Lucas Coenen with a very honest interview regarding his desire for USA

Herr Lich
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10/24/2024 3:36pm
LungButter wrote:
Sounds like you better go back and edit your list to not have anyone on it who doesn't have more than 3 years in the class.Or...

Sounds like you better go back and edit your list to not have anyone on it who doesn't have more than 3 years in the class.

Or does that not fit your narrative so you don't want to do that?

 

philG wrote:
Why? Its a fact that the US throws money at Amateurs, and then has a Pro structure that doesnt allow them to develop.  If you arent going...

Why? 

Its a fact that the US throws money at Amateurs, and then has a Pro structure that doesnt allow them to develop.  

If you arent going to move the likes of Cooper, Hampshire, etc up to 450, where is new talent going to go? 

And why they are hiring Anstie, and Smith is beyond me, they had their chance, get on a 450. 

If you can tell me the last rider who was an top Amateur , before Deegan, that came in and did well, you are better than me.   Sexton is the best guy to come through i ages IMO, and he wasnt that good on the 250, and the move to 450 only happened cos Kenny left, if i rememeber rightly .  

Its not that these guys arent all good riders, they are , but unless you are showing podium speed and consistency, week in week out, which nobody seems to, there is never going to be a title.  Deegan is 0/2 in SX, i cant see him not winning in 2025, but i said that for 2024.  Yes he got hurt, but hi still managed to grenade enough to end up second. 

The whole problem in the states is the incentive structure. Why would any of the top 250 guys who know they'd barely crack the top 10 in the 450 class have any financial incentive to move up?  They can sit on around $250k on top equipment in the 250s or move up to a satellite 450 team can get $100k at best.  Add to that the fact that in the 250s they can be upfront regularly, in the media and publicly lauded.  In the 450 class they'd be in the invisible 'outside the top ten' bracket. 

The fact there is no age out rule also means the teams are incentivized to take on people like Anstie. From their perspective, instead of having to take risks with multiple unproven young guns they can instead rely on old workhorses getting the odd win and podium.  They still need to focus on finding new guys but not as many.  They can distribute the risk a bit more. 

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971_Fan
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10/24/2024 7:38pm
philG wrote:
Deegan       Genuine generational talent. Kitchen       Already on his second team, no consistency, Hymas        Honestly over rated, decent, but i...

Deegan       Genuine generational talent. 
Kitchen       Already on his second team, no consistency, 
Hymas        Honestly over rated, decent, but i dont ever see him taking over from either of the Lawrences
Vialle          Double world Champ, SX Champ
Shimoda     Won Nothing, 8 title chances 0/4 in Sx and 0/4 in MX
Brown        12 championship attempts, best of 3rd  1 win
Vohland     8 shots at a championship, 2 factory teams , now on a private Yamaha
Thrasher    8 shots, best of 5th in a series
Robertson  6 shots, never broke the top 10, MIA
Hammaker  5 shots , best finish of 3rd  best championship overall of 4th 
Beaumer     Too soon to say, deffo a talent, still got plenty of time. 
DiFrancecso  Next big thing that wasnt, got the flick from PC, best championship of 10th. 
Mosiman       14 chances of a title, best of 3rd, best result of 6th
Cochran       Too soon to say, but not set the world on fire.
McAdoo       16 goes at a championship no wins. 2 SX wins, no MX wins
Romano       Too soon to say, but i sense he is done
Reynolds      Lots of injuries, never brought Amateur potential to Pro ranks
Swoll           11 goes at it, on his second factory team, never won a moto.
Bennick       Is it too soon to say?  Not been great
Schwartz     Journeyman Pro who would probably have done better than all the people above him on the bikes they were on.
Mumford     Meh
Fineis        Too soon to say 
Park          As per Schwartz, journeyman Pro, who has a decent shot at being the next Weston Peick.

 

If that seems harsh, you listed 33 riders, only 2 have a championship, you missed Forkner who has  had 16 goes at it. 

Deegan has 3 championships, one is SMX which is a pony show for points IMO, and no SX champs , but he is still young. 

 

The rest of them... well when you look at the numbers, all from Racer X, who the hell is hiring half of those guys.  All the guys that have come up in the last 3 years have been a total bust, save for Deegan, and it isnt till you look at the likes of McAdoo , he has been close, but he has been there and age. 

And never lose sight of the fact these guys are racing half the field in SX. 

There should have been a guy good enough to pick up one of those series, its not like Jett could ride both coasts. 

Is there some good talent in there, without doubt, but as has been said, none of them have been remotely close to being consistent.

Who is going to put any of those guys on a 450, honestly. 

Some will obviously have a break through , or need to , but there are a lot of guys there who are on borrowed time.

 

A completely biased take you've got there. Perhaps you remember Chase Sexton, who did very little of note on the 250, but flourished on the 450. 

Another standout was Ryan Dungey, who while he won a 250sx and 250 mx title, was never a standout guy on the 250. When he went to a 450, everything changed. 

It's not out of the ordinary for a rider to step up to the plate as it were once they move up to the 450 so for you to dismiss them the way you have is outright insulting. 

What's strange, is in another reply where you seem to boast about MXGP being having more depth (another biased take), you make claims that are in no way remotely warranted at this point. For example that Kay and Lucas will win if they come to the States. 

The same was said about Vialle, and Deegan has spent the last two summers smoking him. You of course anticipated that reply so you made another unwarranted claim that Kay and Lucas are already better than Vialle (even though Vialle beat both in the qualifier at the MXoN, though he had bad luck in the races) .  

You also mentioned that US racers don't come to the MXGP to race, but why should they?  Historically no top US racer has gone to the MXGP to race while in their prime (other than perhaps Lackey).  They were either not making here (Parker, Moore), or couldn't get a decent ride (Donny, Healey), or were at the end of their career (Glover, RV) .

Your bias is obvious, and at times, insulting. And saying Chance is overrated? That kid has speed like no other.   Or when you say that you can't wait to see the Lawrence's and Prado go at it and "hopefully" Sexton gets in the mix. 

Did you watch the Nationals?  Since when did Hunter get elevated above Chase?  Chase handled Hunter pretty good at the Nats, and he beat Tomac when hecame back (understandablyTomac was rusty), who then went the MXoN and beat both Prado and Herlings!  

Take off the blinders. 

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ando
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10/24/2024 8:45pm
philG wrote:
If you think Freddy Noren is top 10 GP material, you are delusional. Full gates does not mean good racing, 20 no hopers on a gate is...

If you think Freddy Noren is top 10 GP material, you are delusional. 

Full gates does not mean good racing, 20 no hopers on a gate is pointless, and yes , the flyaway's are shit , they need to go. 

 

LungButter wrote:
Freddy had a couple Top 10 rides here, it's not like he's a staple.So what, you really think that Horgmo, Guillod, Bonacorsi, Bogers, Guadagnini are gonna...

Freddy had a couple Top 10 rides here, it's not like he's a staple.

So what, you really think that Horgmo, Guillod, Bonacorsi, Bogers, Guadagnini are gonna come to AMA and just be Top 10 guys every round?

Talk about delusional.  Those dudes couldn't even top 10 our fucking 250 class.  Hell your 2 time World Champ 250 racer just got absolutely embarassed this year by a kid who was on Super Minis 2 years ago.

Just be happy for what you have bro and second rate series that the top talent are trying to use to get to the Premier series.

If MXGP was as good as you believe it wouldn't have a long history of most of the top talent doing anything and everything possible to come to America. 

 

"anything and everything possible"?

Prado is the first established MXGP rider and champion to cross the pond in 25 years.  Yes there's been eight MX2 champs come over in 30 years, so about one every 3-4 years.  You'd think if they were doing everything possible there'd be more of them.

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ando
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10/24/2024 9:00pm
philG wrote:
Deegan       Genuine generational talent. Kitchen       Already on his second team, no consistency, Hymas        Honestly over rated, decent, but i...

Deegan       Genuine generational talent. 
Kitchen       Already on his second team, no consistency, 
Hymas        Honestly over rated, decent, but i dont ever see him taking over from either of the Lawrences
Vialle          Double world Champ, SX Champ
Shimoda     Won Nothing, 8 title chances 0/4 in Sx and 0/4 in MX
Brown        12 championship attempts, best of 3rd  1 win
Vohland     8 shots at a championship, 2 factory teams , now on a private Yamaha
Thrasher    8 shots, best of 5th in a series
Robertson  6 shots, never broke the top 10, MIA
Hammaker  5 shots , best finish of 3rd  best championship overall of 4th 
Beaumer     Too soon to say, deffo a talent, still got plenty of time. 
DiFrancecso  Next big thing that wasnt, got the flick from PC, best championship of 10th. 
Mosiman       14 chances of a title, best of 3rd, best result of 6th
Cochran       Too soon to say, but not set the world on fire.
McAdoo       16 goes at a championship no wins. 2 SX wins, no MX wins
Romano       Too soon to say, but i sense he is done
Reynolds      Lots of injuries, never brought Amateur potential to Pro ranks
Swoll           11 goes at it, on his second factory team, never won a moto.
Bennick       Is it too soon to say?  Not been great
Schwartz     Journeyman Pro who would probably have done better than all the people above him on the bikes they were on.
Mumford     Meh
Fineis        Too soon to say 
Park          As per Schwartz, journeyman Pro, who has a decent shot at being the next Weston Peick.

 

If that seems harsh, you listed 33 riders, only 2 have a championship, you missed Forkner who has  had 16 goes at it. 

Deegan has 3 championships, one is SMX which is a pony show for points IMO, and no SX champs , but he is still young. 

 

The rest of them... well when you look at the numbers, all from Racer X, who the hell is hiring half of those guys.  All the guys that have come up in the last 3 years have been a total bust, save for Deegan, and it isnt till you look at the likes of McAdoo , he has been close, but he has been there and age. 

And never lose sight of the fact these guys are racing half the field in SX. 

There should have been a guy good enough to pick up one of those series, its not like Jett could ride both coasts. 

Is there some good talent in there, without doubt, but as has been said, none of them have been remotely close to being consistent.

Who is going to put any of those guys on a 450, honestly. 

Some will obviously have a break through , or need to , but there are a lot of guys there who are on borrowed time.

 

971_Fan wrote:
A completely biased take you've got there. Perhaps you remember Chase Sexton, who did very little of note on the 250, but flourished on the 450. Another...

A completely biased take you've got there. Perhaps you remember Chase Sexton, who did very little of note on the 250, but flourished on the 450. 

Another standout was Ryan Dungey, who while he won a 250sx and 250 mx title, was never a standout guy on the 250. When he went to a 450, everything changed. 

It's not out of the ordinary for a rider to step up to the plate as it were once they move up to the 450 so for you to dismiss them the way you have is outright insulting. 

What's strange, is in another reply where you seem to boast about MXGP being having more depth (another biased take), you make claims that are in no way remotely warranted at this point. For example that Kay and Lucas will win if they come to the States. 

The same was said about Vialle, and Deegan has spent the last two summers smoking him. You of course anticipated that reply so you made another unwarranted claim that Kay and Lucas are already better than Vialle (even though Vialle beat both in the qualifier at the MXoN, though he had bad luck in the races) .  

You also mentioned that US racers don't come to the MXGP to race, but why should they?  Historically no top US racer has gone to the MXGP to race while in their prime (other than perhaps Lackey).  They were either not making here (Parker, Moore), or couldn't get a decent ride (Donny, Healey), or were at the end of their career (Glover, RV) .

Your bias is obvious, and at times, insulting. And saying Chance is overrated? That kid has speed like no other.   Or when you say that you can't wait to see the Lawrence's and Prado go at it and "hopefully" Sexton gets in the mix. 

Did you watch the Nationals?  Since when did Hunter get elevated above Chase?  Chase handled Hunter pretty good at the Nats, and he beat Tomac when hecame back (understandablyTomac was rusty), who then went the MXoN and beat both Prado and Herlings!  

Take off the blinders. 

He's talking about the current crop of 250 riders, and he's mostly right.  Take away Deegan and there isn't much to talk to about.  The last American rider win a 250SX title who was younger than 24 was Sexton - that was six seasons ago.  

4

The Shop

971_Fan
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10/24/2024 10:11pm Edited Date/Time 10/24/2024 10:13pm
ando wrote:
He's talking about the current crop of 250 riders, and he's mostly right.  Take away Deegan and there isn't much to talk to about.  The last...

He's talking about the current crop of 250 riders, and he's mostly right.  Take away Deegan and there isn't much to talk to about.  The last American rider win a 250SX title who was younger than 24 was Sexton - that was six seasons ago.  

He's not even close to being right. 

Deegan is 18, Hymus is 19, Beaumer, DiFrancesco, as well as several others are young and still developing. Funny would write them off as nothing "much to talk about" when they are still developing, which leads to my next question:

How old was Hunta when he won his first 250 sx title?

While we are at it, who besides Kay and Lucas are standouts in the MX2 class?  

By the way, Sexton won the 2020 East sx title. How you figure that was 6 seasons ago is some strange maths. 

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ando
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10/24/2024 10:18pm
ando wrote:
He's talking about the current crop of 250 riders, and he's mostly right.  Take away Deegan and there isn't much to talk to about.  The last...

He's talking about the current crop of 250 riders, and he's mostly right.  Take away Deegan and there isn't much to talk to about.  The last American rider win a 250SX title who was younger than 24 was Sexton - that was six seasons ago.  

971_Fan wrote:
He's not even close to being right. Deegan is 18, Hymus is 19, Beaumer, DiFrancesco, as well as several others are young and still developing. Funny would...

He's not even close to being right. 

Deegan is 18, Hymus is 19, Beaumer, DiFrancesco, as well as several others are young and still developing. Funny would write them off as nothing "much to talk about" when they are still developing, which leads to my next question:

How old was Hunta when he won his first 250 sx title?

While we are at it, who besides Kay and Lucas are standouts in the MX2 class?  

By the way, Sexton won the 2020 East sx title. How you figure that was 6 seasons ago is some strange maths. 

I thought we were talking about the depth of talent in the US vs MXGP?  Are you saying Hymas, Beaumer and DiFrancesco are title threats?  Have any of them finished a full season yet?  Do you think any of them would have won MX2 class at the MXoN?

You are right, Sexton won in 2020, I was thinking of 2019.

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971_Fan
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10/24/2024 10:50pm
ando wrote:
I thought we were talking about the depth of talent in the US vs MXGP?  Are you saying Hymas, Beaumer and DiFrancesco are title threats?  Have...

I thought we were talking about the depth of talent in the US vs MXGP?  Are you saying Hymas, Beaumer and DiFrancesco are title threats?  Have any of them finished a full season yet?  Do you think any of them would have won MX2 class at the MXoN?

You are right, Sexton won in 2020, I was thinking of 2019.

Yes, let's talk MXGP vs US depth. Who won the MX2 class at the MXoN?  Kay. Who else was a threat to win it?  Lucas? 

You've essentially compared all of Europe to the US who can send only 1 rider. 

Further, yes, a healthy Deegan or Hymus could have won the MX2 class at the MXoN. Kitchen, if he was firing on all cylinders could as well. As mentioned earlier, the other riders are developing much like Hunta did in the years leading up to his titles. 

Remind me of how old Hunter was when he won his first sx title?

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CPR
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10/24/2024 11:16pm Edited Date/Time 10/24/2024 11:22pm
ando wrote:
I thought we were talking about the depth of talent in the US vs MXGP?  Are you saying Hymas, Beaumer and DiFrancesco are title threats?  Have...

I thought we were talking about the depth of talent in the US vs MXGP?  Are you saying Hymas, Beaumer and DiFrancesco are title threats?  Have any of them finished a full season yet?  Do you think any of them would have won MX2 class at the MXoN?

You are right, Sexton won in 2020, I was thinking of 2019.

971_Fan wrote:
Yes, let's talk MXGP vs US depth. Who won the MX2 class at the MXoN?  Kay. Who else was a threat to win it?  Lucas? You've essentially...

Yes, let's talk MXGP vs US depth. Who won the MX2 class at the MXoN?  Kay. Who else was a threat to win it?  Lucas? 

You've essentially compared all of Europe to the US who can send only 1 rider. 

Further, yes, a healthy Deegan or Hymus could have won the MX2 class at the MXoN. Kitchen, if he was firing on all cylinders could as well. As mentioned earlier, the other riders are developing much like Hunta did in the years leading up to his titles. 

Remind me of how old Hunter was when he won his first sx title?

Remind me of how old Hunter was when he won his first sx title?”

Hunter had just turned 18 when he won the MX2 class at the 2017 MXdN, beating current AMA champ Zach Osbourne. A year later he finished 2nd behind Prado. 
From there changing continents and injuries took a toll, before winning SX at 23, after finishing 2nd the two previous years.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make referencing Hunter, but I don’t think it supports your argument very well.

 

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971_Fan
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10/25/2024 12:17am
CPR wrote:
“Remind me of how old Hunter was when he won his first sx title?”Hunter had just turned 18 when he won the MX2 class at the...

Remind me of how old Hunter was when he won his first sx title?”

Hunter had just turned 18 when he won the MX2 class at the 2017 MXdN, beating current AMA champ Zach Osbourne. A year later he finished 2nd behind Prado. 
From there changing continents and injuries took a toll, before winning SX at 23, after finishing 2nd the two previous years.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make referencing Hunter, but I don’t think it supports your argument very well.

 

Read the context of my replies. Ando makes the point that PhilG is correct, and then precedes to talk about US depth and the age of Americam riders who have won sx titles in the 250 class (all the while being wrong)  saying the last time an American who was under the age 24 won one was 6 seasons ago. 

Ok, well Hunter was knocking on age 24 before he won a 250 sx title. Don't tell me about injuries because guys like Forkner, Justin Cooper and others dealt with injuries as well which slowed their progression. Not only was Hunter almost 24, but how old was some dude from France when he won the 250 West sx title in 2020?

That age argument doesn't just apply to Americans, and it's says very little about depth of class since younger riders (much like Hunter) are developing as they progress from season to season. 

PhilG is just being a sod and insulting American riders. 

 

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philG
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10/25/2024 12:37am
philG wrote:
Deegan       Genuine generational talent. Kitchen       Already on his second team, no consistency, Hymas        Honestly over rated, decent, but i...

Deegan       Genuine generational talent. 
Kitchen       Already on his second team, no consistency, 
Hymas        Honestly over rated, decent, but i dont ever see him taking over from either of the Lawrences
Vialle          Double world Champ, SX Champ
Shimoda     Won Nothing, 8 title chances 0/4 in Sx and 0/4 in MX
Brown        12 championship attempts, best of 3rd  1 win
Vohland     8 shots at a championship, 2 factory teams , now on a private Yamaha
Thrasher    8 shots, best of 5th in a series
Robertson  6 shots, never broke the top 10, MIA
Hammaker  5 shots , best finish of 3rd  best championship overall of 4th 
Beaumer     Too soon to say, deffo a talent, still got plenty of time. 
DiFrancecso  Next big thing that wasnt, got the flick from PC, best championship of 10th. 
Mosiman       14 chances of a title, best of 3rd, best result of 6th
Cochran       Too soon to say, but not set the world on fire.
McAdoo       16 goes at a championship no wins. 2 SX wins, no MX wins
Romano       Too soon to say, but i sense he is done
Reynolds      Lots of injuries, never brought Amateur potential to Pro ranks
Swoll           11 goes at it, on his second factory team, never won a moto.
Bennick       Is it too soon to say?  Not been great
Schwartz     Journeyman Pro who would probably have done better than all the people above him on the bikes they were on.
Mumford     Meh
Fineis        Too soon to say 
Park          As per Schwartz, journeyman Pro, who has a decent shot at being the next Weston Peick.

 

If that seems harsh, you listed 33 riders, only 2 have a championship, you missed Forkner who has  had 16 goes at it. 

Deegan has 3 championships, one is SMX which is a pony show for points IMO, and no SX champs , but he is still young. 

 

The rest of them... well when you look at the numbers, all from Racer X, who the hell is hiring half of those guys.  All the guys that have come up in the last 3 years have been a total bust, save for Deegan, and it isnt till you look at the likes of McAdoo , he has been close, but he has been there and age. 

And never lose sight of the fact these guys are racing half the field in SX. 

There should have been a guy good enough to pick up one of those series, its not like Jett could ride both coasts. 

Is there some good talent in there, without doubt, but as has been said, none of them have been remotely close to being consistent.

Who is going to put any of those guys on a 450, honestly. 

Some will obviously have a break through , or need to , but there are a lot of guys there who are on borrowed time.

 

971_Fan wrote:
A completely biased take you've got there. Perhaps you remember Chase Sexton, who did very little of note on the 250, but flourished on the 450. Another...

A completely biased take you've got there. Perhaps you remember Chase Sexton, who did very little of note on the 250, but flourished on the 450. 

Another standout was Ryan Dungey, who while he won a 250sx and 250 mx title, was never a standout guy on the 250. When he went to a 450, everything changed. 

It's not out of the ordinary for a rider to step up to the plate as it were once they move up to the 450 so for you to dismiss them the way you have is outright insulting. 

What's strange, is in another reply where you seem to boast about MXGP being having more depth (another biased take), you make claims that are in no way remotely warranted at this point. For example that Kay and Lucas will win if they come to the States. 

The same was said about Vialle, and Deegan has spent the last two summers smoking him. You of course anticipated that reply so you made another unwarranted claim that Kay and Lucas are already better than Vialle (even though Vialle beat both in the qualifier at the MXoN, though he had bad luck in the races) .  

You also mentioned that US racers don't come to the MXGP to race, but why should they?  Historically no top US racer has gone to the MXGP to race while in their prime (other than perhaps Lackey).  They were either not making here (Parker, Moore), or couldn't get a decent ride (Donny, Healey), or were at the end of their career (Glover, RV) .

Your bias is obvious, and at times, insulting. And saying Chance is overrated? That kid has speed like no other.   Or when you say that you can't wait to see the Lawrence's and Prado go at it and "hopefully" Sexton gets in the mix. 

Did you watch the Nationals?  Since when did Hunter get elevated above Chase?  Chase handled Hunter pretty good at the Nats, and he beat Tomac when hecame back (understandablyTomac was rusty), who then went the MXoN and beat both Prado and Herlings!  

Take off the blinders. 

Sexton won back to back titles on a 250, and pointed out, whilst not achieving much on a 250.

And Dungey 'Dungey'ed' a title against Lawrence, and Roger moved him up, maybe guessing he wouldnt do that twice.

And yes, they were great on 450's , which kind of makes my point, its a mish mash of mediocrity, and they stay down for years and dont win. 

I remember Jeremy Martin being the next big thing, he still doesnt have an SX title, and after winning back to back outdoors, hasnt won in over 10 years. 

I also remember him being decent on a 450, but opting not to back himself on one. 

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10/25/2024 2:41am
philG wrote:
Sexton won back to back titles on a 250, and pointed out, whilst not achieving much on a 250.And Dungey 'Dungey'ed' a title against Lawrence, and...

Sexton won back to back titles on a 250, and pointed out, whilst not achieving much on a 250.

And Dungey 'Dungey'ed' a title against Lawrence, and Roger moved him up, maybe guessing he wouldnt do that twice.

And yes, they were great on 450's , which kind of makes my point, its a mish mash of mediocrity, and they stay down for years and dont win. 

I remember Jeremy Martin being the next big thing, he still doesnt have an SX title, and after winning back to back outdoors, hasnt won in over 10 years. 

I also remember him being decent on a 450, but opting not to back himself on one. 

lol sexton won back to back 250 SX titles…but didn’t achieve much on a 250.🤡

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philG
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10/25/2024 3:00am
philG wrote:
Sexton won back to back titles on a 250, and pointed out, whilst not achieving much on a 250.And Dungey 'Dungey'ed' a title against Lawrence, and...

Sexton won back to back titles on a 250, and pointed out, whilst not achieving much on a 250.

And Dungey 'Dungey'ed' a title against Lawrence, and Roger moved him up, maybe guessing he wouldnt do that twice.

And yes, they were great on 450's , which kind of makes my point, its a mish mash of mediocrity, and they stay down for years and dont win. 

I remember Jeremy Martin being the next big thing, he still doesnt have an SX title, and after winning back to back outdoors, hasnt won in over 10 years. 

I also remember him being decent on a 450, but opting not to back himself on one. 

lol sexton won back to back 250 SX titles…but didn’t achieve much on a 250.🤡

I was quoting the original poster, who said just that.   

so clown him, not me. 

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2
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
10/25/2024 8:01am
ando wrote:
"anything and everything possible"?Prado is the first established MXGP rider and champion to cross the pond in 25 years.  Yes there's been eight MX2 champs come...

"anything and everything possible"?

Prado is the first established MXGP rider and champion to cross the pond in 25 years.  Yes there's been eight MX2 champs come over in 30 years, so about one every 3-4 years.  You'd think if they were doing everything possible there'd be more of them.

I think we can all agree that Gajser would be here too if he hadn't found out just how hard it is to race in the US at Monster Cup.

Ya'll wanna act like MXGP has such superior riders BUT....our guys race 2 disciplines during the year while the MXGP just concentrate on one....then when they come together to race moto our top guys are just as good, imagine how much better they'd be if they got to be one trick ponies like the MXGP guys.

8
10/25/2024 8:26am
ando wrote:
"anything and everything possible"?Prado is the first established MXGP rider and champion to cross the pond in 25 years.  Yes there's been eight MX2 champs come...

"anything and everything possible"?

Prado is the first established MXGP rider and champion to cross the pond in 25 years.  Yes there's been eight MX2 champs come over in 30 years, so about one every 3-4 years.  You'd think if they were doing everything possible there'd be more of them.

LungButter wrote:
I think we can all agree that Gajser would be here too if he hadn't found out just how hard it is to race in the...

I think we can all agree that Gajser would be here too if he hadn't found out just how hard it is to race in the US at Monster Cup.

Ya'll wanna act like MXGP has such superior riders BUT....our guys race 2 disciplines during the year while the MXGP just concentrate on one....then when they come together to race moto our top guys are just as good, imagine how much better they'd be if they got to be one trick ponies like the MXGP guys.

Monster Cup had 0% to do with Gajser not ending up in the US.
Put a roof over Lommel and call it Sandcross and now the GP guys are racing a different discipline half of the year as well...

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LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
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Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
10/25/2024 8:43am
crusty_xx wrote:
Monster Cup had 0% to do with Gajser not ending up in the US.Put a roof over Lommel and call it Sandcross and now the GP...

Monster Cup had 0% to do with Gajser not ending up in the US.
Put a roof over Lommel and call it Sandcross and now the GP guys are racing a different discipline half of the year as well...

Woah..... ya'll are getting desperate now.

5
10/25/2024 9:36am
crusty_xx wrote:
Monster Cup had 0% to do with Gajser not ending up in the US.Put a roof over Lommel and call it Sandcross and now the GP...

Monster Cup had 0% to do with Gajser not ending up in the US.
Put a roof over Lommel and call it Sandcross and now the GP guys are racing a different discipline half of the year as well...

LungButter wrote:

Woah..... ya'll are getting desperate now.

I dont have a dog in this fight but the SX excuse is just dumb. Prado spent the winter riding and racing SX and if anything it helped him in his title defense. US based riders are far superior when it comes to early race intensity and passing. Guess why.

2
3
teamddr
Posts
575
Joined
1/29/2019
Location
IE
10/25/2024 11:06am

MXGP and Euros “ working together to make American riding standards great again”

Your welcome guys 👍👍👍👍

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2
wreckitrandy
Posts
4207
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Granite Falls, NC, USA
10/25/2024 10:47pm
teamddr wrote:

MXGP and Euros “ working together to make American riding standards great again”

Your welcome guys 👍👍👍👍

Everything that goes around, comes around. We first picked it up from Hallman, Robert, and DeCoster. A lifetime ago. Now, every time you go to a GP and see someone throw a big whip, do you think they picked it up from Malherb, Carla, or Smets? 

1
Bearuno
Posts
5397
Joined
6/28/2014
Location
AU
10/26/2024 2:11am Edited Date/Time 10/26/2024 3:14am
LungButter wrote:
I think we can all agree that Gajser would be here too if he hadn't found out just how hard it is to race in the...

I think we can all agree that Gajser would be here too if he hadn't found out just how hard it is to race in the US at Monster Cup.

Ya'll wanna act like MXGP has such superior riders BUT....our guys race 2 disciplines during the year while the MXGP just concentrate on one....then when they come together to race moto our top guys are just as good, imagine how much better they'd be if they got to be one trick ponies like the MXGP guys.

As ever when people bring up TG at the Monster Energy Cup, I point out that, his first time, yes, indeed he crashed out.

But, earlier in the event, a bloke that had already done many, many SX races, over quite a few years : Eli Tomac, crashed out of the same event.

It, happens.

TGs first SX - though, perhaps he'd done that ill fated event in Germany , before doing Las Vegas?

Next time TG did the MEC, in 2019, he got 5th overall. In front of a lot of ultra experienced SX riders.

I get so sick of the 'selective memories' of people.

As for all of this MXGP / US BS ;  it's so bloody 'old'. 

Yup, some GP riders go to the USA.

 Some, don't. 

TG, has become a Multi Millionaire and a Multi time World Champion with his success in MXGP. Honda have paid him a heck of a lot of money, to stay in the GPs, and get them those World Championships.

The pull of SX, and racing in a largely homogenous country, with so much easier travel and culture (if you can adapt to it - both the culture And SX), is strong, especially for youngsters who have grown up watching SX, all their lives. And, especially when they know they will, potentially, have far more years to be able to stay on 250s, that they may perform better on. Not all riders transfer successfully to 450s. 

Neither Ferrandis nor Zac Osborne set the World afire in their GP seasons (check their records) , but, going to the USA, to continue on 250s, to get 250cc titles, past their 23rd birthdays and , then get titles in the 450s, proved to be a great thing for them. 

The "23 and You're Out" rule in 'Luongo's Sport' , the MXGPs - he basically owns it, the 'Sport', whoever he shacks up to partner with - is f**ked. Will he ever realize that that, and His pocketing of so much money, while keeping Any prize money from the Riders, is the Big driver of riders towards America, and, out of the GPs to other National series , plus things like the EWC? No, he won't, he doesn't give a Flying F**k - he's making Millions upon Millions, everyone can go suck eggs in his mind. 

 

4
1
Chris_Buehler
Posts
8400
Joined
7/21/2019
Location
PORTLAND, CT, USA
10/26/2024 4:05am
LungButter wrote:
I think we can all agree that Gajser would be here too if he hadn't found out just how hard it is to race in the...

I think we can all agree that Gajser would be here too if he hadn't found out just how hard it is to race in the US at Monster Cup.

Ya'll wanna act like MXGP has such superior riders BUT....our guys race 2 disciplines during the year while the MXGP just concentrate on one....then when they come together to race moto our top guys are just as good, imagine how much better they'd be if they got to be one trick ponies like the MXGP guys.

Bearuno wrote:
As ever when people bring up TG at the Monster Energy Cup, I point out that, his first time, yes, indeed he crashed out.But, earlier in...

As ever when people bring up TG at the Monster Energy Cup, I point out that, his first time, yes, indeed he crashed out.

But, earlier in the event, a bloke that had already done many, many SX races, over quite a few years : Eli Tomac, crashed out of the same event.

It, happens.

TGs first SX - though, perhaps he'd done that ill fated event in Germany , before doing Las Vegas?

Next time TG did the MEC, in 2019, he got 5th overall. In front of a lot of ultra experienced SX riders.

I get so sick of the 'selective memories' of people.

As for all of this MXGP / US BS ;  it's so bloody 'old'. 

Yup, some GP riders go to the USA.

 Some, don't. 

TG, has become a Multi Millionaire and a Multi time World Champion with his success in MXGP. Honda have paid him a heck of a lot of money, to stay in the GPs, and get them those World Championships.

The pull of SX, and racing in a largely homogenous country, with so much easier travel and culture (if you can adapt to it - both the culture And SX), is strong, especially for youngsters who have grown up watching SX, all their lives. And, especially when they know they will, potentially, have far more years to be able to stay on 250s, that they may perform better on. Not all riders transfer successfully to 450s. 

Neither Ferrandis nor Zac Osborne set the World afire in their GP seasons (check their records) , but, going to the USA, to continue on 250s, to get 250cc titles, past their 23rd birthdays and , then get titles in the 450s, proved to be a great thing for them. 

The "23 and You're Out" rule in 'Luongo's Sport' , the MXGPs - he basically owns it, the 'Sport', whoever he shacks up to partner with - is f**ked. Will he ever realize that that, and His pocketing of so much money, while keeping Any prize money from the Riders, is the Big driver of riders towards America, and, out of the GPs to other National series , plus things like the EWC? No, he won't, he doesn't give a Flying F**k - he's making Millions upon Millions, everyone can go suck eggs in his mind. 

 

Ah the good ole MXGP vs AMA dick measuring thread. I wonder how many I've seen since I started posting here in 2009. Hundreds? I used to engage in them but I just don't care anymore. Both sides have amazing riders. What do I get out of it if my side is better? Hopefully in my lifetime we see a case where they're all on the same gate together other than a one off team event like the MXdN. 

6
10/26/2024 6:29am
LungButter wrote:
Freddy had a couple Top 10 rides here, it's not like he's a staple.So what, you really think that Horgmo, Guillod, Bonacorsi, Bogers, Guadagnini are gonna...

Freddy had a couple Top 10 rides here, it's not like he's a staple.

So what, you really think that Horgmo, Guillod, Bonacorsi, Bogers, Guadagnini are gonna come to AMA and just be Top 10 guys every round?

Talk about delusional.  Those dudes couldn't even top 10 our fucking 250 class.  Hell your 2 time World Champ 250 racer just got absolutely embarassed this year by a kid who was on Super Minis 2 years ago.

Just be happy for what you have bro and second rate series that the top talent are trying to use to get to the Premier series.

If MXGP was as good as you believe it wouldn't have a long history of most of the top talent doing anything and everything possible to come to America. 

 

Are you really serious? Or just trolling?... 🙄

1
3
10/26/2024 6:34am
971_Fan wrote:
Yes, let's talk MXGP vs US depth. Who won the MX2 class at the MXoN?  Kay. Who else was a threat to win it?  Lucas? You've essentially...

Yes, let's talk MXGP vs US depth. Who won the MX2 class at the MXoN?  Kay. Who else was a threat to win it?  Lucas? 

You've essentially compared all of Europe to the US who can send only 1 rider. 

Further, yes, a healthy Deegan or Hymus could have won the MX2 class at the MXoN. Kitchen, if he was firing on all cylinders could as well. As mentioned earlier, the other riders are developing much like Hunta did in the years leading up to his titles. 

Remind me of how old Hunter was when he won his first sx title?

No way Hymas or Kitchen could have won the MX2 class in Matterley (MXoN).

Eventually Deegan.

1
5
Flatliner
Posts
4208
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
10/26/2024 6:42am
philG wrote:
Sexton won back to back titles on a 250, and pointed out, whilst not achieving much on a 250.And Dungey 'Dungey'ed' a title against Lawrence, and...

Sexton won back to back titles on a 250, and pointed out, whilst not achieving much on a 250.

And Dungey 'Dungey'ed' a title against Lawrence, and Roger moved him up, maybe guessing he wouldnt do that twice.

And yes, they were great on 450's , which kind of makes my point, its a mish mash of mediocrity, and they stay down for years and dont win. 

I remember Jeremy Martin being the next big thing, he still doesnt have an SX title, and after winning back to back outdoors, hasnt won in over 10 years. 

I also remember him being decent on a 450, but opting not to back himself on one. 

I often agree with your takes, but dungey's 09 season wasn't anything like that.

Park Boys
Posts
3833
Joined
3/23/2012
Location
USA
10/26/2024 8:41am

When Herlings was in his “prime” he had a win only bonus for GPs, I believe Lewis said it was 40k. You can get 50k for winning a 250 regional race and if you don’t still get 20K for second. The win bonuses are nearly non existent compared the AMA series. 

If you dominate the the US nationals you can make more then the GPs even though the series has 9 more races. Not to mention the 17 race SX series that preceded it that gives heat bonuses on top of main event bonuses. This is the problem.


 The manufactures pay the top riders, at least Herlings and Gajser for base contracts but they don’t pay near the amount in bonuses and InFront does absolutely nothing for them. 

Jett after is next HRC contract has the chance to make 13 million or potentially more if he wins everything. The GPs can’t even come close.

1
971_Fan
Posts
1176
Joined
4/11/2024
Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
10/26/2024 9:15am

No way Hymas or Kitchen could have won the MX2 class in Matterley (MXoN).

Eventually Deegan.

Yes they could. They all at some point or another, beat Vialle. They have the speed. 

3
1
Flatliner
Posts
4208
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
10/26/2024 9:46am
Park Boys wrote:
When Herlings was in his “prime” he had a win only bonus for GPs, I believe Lewis said it was 40k. You can get 50k for...

When Herlings was in his “prime” he had a win only bonus for GPs, I believe Lewis said it was 40k. You can get 50k for winning a 250 regional race and if you don’t still get 20K for second. The win bonuses are nearly non existent compared the AMA series. 

If you dominate the the US nationals you can make more then the GPs even though the series has 9 more races. Not to mention the 17 race SX series that preceded it that gives heat bonuses on top of main event bonuses. This is the problem.


 The manufactures pay the top riders, at least Herlings and Gajser for base contracts but they don’t pay near the amount in bonuses and InFront does absolutely nothing for them. 

Jett after is next HRC contract has the chance to make 13 million or potentially more if he wins everything. The GPs can’t even come close.

Where does this 13 million come from?  Honda is suddenly going to shell out 6-10 million per year in just salary?

10/26/2024 9:49am

This thread is off the rails. It was never intended to be an AMA vs mxgp. I guess as an American we can’t be happy about a top rider coming over without some trying to bring up irrelevant crap. 

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1
10/26/2024 10:48am
971_Fan wrote:

Yes they could. They all at some point or another, beat Vialle. They have the speed. 

Your point is biased, because Vialle has not the speed to match DeWolf or Coenen anymore on euro tracks.

I said it once again: on Matterley track, no way Hymas or Kitchen could have beat DeWolf or Coenen.

But Deegan would have been another story.

 

4
Park Boys
Posts
3833
Joined
3/23/2012
Location
USA
10/26/2024 10:55am
Park Boys wrote:
When Herlings was in his “prime” he had a win only bonus for GPs, I believe Lewis said it was 40k. You can get 50k for...

When Herlings was in his “prime” he had a win only bonus for GPs, I believe Lewis said it was 40k. You can get 50k for winning a 250 regional race and if you don’t still get 20K for second. The win bonuses are nearly non existent compared the AMA series. 

If you dominate the the US nationals you can make more then the GPs even though the series has 9 more races. Not to mention the 17 race SX series that preceded it that gives heat bonuses on top of main event bonuses. This is the problem.


 The manufactures pay the top riders, at least Herlings and Gajser for base contracts but they don’t pay near the amount in bonuses and InFront does absolutely nothing for them. 

Jett after is next HRC contract has the chance to make 13 million or potentially more if he wins everything. The GPs can’t even come close.

Flatliner wrote:

Where does this 13 million come from?  Honda is suddenly going to shell out 6-10 million per year in just salary?

His next contract will most likely be the biggest ever. Assuming he wins every thing and stays healthy he could have 5.5 million in win bonuses from Honda from winning SX, MX and SMX as well as race wins on top of potentially 4 million plus base from Honda. Again this is assuming he dominates like we all think he will assuming he stays healthy. Plus you have his personal sponsors and if he does a couple off season races in Paris and Australia it’s not out of the question. 

RC confirmed on Whisky Throttle that he made 9 million in 05 I believe it was and this was without SMX. Add inflation the RCs 9 million. Probably fairly close. 

125Rider
Posts
756
Joined
5/5/2021
Location
Woodbridge, NJ, USA
10/26/2024 11:55am
GrapeApe wrote:
"the 250 class in the US is full of people who weren't good enough to get a 450 ride, or did and couldnt keep it...

"the 250 class in the US is full of people who weren't good enough to get a 450 ride, or did and couldnt keep it"

Off the top of my head, that description does not apply to:

Deegan
Kitchen
Hymas
Vialle
Shimoda
Brown
Vohland
Thrasher
Robertson
Hammaker
Beaumer
DiFrancecso
Mosiman
Cochran
McAdoo
Romano
Reynolds
Swoll
Bennick
Schwartz
Mumford
Fineis
Park

I'll give you, arguably, Smith, Hampshire, Forkner, Masterpool, Marchbanks, Schock, Anstie
 

 

That’s a stacked 250 class.  Some people won’t admit it 

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