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It’s well known that early test mules for chassis and suspension design were using KTM engines while they were designing theirs so of course they had hands on experience with the KTM. They would be dumb not to utilize an existing platform for testing purposes, and to draw design ideas from.
If you don’t think any of these manufacturers’ engineers don’t have competitor’s bikes available to them to work off of and compare to, that’s just naive. Sure could triumph have made the cylinder and cylinder head look slightly different than it currently looks just to avoid the critique? I mean sure but I have a feeling the design engineers didn’t really care about the critique of Vital about how the engine looks like a KTM😂that tends to be more PR/Marketing’s wheelhouse
All new aluminum frame bike from the ground up and it's nothing but a KTM copy. Only on Vmx.
Would be cool if they knocked a 350, that would likely get them some sales.
I remember reading a UK magazine (Dirt Bike Rider I think) report when they did a visit to the KTM factory in the early '80's. They were developing an 80cc bike, and the bike to have at the time was the KX80. Sure enough, propped up against a wall in one of the factory buildings was a KX80 😄
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Did you just confirm that their 85SX is actually just a copy of the KX80?!
This is exactly what I'm saying. They obviously copied components and just added there own mold of the parts over the top to appear 2% different. Why even bother if it still looks like 98% of the part you copied?
Let's put it another way. If they had come out with a backwards engine, you guys would have zero doubts what bike they copied..
No, this was before the 85SX. KTM brought out an 80cc model that was only out for a couple of years or so (84 - 85/86?) then it was discontinued till they started again with the 85 a few years later. The magazine article was around 1983 when the KX80 was head and shoulders above the others in that class. The article just "innocently" mentioned that a KX was in the building at the same time KTM were developing an 80cc. Probably just a coincidence.. 😉
They didn't necessarily copy the KX but it certainly wouldn't hurt to get some pointers off the best bike at the time. I bet every manufacturer does the same. Wasn't the later RM250 engines very similar to the YZ?
When I worked at Caterpillar, I remember they bought a brand new Komatsu and had 3 engineers and mechanics disassemble it in the middle of the plant. They said this is our competition, lets see how they make them, how they compare to us, and if we can use their technology to improve on ours.... made perfect sense to everyone in the plant.
What would you like them to do? Transverse mount the engine+trans or maybe sit horizontal? That’s about the only things they could have done that would be DRASTICALLY different than every other single cylinder DOHC with finger follower head 250cc dirt bike🙄the formula for a successful 250 4 stroke has been basically the same for probably almost 10 years now short of the backwards Yamaha…
I actually just watched a video the other day talking about how basically all of them ended up copying Honda’s design, but they addressed the Yamaha/Suzuki and I believe they said that certain years of each others cylinders will bolt up and run no issues on the other brand’s crankcase
I doubt the idiot even rides a dirt bike!!! But he has the answers for everything!!! And all his answers suck!!!
I completely agree with you.
They saw it. They liked it. They said let’s ‘copy’ it.
Close enough that it works the same. Different enough that it won’t share parts.
What’s naive is not realising that my comment was tongue in cheek..
OFalk- why doesn’t the Triumph engine look like a KX250 engine? Or a CRF250 engine?
Why does it closely resemble a KTM?
Because they utilized the last gen KTM engine for baseline inspiration and for their chassis test mules as I already stated. Nobody is saying they didn’t pull inspiration and ideas from the KTM design…just that it’s not a copy paste. Would also be pretty foolish to test chassis designs with the KTM and then dramatically stray from that design and force their R&D to have to work all over again to get the chassis to work with the production engine.
I'm still waiting for more details about "Nearly everything is a carbon copy of a KTM.."
Let's leave the motor out of it and cover the rest of the bike please and thank you.
Motor is different. It was getting some pretty good starts in SX, MX and MXGP. Something the ktm struggles to do
KTM rear sprocket is a direct bolt-on, prior generation throttle tube, brake levers, brake pads (caliper pins, even)...
Having seen one in person, my first thought was that the TF 250-X looked like a 2006-2009 Yamaha 4T frame coupled with a 2016 - 2022 Austrian 250F engine package. Having ridden one, it's not that far off! Triumph studied the market, learned from the best designs, and put out a VERY SOLID package. Great suppliers like KYB, Brembo, Galfer, TwinAir, Athena/GET, ODI, ProTaper, and Pirelli are also some of the reasons how/why they were able to 'get it so right'.
Pit Row
The first Gas Gas enduro bikes were basically copies of the KX250 chassis. Apparently a KX subframe would bolt straight onto the Gas Gas.
Had my suspension revalved as I'm 155 #'s geared up and the stock valving was just to stiff.
That aside, the Triumph is a well thought out bike for sure! To remove the shock: 2 bolts and the can (2 part exhaust) is out of the way. One linkage bolt and the linkage swings away. 2 bolts and the shock is free. Pulls cleanly out after that. No sub frame removal! Reverse and complete. The 3 bolts at the shock area are all 17mm and accessible from the same side.
Ridden KTM's for years and removing the shock is a bit more complicated. My YZ 125/250 is way more complicated.
Way to go Triumph!!
I saw a Triumph in one of the high lights for Day 3 at the Six Days Enduro. Should be a good quality test for them. Hope they make it to the finish!
It is crazy how you all won’t admit that they copied the last gen ktm engine. Like either you are blind or you don’t want to see it looking at picture. You all saying that the build a dohc 250cc engine of course it looks like the other bikes. But don’t you see that all other brand bike engine does not look like each other except the triumph one that looks identical to ktm. And nobody is saying that this is bad they just saying the truth. I bet if someone would take a 09 yz250f and put the ktm engine in it with the same suspension as the triumph the bike would feal almost the same.
Take both engines, remove all mfg names from them. Put them side by side & grab your average moto guy to tell you if the engines are from the same company. I guarantee they'd say their both from the same company.
"Nearly everything is a carbon copy of a KTM.."
What else dawg?
Front fender design: 2012 KTM
Shrouds, side plates, rear fender design: 2017 KTM
Frame design: 2006 YZ-F
Exhaust design: 2020 KTM
Swingarm: KTM
Front plate: Honda
Front fender design: 2012 KTM - nope, owned a 2012 KTM, not the same.
Shrouds, side plates, rear fender design: 2017 KTM - Pretty similar for sure, also reminds me of a Honda though
Frame design: 2006 YZ-F - Ummmmm Yamaha and KTM are not the same company dawg
Exhaust design: 2020 KTM - Don't pretty much all exhausts except the Yamaha look the same?
Swingarm: KTM - Can't say for certain but I doubt a KTM swingarm bolts to that aluminum frame
Front plate: Honda - Again, Honda and KTM aren't the same company
You're stretching dawg. But I appreciate the banter.
this is you hahaha
/\ - Yeah man, this threads almost played out.
I mean none of us are curing cancer here....
That wasn't a dig at you but at him
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