissed within ten minutes. I think I have tinnitus from those things.

We then moved up to ktm 65s and they were pricey but all in all pretty good bikes. My older boy even notched out a Lorettas win on one, so that was cool.

The 85s are still reliable, reasonably priced and competitive out of the box with some suspension work. A fresh stock ktm or suzuki 85 would run with most of the mod bikes. Superminis are just stupid and when you turn them into 112s you may as well be back on cobras.

I moved my older boy to yz125s and they are wonderful. I am not looking forward to the 4 stroke.

wardy
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6/30/2010 9:10am
From a promoters point of view...this is a bad thing (no 50's etc.) if you aren't getting the kids at a young age then they are...
From a promoters point of view...this is a bad thing (no 50's etc.) if you aren't getting the kids at a young age then they are hitting another sport. I know this has been brought up before, all these topics are in cycles, but the bikes are way too expensive, racing, practice has stayed the same prices for years, bikes are astronomical and people just can't afford to buy them. Then you have practice which is killing racing.

I have a group of friends, they love to call themselves racers, they don't race, they practice, they are practicers not racers plain and simple =)

S
x2.

ten years ago in IL you had one place to practice. but we had 175 racing events a season.

if you wanted to ride, you raced there was no place to ride, or practice.

today we have every motocross track having practice, and small riding parks all over the state.

what is going on.

the district has lost 1200 racers since 2008. riding parks have many riders riding old two strokes. kids and parents in this state are racing Hare Scrambles. Why?

you show up and race a HS race, then you go home. you don't sit all day.

many things need to be adjusted to keep riders trying to race, we need to make the sport safer, we need to make it affordable while still be able as a promoter to earn a living.

Mainly we have to offer quality events to make sure riders feel that they are getting value for thier dollar.

the sport will change a bunch in the next 5 years, and hopefully we can get back to numbers we seen in the early part of this decade.

now. anyone that has been in the sport any lenght of time knows this goes in cycles. every decade there are lean times. i feel we are just going through this like other times.
Larry
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6/30/2010 9:11am
karnivool wrote:
NO 50's? I saw James Stewart on a 50 years ago, and Robbie Reynard, Kevin Windham, Jonathon Schimp,and a bunch of others, without that experience, they...
NO 50's? I saw James Stewart on a 50 years ago, and Robbie Reynard, Kevin Windham, Jonathon Schimp,and a bunch of others, without that experience, they wouldn't have been hucking triples on their kx65's the next year...this sport needs all levels...

the BAN is killer...probably what ur seeing...
JS and the others you mentioned would be just as fast w/o 50's.
Kids hucking triples is one of our sports big problems.
wardy
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6/30/2010 9:14am
Oh and you can't work at Mcdonalds, buy a bike, race, and have enough money to pay any bills today.

back in the 70's I was a oil change, car wash dude at 17, at the local car dealership. I barely made enough to race on, but it was done. work 6 days a week to race on sunday.


today that simply isn't possible. price of bikes is really high, and it's not the dealers fault but rather non forward thinking oem's who rather raise prices and block sales of cheaper product then to increase numbers.

this is a 10 pager.....
twizzler
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6/30/2010 9:36am
Buying a new mx bike you are stuck buying the highest end most expensive model. It would be like you going to buy a new Chevy car and the only car Chevy offers is a Corvette. Not many can afford a Corvette.

Ryno784
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6/30/2010 9:47am
wardy wrote:
Oh and you can't work at Mcdonalds, buy a bike, race, and have enough money to pay any bills today. back in the 70's I was...
Oh and you can't work at Mcdonalds, buy a bike, race, and have enough money to pay any bills today.

back in the 70's I was a oil change, car wash dude at 17, at the local car dealership. I barely made enough to race on, but it was done. work 6 days a week to race on sunday.


today that simply isn't possible. price of bikes is really high, and it's not the dealers fault but rather non forward thinking oem's who rather raise prices and block sales of cheaper product then to increase numbers.

this is a 10 pager.....
Wardy you made a point I had failed to make but observed recently, the HS movement. You're right, too much down time between the motos in MX and makes for a very loooong day.

I ran a GP recently for the first time and loved it, because you race for an hour and you're done. It ran the entire MX track then a loop through the woods, about 7 min laps. I liked it because it was still 85% motocross, with a breather through the woods and I didn't have to wait for hours in between motos.

Some promoters tried to run split programs for a while but I don't think it worked because the dad who raced along with junior had to be there all day anyway...And to be honest I really haven't seen gate fees increase here much, still 20-25 bucks a class. I think there a little less track prep maybe and short motos and practice so they don't have to spend so much on fuel etc... to prep it.

And in 1982-83 I mowed yeards and had more disposable income than I do now...lol I bought all the right stuff for my bitchin 1982 YZ 125. Euro plates, Hi Point Boots and JT gear, all bought by a 13 year old....My parents did not fund my racing at all...And I won the State Championship funding myself along the way. Man things were so different and thinking about that now, I pulled off a great couple years down there in Texas back in the day.
mjskier
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6/30/2010 10:04am
Around here motos are 4 laps on average.
So pay your AMA registration, your local organization registration (we have 2 competing ones in Colorado), your track entrance fee, your class fee, then basically waste all day for 8 laps (plus the few practice laps)
I make it sound a bit worse than it is because for people racing the entire series the AMA and organization is a one time deal. But for the guy who just wants to give it a try at the local track it might as well be an event fee.

For the local HS, you pay the track fee, class fee, ride for 2 hours or until you are sick of it (whichever comes first) and go home, or keep riding after the event since you've already paid the entrance fee. Pretty easy choice really.
dr516
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Visalia, CA, USA
6/30/2010 10:19am
Larry wrote:
Having the 50 classes disapear would be the best thing to happen to moto since Rodger DeCoster showed up in the States.
bt260 wrote:
no way, without the 50 class there's no moto milfs
cdm806 wrote:
without six different 50cc motos, the day ends 3 hours quicker! now if they could do something about the 4 classes (8 motos) of minis, we'd...
without six different 50cc motos, the day ends 3 hours quicker! now if they could do something about the 4 classes (8 motos) of minis, we'd be onto something. There are WAY too many mini classes at most tracks IMO. Here are the mini classes ran last weekend at a D3 race at MotoMasters.

-50cc Jr Stock 4-6
-50cc Oil Injected 4-8
-50cc Sr Stock 7-8
-65cc 7-11
-85cc 12-15
-Jr Mini 9-11
-Open Mini 10-16

I'm not in favor of doing away with the 50's or minis, but how about having one 50cc class and one mini (65-85, and 150F) class? There, we just went from 14 motos to 4. Now we're looking at four hours earlier I can leave the track and get home.
125 school boy
250 beg, Nov into pro
450 beg, nov, int, pro
+ 25 beg,nov,int,exp
+30 beg,nov,int,exp
+35 beg,nov, int, exp
+40 beg, nov, int, exp
250 school boy through 16
250 x class
450 x class
85 x class
85 11-14
85 14-16
And all the 150 classes’ man those 50s are taking up the whole day
jaeckle
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Hell, WI, USA
6/30/2010 10:22am
Funny but I don't remember the 50cc class even existing during the largest growth cycle of motocross during the 1970's and 1980's. Not sure why people think it is the "future" of the sport now.
jaeckle
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6/30/2010 10:32am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2010 10:33am
whoopsrider
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Keller, TX, USA
6/30/2010 10:35am
All righty then,

I’m a Cobra dealer I see the 50 and 65 world day in and day out. I really enjoy the work and watching the kids have fun living the dream. Now sometimes the 50 parents can make things interesting.

I’d like to offer a few observations from years of racing and being around the 50s and 65s

1. Cost has quadrupled no doubt, the price of a Cobra and KTM just price tons of riders out of the class.
2. The Lead ban saw a serious drop in riders, parents had fear of buying a bike that will be illegal to own and ride.
3. Competition! In the early 90’s everyone rode a PW or trail bike, it leveled the field. Little RiderX didn’t get lapped by the whole field every gate. Once the Cobra bike took the track even average riders against the PW or XR could destroy the class. Leaving little RiderX feeling crappy and parents looking for a more warm and fuzzy sport for their rider. I still see it today, these bikes are so good, riders develop faster if they have the skill, but those that races for fun are left with nowhere to get that feeling of victory.
4. Speeds, with so many riding top quality race bike the speeds have increased. This leaves the parents wondering if little riderX should race. They have true fear seeing a 50 hit a step up double pinned.

As the bikes got better, the cost went up and the risk was amplified into the public eye. Now we are nearly dare devils to Joe Public. Our industry has backed itself into a corner, not allowing class structures that develop riders, not handling but allowing bikes to be modified to the point they bring fear to the outside observer. Instead of finding a way to monitor and control mod bikes we see whole classes for even 4-6 riders and the complete dilution of the PW and XR bikes.

I’d like to see a wide spread restructure of the classes, resulting in the development of our youth riders. I’m mainly talking of the 50 class.



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