"The Dubach Method" Keefer's Yamaha front brake upgrade

Have any of you YZ owners put on the KTM Brembo master cylinder? 

https://www.keeferinctesting.com/2022-2023-yamaha-yz250f-top-5-mods/

My 22' 250 has a shit front brake. Are the new 450s the same?

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SoCalMX70
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11/19/2024 10:31pm Edited Date/Time 11/19/2024 10:37pm

Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse than the stock Yamaha master.

Honda master cylinder and appropriate brake line and you're dialed. That's all you need. Can keep the stock YZ caliper and rotor.

A gentle one finger pull after that:

1000004907.jpg?VersionId=tK5ljRz8SUgkxBeIu3WRQnDrRiIdCd
8
11/19/2024 10:55pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse...

Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse than the stock Yamaha master.

Honda master cylinder and appropriate brake line and you're dialed. That's all you need. Can keep the stock YZ caliper and rotor.

A gentle one finger pull after that:

1000004907.jpg?VersionId=tK5ljRz8SUgkxBeIu3WRQnDrRiIdCd

Dope. Thank you 🙏🏽 

Ps. Looking good 👍🏽 

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1
11/19/2024 11:01pm

There's a cheaper way swap the master cylinder internals from Yamaha to honda. 

They use different pistons inside that effects the way the feel is. 

8

The Shop

Tumic
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Sundsvall SE
11/19/2024 11:47pm

I have never prefered the Brembo feel compared to a good Nissin.

Yes, the Brembo brakes bite good on the KTM but feels spungy compared to a Honda.

I would go with a Honda Nissin master cylinder and a oversize rotor as many YZF owners have done. 

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3
11/20/2024 12:09am

There's a cheaper way swap the master cylinder internals from Yamaha to honda. 

They use different pistons inside that effects the way the feel is. 

So you are saying to just swap pistons or is there more to it? 

Never got into the internals of a master cylinder. 

1
cwtoyota
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Tacoma, WA US
11/20/2024 12:25am
Tumic wrote:
I have never prefered the Brembo feel compared to a good Nissin.Yes, the Brembo brakes bite good on the KTM but feels spungy compared to a...

I have never prefered the Brembo feel compared to a good Nissin.

Yes, the Brembo brakes bite good on the KTM but feels spungy compared to a Honda.

I would go with a Honda Nissin master cylinder and a oversize rotor as many YZF owners have done. 

I'm in this camp too.
I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.   (MC350F, YZ250, KX500)
The Honda lever is stronger, lasts longer before it starts rattling and feels better than the YZ stuff.

All the CRF450R stuff just bolts on if you retain the Yamaha caliper carrier.  
The CRF master cylinder will have the banjo bolt on the back, rather than facing forward.

@SmokinJoe439 , that piston trick doesn't work on Yamahas 2007 and newer.
Honda uses a 11mm master cylinder bore since at least as far back as 2008 up to current models.
Yamaha uses a 3/8" master cylinder from 2007 to current models.


@Soul Indigo , if you ride ten new YZ's I think you'll find a few of them have shitty, spongey front brakes, a few feel average and a few feel pretty strong.  That has been my observation and I've upgraded all but one of the YZs I've owned with CRF brake systems.
 

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PTshox
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Highland Village, TX US
11/20/2024 12:29am

I found a used KTM master on ebay for 95 bucks with a lever. Just swapped that out (2020 YZ250FX) and it made a huge difference. Used stock yamaha everything else. 

I did it because I was at a buds track and rode a beta, CRF250R and a newer 350SXF. All had good front brake action. The stock Yamaha was a sponge. After that day I said "this has got to be fixed"

Interesting idea to simply swap out the Yamaha internals for honda ones. Should be simple to do..... 

1
Vet57
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BRO Town, MA US
11/20/2024 12:52am Edited Date/Time 11/20/2024 12:53am

Yup, as mentioned...best setup on the YZ is a Honda MC. I also add a Stainless line, Galfer OS rotor. But really just adding the MC makes a night/day diff.

2
Paul333
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Virginia Beach, VA US
11/20/2024 4:00am

Trust me I love Keefer but it’s it’s not “Keefer’s Yamaha Front Brake Upgrade”

It’s Dubach’s and Dubach’s alone. It’s been written about for years, and mentioned every time someone tests one of his bikes. 

3
7
EAmato88
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Egg Harbor City, NJ US
11/20/2024 4:04am
cwtoyota wrote:
I'm in this camp too.I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.  ...

I'm in this camp too.
I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.   (MC350F, YZ250, KX500)
The Honda lever is stronger, lasts longer before it starts rattling and feels better than the YZ stuff.

All the CRF450R stuff just bolts on if you retain the Yamaha caliper carrier.  
The CRF master cylinder will have the banjo bolt on the back, rather than facing forward.

@SmokinJoe439 , that piston trick doesn't work on Yamahas 2007 and newer.
Honda uses a 11mm master cylinder bore since at least as far back as 2008 up to current models.
Yamaha uses a 3/8" master cylinder from 2007 to current models.


@Soul Indigo , if you ride ten new YZ's I think you'll find a few of them have shitty, spongey front brakes, a few feel average and a few feel pretty strong.  That has been my observation and I've upgraded all but one of the YZs I've owned with CRF brake systems.
 

THIS 1000%. We have 4 newer yamahas and all 4 of them feel different. The biggest difference is the 23 yz125 compared to the 24 yz125. The 23 feels like complete shit, and the 24 is the best feeling yamaha front brake ive ever felt. Then we have the 24 KX450, that is what a front brake should feel like in my opinion. Nice, firm lever feel with minimal movement requried for actuation but the bite isnt severe. Still requires a good bit of pressure and modulation, not an on/off feel as some bikes seem to have.

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mx317
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TN US
11/20/2024 4:21am
EAmato88 wrote:
THIS 1000%. We have 4 newer yamahas and all 4 of them feel different. The biggest difference is the 23 yz125 compared to the 24 yz125...

THIS 1000%. We have 4 newer yamahas and all 4 of them feel different. The biggest difference is the 23 yz125 compared to the 24 yz125. The 23 feels like complete shit, and the 24 is the best feeling yamaha front brake ive ever felt. Then we have the 24 KX450, that is what a front brake should feel like in my opinion. Nice, firm lever feel with minimal movement requried for actuation but the bite isnt severe. Still requires a good bit of pressure and modulation, not an on/off feel as some bikes seem to have.

I'm with you on the 24 brake. I don't know if some are just better than others, but mine is firm as it needs to be. I have noticed it is a bit on/off which can catch you off guard on dry slick tracks. Other than the somewhat lightswitch feel, it is a strong brake.

GrapeApe
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11/20/2024 6:39am

"Will fit 2007+ YZ250F; 2008+ YZ125/250/450F; 2016+ WR/FX (2015+ WR250F/250FX) but the 3/8" stock master cylinder must be upgraded to 11mm (ie:2015 WR450f) or you can use a late model CRF450 front master cylinder (2019+) for best results."

Save your $500, just upgrade the master cylinder and brake line.

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11/20/2024 6:55am
IMG 8803 1.jpeg?VersionId=RUxE7cfpsmUlHK19ZTGy0yY

I did the 2010 Honda CRF450R front master setup on my YZ250 and love it! Galfer line with a 270 Galfer rotor also. Braking feels so much firmer and just stops harder the more you pull the lever, compared to the stock YZ setup that would feel ok at first and then never really progress any further. I haven’t tried the brembo setup but I feel this is plenty good & a much better improvement over the stock 

2
MxAddic
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11/20/2024 6:56am Edited Date/Time 11/20/2024 6:59am
MxAddic wrote:
GrapeApe wrote:
"Will fit 2007+ YZ250F; 2008+ YZ125/250/450F; 2016+ WR/FX (2015+ WR250F/250FX) but the 3/8" stock master cylinder must be upgraded to 11mm (ie:2015 WR450f) or you...

"Will fit 2007+ YZ250F; 2008+ YZ125/250/450F; 2016+ WR/FX (2015+ WR250F/250FX) but the 3/8" stock master cylinder must be upgraded to 11mm (ie:2015 WR450f) or you can use a late model CRF450 front master cylinder (2019+) for best results."

Save your $500, just upgrade the master cylinder and brake line.

Pretty sure he was talking about using it over an OEM Yamaha unit because of incompatibility with the stock MC. Not as opposed to his caliper as you fruitlessly indicate.  

There is an inconsistency with some of the nissan calipers that cause poor performance. How does a MC alleviate that? 

4
lumpy790
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York, SC US
11/20/2024 7:03am

I always loved the bite and feel of Honda Nissan brakes but I also put a stainless steel front brake line on every bike too. 

If you can put your hand around the line and feel it expand when squeezing the brake with your other hand feeling it expand that is lost braking power. SS line is always a lot better.

3
r.sal923
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CA
11/20/2024 7:06am
I did the 2010 Honda CRF450R front master setup on my YZ250 and love it! Galfer line with a 270 Galfer rotor also. Braking feels so...
IMG 8803 1.jpeg?VersionId=RUxE7cfpsmUlHK19ZTGy0yY

I did the 2010 Honda CRF450R front master setup on my YZ250 and love it! Galfer line with a 270 Galfer rotor also. Braking feels so much firmer and just stops harder the more you pull the lever, compared to the stock YZ setup that would feel ok at first and then never really progress any further. I haven’t tried the brembo setup but I feel this is plenty good & a much better improvement over the stock 

I have same thing, works great

Coach529
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Coeur d'Alene, ID US
11/20/2024 7:28am
Tumic wrote:
I have never prefered the Brembo feel compared to a good Nissin.Yes, the Brembo brakes bite good on the KTM but feels spungy compared to a...

I have never prefered the Brembo feel compared to a good Nissin.

Yes, the Brembo brakes bite good on the KTM but feels spungy compared to a Honda.

I would go with a Honda Nissin master cylinder and a oversize rotor as many YZF owners have done. 

cwtoyota wrote:
I'm in this camp too.I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.  ...

I'm in this camp too.
I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.   (MC350F, YZ250, KX500)
The Honda lever is stronger, lasts longer before it starts rattling and feels better than the YZ stuff.

All the CRF450R stuff just bolts on if you retain the Yamaha caliper carrier.  
The CRF master cylinder will have the banjo bolt on the back, rather than facing forward.

@SmokinJoe439 , that piston trick doesn't work on Yamahas 2007 and newer.
Honda uses a 11mm master cylinder bore since at least as far back as 2008 up to current models.
Yamaha uses a 3/8" master cylinder from 2007 to current models.


@Soul Indigo , if you ride ten new YZ's I think you'll find a few of them have shitty, spongey front brakes, a few feel average and a few feel pretty strong.  That has been my observation and I've upgraded all but one of the YZs I've owned with CRF brake systems.
 

What year CRF450 front MC?

 

CarlinoJoeVideo
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Portland/Los Angeles, CA US
11/20/2024 7:29am

I’m running the Dubach brake setup. Old Brembo/old caliper. To me it’s the most progressive feel for the front brake. Allows me to drag the front brake without the on/off feel and upsetting the chassis.

cwtoyota
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Location
Tacoma, WA US
11/20/2024 8:33am
Tumic wrote:
I have never prefered the Brembo feel compared to a good Nissin.Yes, the Brembo brakes bite good on the KTM but feels spungy compared to a...

I have never prefered the Brembo feel compared to a good Nissin.

Yes, the Brembo brakes bite good on the KTM but feels spungy compared to a Honda.

I would go with a Honda Nissin master cylinder and a oversize rotor as many YZF owners have done. 

cwtoyota wrote:
I'm in this camp too.I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.  ...

I'm in this camp too.
I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.   (MC350F, YZ250, KX500)
The Honda lever is stronger, lasts longer before it starts rattling and feels better than the YZ stuff.

All the CRF450R stuff just bolts on if you retain the Yamaha caliper carrier.  
The CRF master cylinder will have the banjo bolt on the back, rather than facing forward.

@SmokinJoe439 , that piston trick doesn't work on Yamahas 2007 and newer.
Honda uses a 11mm master cylinder bore since at least as far back as 2008 up to current models.
Yamaha uses a 3/8" master cylinder from 2007 to current models.


@Soul Indigo , if you ride ten new YZ's I think you'll find a few of them have shitty, spongey front brakes, a few feel average and a few feel pretty strong.  That has been my observation and I've upgraded all but one of the YZs I've owned with CRF brake systems.
 

Coach529 wrote:

What year CRF450 front MC?

 

I run the complete systems m/c and caliper.


The last one I bought was a 2017.    I think 2008 or 2009 up through 2020 CRF450R is all the same.

2
vtnewb
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Northfield, VT US
11/20/2024 9:18am

Does anyone know if my nice pro taper profile pro brake lever will work with that honda master? 22 YZ250FX.

OwenJakes
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sebree, KY US
11/20/2024 9:58am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse...

Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse than the stock Yamaha master.

Honda master cylinder and appropriate brake line and you're dialed. That's all you need. Can keep the stock YZ caliper and rotor.

A gentle one finger pull after that:

1000004907.jpg?VersionId=tK5ljRz8SUgkxBeIu3WRQnDrRiIdCd

What brake like are you running? I went with a YZ fitted line and it’s twisted up and stupid looking. It’s on my list of things to change. I’m running the CRF caliper. About to install a 280 rotor kit tonight too in fact. 

OwenJakes
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sebree, KY US
11/20/2024 9:59am
vtnewb wrote:

Does anyone know if my nice pro taper profile pro brake lever will work with that honda master? 22 YZ250FX.

It will not. 😔

2
SoCalMX70
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Thousand Oaks, CA US
11/20/2024 10:09am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse...

Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse than the stock Yamaha master.

Honda master cylinder and appropriate brake line and you're dialed. That's all you need. Can keep the stock YZ caliper and rotor.

A gentle one finger pull after that:

1000004907.jpg?VersionId=tK5ljRz8SUgkxBeIu3WRQnDrRiIdCd
OwenJakes wrote:
What brake like are you running? I went with a YZ fitted line and it’s twisted up and stupid looking. It’s on my list of things...

What brake like are you running? I went with a YZ fitted line and it’s twisted up and stupid looking. It’s on my list of things to change. I’m running the CRF caliper. About to install a 280 rotor kit tonight too in fact. 

Core Moto, Honda style

OwenJakes
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sebree, KY US
11/20/2024 10:11am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse...

Edit: Appears you're talking about the 250F, but same applies with what I wrote below. I'm sure the Brembo is good too. Doesn't get much worse than the stock Yamaha master.

Honda master cylinder and appropriate brake line and you're dialed. That's all you need. Can keep the stock YZ caliper and rotor.

A gentle one finger pull after that:

1000004907.jpg?VersionId=tK5ljRz8SUgkxBeIu3WRQnDrRiIdCd
OwenJakes wrote:
What brake like are you running? I went with a YZ fitted line and it’s twisted up and stupid looking. It’s on my list of things...

What brake like are you running? I went with a YZ fitted line and it’s twisted up and stupid looking. It’s on my list of things to change. I’m running the CRF caliper. About to install a 280 rotor kit tonight too in fact. 

SoCalMX70 wrote:

Core Moto, Honda style

Will any Honda fitment work? As in I select a part fitted to a CRF  

SoCalMX70
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Thousand Oaks, CA US
11/20/2024 10:37am
OwenJakes wrote:
What brake like are you running? I went with a YZ fitted line and it’s twisted up and stupid looking. It’s on my list of things...

What brake like are you running? I went with a YZ fitted line and it’s twisted up and stupid looking. It’s on my list of things to change. I’m running the CRF caliper. About to install a 280 rotor kit tonight too in fact. 

SoCalMX70 wrote:

Core Moto, Honda style

OwenJakes wrote:

Will any Honda fitment work? As in I select a part fitted to a CRF  

Yes. From what I recall I just did CRF450 19-20, which is the same as a few years before that as well. Might even be the same on the 21+ models, but they haven't updated the page.

11/20/2024 3:22pm
Paul333 wrote:
Trust me I love Keefer but it’s it’s not “Keefer’s Yamaha Front Brake Upgrade”It’s Dubach’s and Dubach’s alone. It’s been written about for years, and mentioned...

Trust me I love Keefer but it’s it’s not “Keefer’s Yamaha Front Brake Upgrade”

It’s Dubach’s and Dubach’s alone. It’s been written about for years, and mentioned every time someone tests one of his bikes. 

1
1
mx317
Posts
5309
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4/1/2008
Location
TN US
11/20/2024 4:41pm
Paul333 wrote:
Trust me I love Keefer but it’s it’s not “Keefer’s Yamaha Front Brake Upgrade”It’s Dubach’s and Dubach’s alone. It’s been written about for years, and mentioned...

Trust me I love Keefer but it’s it’s not “Keefer’s Yamaha Front Brake Upgrade”

It’s Dubach’s and Dubach’s alone. It’s been written about for years, and mentioned every time someone tests one of his bikes. 

Keefer has always said he got the idea from Dubach.

3
11/20/2024 6:17pm
cwtoyota wrote:
I'm in this camp too.I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.  ...

I'm in this camp too.
I run a CRF450R front brake, OE Honda/Nissin pads and non-floating 270mm Galfer rotor on three of four bikes I own.   (MC350F, YZ250, KX500)
The Honda lever is stronger, lasts longer before it starts rattling and feels better than the YZ stuff.

All the CRF450R stuff just bolts on if you retain the Yamaha caliper carrier.  
The CRF master cylinder will have the banjo bolt on the back, rather than facing forward.

@SmokinJoe439 , that piston trick doesn't work on Yamahas 2007 and newer.
Honda uses a 11mm master cylinder bore since at least as far back as 2008 up to current models.
Yamaha uses a 3/8" master cylinder from 2007 to current models.


@Soul Indigo , if you ride ten new YZ's I think you'll find a few of them have shitty, spongey front brakes, a few feel average and a few feel pretty strong.  That has been my observation and I've upgraded all but one of the YZs I've owned with CRF brake systems.
 

EAmato88 wrote:
THIS 1000%. We have 4 newer yamahas and all 4 of them feel different. The biggest difference is the 23 yz125 compared to the 24 yz125...

THIS 1000%. We have 4 newer yamahas and all 4 of them feel different. The biggest difference is the 23 yz125 compared to the 24 yz125. The 23 feels like complete shit, and the 24 is the best feeling yamaha front brake ive ever felt. Then we have the 24 KX450, that is what a front brake should feel like in my opinion. Nice, firm lever feel with minimal movement requried for actuation but the bite isnt severe. Still requires a good bit of pressure and modulation, not an on/off feel as some bikes seem to have.

We had the 23 YZ125 and front brake was horrendous. We made no changes to it except we purchased a front brake holder from Tech_167 3D Printing. He has sold a few of these holders to some of the factory mechanics in the pits including Duffe.

This bit of tooling works wondersTech167.jpg?VersionId=VaiSqXszP9mbcb7sUNNSzuSi4y8

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