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Arlen, TX, USA
Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 4:52pm
Back in 2007, the last year Ricky Carmichael raced against James Stewart, Carmichael made several interesting profound statements: "James and I are going as fast as you can on a motorcycle." And, something along the lines of, "We can only go as fast as our motorcycle is set up." This was from an interview where Ricky discussed how crucial bike set up had become while racing James, and even to the point where Ricky compared it to NASCAR.
I never deeply understood what Ricky meant by those statements at the time, but I think I clearly understand now after watching the latest 450 race from Colorado, and pondering on a few things Bailey said. What follows, is my attempt in trying to explain my perception of what Ricky truly meant by those statements.
David Bailey, in the race today, made the comment how Dungey was essentially racing the same bike that Reed won the championship on last year, which was previously developed by Carmichael, someone who has gone the faster on a motocross bike consistently than anybody else in the world. Now, anybody who has been around the sport the past few years knows Chad Reed is not clicking with the Kawasaki. This is not a thread about how well Chad Reed would be doing now had he stayed with Suzuki, and if you think that, you are missing the point completely. Reed's performance this year is simply just an example of how remarkable Carmichael's comments were on how crucial bike set up is at the professional level in the 450 class. Chad Reed is not racing to his potential, it's obvious, probably because his Kawasaki isn't allowing him to reach the potential he has inside of him. I'm not saying his Kawasaki is a bad bike, it just obviously isn't set up as well as his Gosselaar wrenched, '09 Makita Suzuki. This may have something to do with why he begged Goose to come with him to Kawasaki. Along with getting along great together, Chad obviously knows how great Mike Gosselaar is at setting up a machine!
Now back to the point of this thread. Jason Weigandt and David Bailey, who I believe is right on 98% of the things that come out of his mouth, mentioned how one of the great things about motocross is that if the bike isn't set up properly, the rider can simply compensate for it by getting aggressive. I believe this statement to be profoundly true on the amateur level, but less and less true in this era of professional motocross - especially in the 450 class. Bailey also repeatedly mentioned how Short needed to step it up, dig deep, and, hang it out! That aggressive approach to motocross may have worked rather well in the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, on 250 two-strokes, and even currently in the "Lites" class (all bikes with less powerful engines), but hanging it out in the 450 class on an AMA Motocross track these days is like trying to take a NHRA Drag Car and race it atop Colorado's Pikes Peak!
That's why the racing in the 450 class is boring. Convincing these guys to ride these bikes on the edge, especially the ones with families, is becoming more and more difficult as the risk for serious injury continues to rise; and I believe it is apparent as a spectator the riders realize this. Riders are only going as fast as they feel comfortably safe on their bikes. While watching Regal, Short, Metcalf, and Moss battle, I knew deep down inside, and even predicted to a few of my buddies, that there was going to be a crash because these guys were pushing it to hard (the limits of their bike setup). You could just tell they were riding on the edge. It didn't look easy for them at all. They were fighting their machines, unlike Dungey who effortlessly had a 14-second lead! I was glad when two of the wrecks happened in corners, since I thought to myself, "Well, I'm glad nobody got hurt." But extremely disappointed when Erin Bates was down on the track reporting Moss' broken leg.
If all these guys hung it out like David Baily said, the only person left this series would be Dungey, because he's obviously the only person comfortable running his pace, on a bike that allows him to run that pace comfortably! Reed could have probably hung it out at Budd's Creek last week, but he is wise and knows not to overdo it on the 450.
The 450 bikes simply have more power than riders need. Riders say it, mechanics say it, and it's just a fact: That's why mechanics say there's no need to tune these bad boys to their true potential! 55-horse power engines, that are phenomenal at putting power to the ground (not to mention the massive amounts of engine inertia), has now forced bike set-up to become more important than ever! Because of that, the 450 class has becomes a game of setting up the bike, and because it's a game of setting up the bike, 450 racing has become a sport where the rider races himself - instead of his competitor. Yes, riders end up passing each other during motos, but when was the last time we saw an epic battle in the 450 class? Occasionally you will see riders battle each other, but it often ends in somebody going down, or getting injured.
Also, you don't have to believe my theory, or hypothesis if it doesn't ring true to your own experience in watching 450cc motocross!
Maybe motocross is a young man's game? We seem to get better racing in the lites, with the riders 'hanging it out more'? By the time they reach the opens, they are older, wiser and have more on the line if they crash?
Pourcel was riding on a rougher track with almost half the displacement and was cutting comparable lap times to the big bikes. Do you think this small difference in speed is enough to considerably reduce risk?
How about the 125 days? They have a lot less power, yet there were still runaways. People still got hurt. They were still subject to comfort zones, and bike setup still mattered. Top 80cc riders can cut laptimes similar to the pro ams at LL.
The great thing about moto is that the riders can sometimes rise above minor setup problems. I agree that perhaps setup is becoming increasingly important, but it's part of the evolution of the sport. I think human's ability to not only develop the tools, but the mind and body is the primary reason the racing is somewhat boring and spread out.
It's all about efficiency....even if they were racing 85s in full sized frames, the results would be similar. I don't think even that would be enough to significantly reduce the risk, tighten up racing, and negate bike setup.
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CRtwotwo Whoever thinks 450 are to fast should move to CO...I need pedals about 18 hours ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®
If you write a dissertation like this most people just pass it over. If you want people to read it, short'n it up.
250 2 strokes made it more exciting! Watch Orlando SX 05'. 4, 259, and 22 were scrubbing the triple sooooo hard and whippin it out cause they were "Riding a motorcycle as fast as it could possibly go". It looked like they were pulling the bikes with them over the jumps, rather than "being pulled" over them from the 4 stroke bikes. You walk your dog . . .your dog does'nt walk you!
I personally don't think the 450 class is boring, but I also don't think the riders really wring out the bikes like they did on 250 two strokes. They ride 450s more like they used to ride 500s - smoother, saving some energy, less pin it and clutch it.
It's also funny that RC is touted as the ultimate test rider - in years past, his setup was so weird that a magazine would test his bike and find they couldn't ride it at all. It's worth noting that RC won '02 - '06 titles with Gosseler, then Reed won '09 with Gosseler and now Dungey is in good shape for the title with Gosseler. And of course most of those titles also involved DeCoster. Apparently, having DeCoster and Gosseler in your pit is a big help.
Sure Goose and Decoster are great to have, but, anyone think that RC wouldn't have won those titles pretty much anywhere?
And go back and watch the Emig years...he ran away frequently when winning titles. RC? Always until KW and Ferry got 4 strokes.
Look at James issues with the YZ....everyone says setup. He managed to go 24-0 on a KX. Was his setup that much better?
Being out front, these guys make ridiculous time. Not sure why. I've got 10 plus years of video that say it's true.
Now if the live track announcers will just fucking die.
That is what is causing my lack of 450 excitement.
500 2 stroke = 450 4 stroke
The 450 class is just the revival of the dismantled 500 outdoor nationals that stopped in 93. The racing plays out the same as it did then.
We have lost the 125 class racing with the 4 strokes. Whats even worse is we ask kids who ride 80s to jump on a 250 4 stroke that is equivalent to a 250 2 stroke. Things have gone the wrong way.
"leave it along he loves it"
when you never turn a clicker ,never change ride height,never change oil level,never change valving you stop learning and progressing.
that is where it is at,bikes come good but far from good for ever track.
there will not be a rider make it to pro around here because they are to dumb and lazy to give it that last bit it takes.
BMan-
You better check your facts on the relativeness of engine size... just because lap times are similar have nothing to with it... My sons 85 mod. class ran on the same second lap times as the expert 125/ 250 classes, numerous times... Sometimes the little guys were faster... Power to weight has a lot to do with it... So does set up...
BMan-
Pit Row
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BMan-
I don't think the class is boring, but I also thought this was a great post.
The days of a rider like Metty hanging out for 6 or 7 yrs in the lites class are gone.
My point was we lost the 125 class in the switch from 2 to 4 stroke and over the years the 4 strokes have improved in power. Thus these days the 250 4stroke is more like a 250 2stroke and a 450 class is more like the open class of old. No prob its the age old arguement just stated differently.....lol
Has anyone ever thought that it might be confidence more than anything? The guys who were racing Carmichael were so used to him winning, they truly believed that it was nearly impossible to beat him, unless he crashed (still won after crashing half the time) or had a bike malfunction, etc. In my opinion, the lack of excitement is far more mental than anything. Look at the one guy who could race Ricky consistently: Stewart, and we all know how confident Bubba is in his abilities. He knows that he is "the fastest man on the planet", and this confidence allowed him to stay with Ricky. I might be over-simplifying this but hopefully it makes a little bit of sense.
We all hear about guys being extremely fast during the week at the test track, maybe faster than anybody, but when race weekend comes and they are sitting on the starting line, they talk themselves out of believing in their skill deep down. They say to themselves (sometimes subconsciously), "Well, I know I can't beat him". Most of them will never admit it, but they think that way a lot. They could also not believe that their equipment is as good as their competition. There are so many mental factors that can ruin a racer.
Post a reply to: My Theory on the Lack of 450 Class Excitement.