This is it!!!! 150sx against 250Fs!!!!

burn1986
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 7:06pm


I have written to several magazines about doing a test of the 144/ 150 against the 250Fs in a real shootout. Well, guess who I received an email from - Jimmy Lewis, editor of Dirt Rider!!!!!!!! Here is what he wrote:



Arrange the bikes? I’ll do it, I’m not scared. You are right about the vocal two-stroke minority, I know this.

But we do lap times as well. We have radar guns. We’ll do it right, you know.



So are we talking stock bikes? Or modified ones? Or a price cap?



Jimmy Lewis

Editor

Dirt Rider Magazine

1733 Alton Parkway

Suite 100

Irvine, CA 92606



949 705 3114

jimmy.lewis@sorc.com




MXA never even bothered to respond! I will be following this for everyone to read. What do ya'll think about stock, modified, price gap, etc?
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TWicks
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5/24/2010 7:16pm
I say try a price cap (something reasonable for the average buyer) and fully modified (national caliber bikes)

Torco1
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5/24/2010 7:18pm
You had me at your profile pic.
TWicks
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5/24/2010 7:21pm
Use appropriate test riders too, guys that have time on 2 strokes recently. Somebody who has ridden 4 strokes the last 5 years probably wouldn't be the best to use
WideOpen
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5/24/2010 7:22pm
Stock VS stock. Thats the true test.

The Shop

5/24/2010 7:34pm
WideOpen wrote:
Stock VS stock. Thats the true test.
stock vs stock

$1500 worth of mods

and all out pro race bike
5/24/2010 7:39pm
If there could only be one test, I'd want to see stock vs. stock.
newmann
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5/24/2010 7:41pm
WideOpen wrote:
Stock VS stock. Thats the true test.
TriRacer27 wrote:
stock vs stock

$1500 worth of mods

and all out pro race bike
That would be a good approach. I really like the $1500.00 mod idea as that will buy a pipe and high comp piston for the 4 stroke and a whole shitload of stuff for the 2 stroke. Then I suggest they run the ever loving shit out of them until they scatter the engines and then list the costs to rebuild them.
ASH510
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5/24/2010 7:43pm
WideOpen wrote:
Stock VS stock. Thats the true test.
TriRacer27 wrote:
stock vs stock

$1500 worth of mods

and all out pro race bike
Triracer27
i like this
Faceaz
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5/24/2010 7:44pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:05pm
Stock vs. stock. You don't want variables of which bike got the best mods, to come into play.

On a side note, I'd edit your post to exclude his contact info. He might not want that broadcasted.
5/24/2010 8:01pm
$1500 mods is really the most appropriate test since most people end up putting that much into their bike anyway, but with this test it is more appropriate than before because of the significance of $1500 on a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke.

They should also both be Yamahas or KTMs to remove big differences in suspension or geometry.
mcphilly
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5/24/2010 8:15pm
have Sleeter do it ......That guy rips on 2 strokes and 4 strokes and with him being involved with KTM and has worked as a test rider for the factory team his input would be top notch...Thats your guy right there......Mike Sleeter # 111
Crush
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5/24/2010 8:17pm
Seeing the KTM 150 is meant to be way stronger than the YZ144, as it is purpose built from the beginning, I think you should do a KTM150 v KTM250 test, both stock, and modded as much as you could for a national rider...

You could get a RPM YZ and RM in their too, but I think having the KTM150 is the most relevant starting point...
Lightning78
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5/24/2010 8:32pm
mcphilly wrote:
have Sleeter do it ......That guy rips on 2 strokes and 4 strokes and with him being involved with KTM and has worked as a test...
have Sleeter do it ......That guy rips on 2 strokes and 4 strokes and with him being involved with KTM and has worked as a test rider for the factory team his input would be top notch...Thats your guy right there......Mike Sleeter # 111
Problem is that Sleeter works big time for KTM there would be a conflict of interest right there if you go with any brand other than KTM
GuyB
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5/24/2010 8:33pm
Yep, classy avatar. It adds instant credibility to your argument. Wink
sergio
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5/24/2010 8:39pm
Stock vs stock. The issue has always been the displacement disparity between the 2 and 4 strokes. A modded 125 doesn't really stand a chance against even a stock 250f. So run a stock SX150 (they are homologated and OEM production and would at least adhere to those AMA pro requirements) vs whatever Dirt Rider's 250f shootout champion is. Would be interesting to see just how competitive the 2 stroke would be in the 250f / Lites class. Too many variables in mod vs. mod, which seems to be why you don't really see different brand mod vs mod tests, although periodically MXA will test same brand/displacement mod vs. stock.
Lightning78
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5/24/2010 8:44pm
Can't wait to see this happen big props to Lewis and Dirtrider for answering the call

The AMA and MXSports should allow this to happen 150 two strokes in the lites class would be perfectly fair.
newmann
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5/24/2010 8:47pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
stock vs stock

$1500 worth of mods

and all out pro race bike
Might as well forget that all out pro race bike thing though. Sems the powers that be are even afraid to allow a measly little 144cc 2 stroke out on the track with a $200,000.00 Pro-Circuit Formula 1 racer. Have to keep it an amateur thing as the powers that be haven't told Davey to cut that shit out there yet. But when you bring it down to the amateur level, a 250cc two stroke is legal, so how does any of this shit really make sense? It's a clusterfuck of epic proportions and I think I see red helicopters on the horizon.....
2T42
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5/24/2010 9:05pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:05pm


..."It's a clusterfuck of epic proportions and I think I see red helicopters on the horizon....."

We go the extra mile for Newman!
Lightning78
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5/24/2010 9:06pm
That's $200,000 just for the motor Newmann....the rest of the bike is another story. LOL

I think it is a goddam joke the ama won't let a 144cc 2 stroke compete in the lites class.....oh wait thats because the only company making one is KTM .....true Yamaha makes one as well but it's a half assed effort at best.....on a 4 year old bike. The KTM is at least current in it's stage of developement.

With that said KTM is my hero of the MX bike Mfg's these days not only did they shock the MX world with a domiating all new 350 bike against the 450's but they offer such a wide variety of 4 stroke displacements for a rider to chjoose from, 250f, 350f, 450f, 525f.....and the 2 strokes 85, 150, 250, 300....not to mention their quality is on par if not better than the Japanese bikes these days....not to mention their dominance of the offroad market as well

If none of the Japanese ever grow the balls to make a new current 2 stroke or offer a 350 from now on my dollars will be going to KTM for all new bike purchases seems they actually care what their consumers want not the other way around.

IMO starting with KTM's 2011 lineup the "Big 4" are going to notice a drastic loss of their market share for the forseeable future to KTM....I see a lot of average Big 4 riders/consumers going orange in the future....just you watch it will happen. I admire KTM's business model.
5/24/2010 9:45pm
The reality is that the $200 000 F1 250Fs are farster around the track than a 250 2T and the 450 4T also, so a 150 2t wont have a shit show!

What came first the chicken or the egg?
why would the jap 4 make a 150 2T when there's no class to race it in? and viceversa.








loftyair
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5/24/2010 10:31pm
Cap it at 7k. Then you have all you could want in the 2-stroke, and, oh, the 4-stroke cant make the party, it's too snobby. 2-stroke wins with $ involved, every time.
7GP
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5/24/2010 10:46pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:05pm
loftyair wrote:
Cap it at 7k. Then you have all you could want in the 2-stroke, and, oh, the 4-stroke cant make the party, it's too snobby. 2-stroke...
Cap it at 7k. Then you have all you could want in the 2-stroke, and, oh, the 4-stroke cant make the party, it's too snobby. 2-stroke wins with $ involved, every time.
I thought part of the point of the two stroke was the lower initial investment?


Stock v Stock is the only way.....
mx757
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5/24/2010 11:27pm
It would make more sense to me to cap it at say $7000 total (MSRP + MSRP of mods) because since the pinger costs less to begin with it will then get a few more mods to level the field. Think about it. A buyer isnt going to consider a 150 verses a 250f isnt going to suddenly lose the $ he was going to spend on different stuff because he picked the 150 right? Let them equal out the costs and go from there.
5/25/2010 4:42am
Since 250 two strokes are legal in amateur racing Dirt Rider should include a SX250 in the 150/4-stroke shootout.
5/25/2010 4:55am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:05pm
Why are we talking about price caps etc on the 250F. We are talking about the pro ranks. Here's how the test should go. Use 1 factory 250F or Pro Circuit totally modded out 250F. Then take all the other 125's and mod them to the 144cc. Because each last year 125 can be made into a 144cc. Use the KTM 150sx and then you do the major mods on the 150's. Like oh, port them, pipe and intake. Suspension too. What else are you gonna do on a 144cc bike? Then compare them. Why? Because that is the existing pro ranks that the rules are made for. We are talking about the mid pack self paying their way riders. This way, we are on the exact same ground as it would be in the series. The top guys have the same $200k bikes and the guy that buys this bike has a modded 144cc bike that costs around $10k total.
Why are you guys comparing the same bikes, when they won't be the same in the actual races? Why are some of you guys that want 2 strokes to race, wanting a comparison, where the 2 stroke may win? A stock or near stock 250F is quite slow. A Pro Circuit modded, no so slow. If the 2 stroke wins, you lose, because they won't allow the bike in. If the comparison is like the current pro ranks, the 250f's aren't even close to what you guys are talking about.

I will add a couple extra notes. The statements made recently were a little incorrect. First, every manufacturer still makes a 250 2 stroke except Honda. It was stated that they don't, which is incorrect, just not shipped to the US. If they were being raced, they would be shipped, which wouldn't cost anything more, since there are already other bikes, snowmobiles, watercrafts etc being shipped. Second, 2 seconds faster a lap on a 250 2 stroke. Although as we also know, recently, a respectable rider wouldn't even have qualified in the 250F class on a Factory backed 250 2 stroke. So the comparison done with Jlaw, may have been as scewed as what you guys are asking for right now. Comparing a stockish bike to a stockish bike. If the test with Jlaw would have had a stock 250 2 stroke and a factory modded 250F, would things have been different?
hellion
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5/25/2010 6:06am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:05pm
There are three reasons I see the two stroke making a comeback. Most important, cost. Cost to buy, cost to modify, cost to maintain, plus the money you lose when you sell a worthless pile of crap at the end of the season (who really wants to buy a used up ticking time bomb anyway). Second, fun. Two strokes are more fun. You might be faster on a four stroke which is fun at first. As soon as that wears off a bit the F's become boring and the challenge of dancing with a two stroke begins to entice you. Speed isn't everything. We ride because it is hard and we like to be on the edge. On a four stroke it is a dull edge at best. Third is that four strokes are too fast. 450's are way overpowered to the point that a stock bike is all any mortal could ever really use. 250's are also too fast because that is the stepping stone now for kids coming off minis. They are too big, too heavy, and too fast for a twelve year old to ride safely.
That said, I'd love to see a comparison. Please don't limit the money spent. Use a one race wonder motor in a 250f. But be sure to add in the cost over a season of use. Even the most highly modded 150 motor will last a few races, and then all you need is rings and maybe a piston. So part of the comparison should be cost of a season for racing either bike.

Running a test this way will help illustrate how ludicrous our sport has become. Is it more fun now than it used to be? No. Is it many times more expensive? Yes. I think the horse left the barn already, but the 2 stroke movement is gaining momentum. Nothing short of a rule change will bring the horse back in the barn, but a test like this could add some momentum to the movement. The racers will need to speak with their wallets, or eventually they won't have anything in them to speak with.
huck
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5/25/2010 6:25am
scotttydog wrote:
The reality is that the $200 000 F1 250Fs are farster around the track than a 250 2T and the 450 4T also, so a 150...
The reality is that the $200 000 F1 250Fs are farster around the track than a 250 2T and the 450 4T also, so a 150 2t wont have a shit show!

What came first the chicken or the egg?
why would the jap 4 make a 150 2T when there's no class to race it in? and viceversa.








What is a 2T and 4T?

DPW
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5/25/2010 6:38am
stock 2011 KTM 150SX vs 2011 KTM 250SX-F
race
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5/25/2010 11:06am
hellion wrote:
There are three reasons I see the two stroke making a comeback. Most important, cost. Cost to buy, cost to modify, cost to maintain, plus the...
There are three reasons I see the two stroke making a comeback. Most important, cost. Cost to buy, cost to modify, cost to maintain, plus the money you lose when you sell a worthless pile of crap at the end of the season (who really wants to buy a used up ticking time bomb anyway). Second, fun. Two strokes are more fun. You might be faster on a four stroke which is fun at first. As soon as that wears off a bit the F's become boring and the challenge of dancing with a two stroke begins to entice you. Speed isn't everything. We ride because it is hard and we like to be on the edge. On a four stroke it is a dull edge at best. Third is that four strokes are too fast. 450's are way overpowered to the point that a stock bike is all any mortal could ever really use. 250's are also too fast because that is the stepping stone now for kids coming off minis. They are too big, too heavy, and too fast for a twelve year old to ride safely.
That said, I'd love to see a comparison. Please don't limit the money spent. Use a one race wonder motor in a 250f. But be sure to add in the cost over a season of use. Even the most highly modded 150 motor will last a few races, and then all you need is rings and maybe a piston. So part of the comparison should be cost of a season for racing either bike.

Running a test this way will help illustrate how ludicrous our sport has become. Is it more fun now than it used to be? No. Is it many times more expensive? Yes. I think the horse left the barn already, but the 2 stroke movement is gaining momentum. Nothing short of a rule change will bring the horse back in the barn, but a test like this could add some momentum to the movement. The racers will need to speak with their wallets, or eventually they won't have anything in them to speak with.
Well said.

You should take notes Gibby. The smokers are coming back!

RACEGUY
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5/25/2010 11:24am
Why did this have to get all pear-shaped?

KTM 150 versus any or all 250Fs. Basic - basic - basic.

Allow for a pipe and necessary jetting. Stock suspensions with basic tuning.

That's all I can afford on an entry-level budget.

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