Statement from Rich Taylor (LACR Lawsuit)

truck
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6/10/2024 3:50pm
aees wrote:
I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm. I have...

I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm.

I have been part of many such inspections, and built track to be compliant to them. 

Just go by that, and you can see who is in the wrong.

Can you provide these documents? I just went through the 2022 guide and I could see where the maximum obstacle height is 6m, but also that...

Can you provide these documents? I just went through the 2022 guide and I could see where the maximum obstacle height is 6m, but also that trackside banking to indicate track limits must be at minimum height of 50cm.  I saw no language specific to the backside of berms. 

aees wrote:
Most of the FIM countries has something to address this. If not specifically, there is no chance that corners gets approved if the safety inspectors doesn't...

Most of the FIM countries has something to address this. If not specifically, there is no chance that corners gets approved if the safety inspectors doesn't have a bad day (it happens...). 

The general rule has been, if there is a berm, you need to fence it ontop. Most tracks just take down the berms instead. To much work otherwise. 

That why you do pre-checks before doing the actual track inspection. 

 

Cool non answer. If there's so many it shouldn't be hard for you to find one to back up your position. 

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truck
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6/10/2024 3:52pm
truck wrote:

Would love to see these guidelines you're referencing. Or you just another buddy with an opinion trying to justify all this? 

My thoughts as well, just a wildly simple take on this.  According to this guy, every single track on the planet would be deemed too dangerous...

My thoughts as well, just a wildly simple take on this. 

According to this guy, every single track on the planet would be deemed too dangerous. If this guy sees a 1 on a risk matrix, apparently he's dropping the hammer and condemning the place. Him and his board of directors. 

aees wrote:
If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30...

If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30 degree incline. Simple. Of course some national variations exists. And some don't care (hence the situation..) 

It extends to everything from 70 degree jump faces, to 30 degree landings, 9m minimum distance between race lines, 2m minimum free Zones, minimum width of start corners, maximum average speed for racers in race conditions to be 50 or 60km/h, height for wave sections is fixed, even the width of fence poles can be maximum 70-80mm width, and using 3 or 4 mm wires.

You guys really have no clue why there is a case here? It's so ignorant coming from people claiming to be in the sport.

Be safe, fix the obvious issues, or risk getting sued. But don't come crying and act surprised when shit goes sideways. 

I read the entire complaint and they mention none of this....  so...... maybe you're the one that doesn't know that the claim is about?

2
aees
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6/10/2024 3:53pm
Can you provide these documents? I just went through the 2022 guide and I could see where the maximum obstacle height is 6m, but also that...

Can you provide these documents? I just went through the 2022 guide and I could see where the maximum obstacle height is 6m, but also that trackside banking to indicate track limits must be at minimum height of 50cm.  I saw no language specific to the backside of berms. 

aees wrote:
Most of the FIM countries has something to address this. If not specifically, there is no chance that corners gets approved if the safety inspectors doesn't...

Most of the FIM countries has something to address this. If not specifically, there is no chance that corners gets approved if the safety inspectors doesn't have a bad day (it happens...). 

The general rule has been, if there is a berm, you need to fence it ontop. Most tracks just take down the berms instead. To much work otherwise. 

That why you do pre-checks before doing the actual track inspection. 

 

truck wrote:

Cool non answer. If there's so many it shouldn't be hard for you to find one to back up your position. 

Just Google any FIM nation, translate it, and talk to a track inspector of your choice. Not that hard. I think even the material from the yearly FIM track security event is available in English where details as in my other post are discussed and progressed. 

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aees
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6/10/2024 3:55pm
My thoughts as well, just a wildly simple take on this.  According to this guy, every single track on the planet would be deemed too dangerous...

My thoughts as well, just a wildly simple take on this. 

According to this guy, every single track on the planet would be deemed too dangerous. If this guy sees a 1 on a risk matrix, apparently he's dropping the hammer and condemning the place. Him and his board of directors. 

aees wrote:
If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30...

If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30 degree incline. Simple. Of course some national variations exists. And some don't care (hence the situation..) 

It extends to everything from 70 degree jump faces, to 30 degree landings, 9m minimum distance between race lines, 2m minimum free Zones, minimum width of start corners, maximum average speed for racers in race conditions to be 50 or 60km/h, height for wave sections is fixed, even the width of fence poles can be maximum 70-80mm width, and using 3 or 4 mm wires.

You guys really have no clue why there is a case here? It's so ignorant coming from people claiming to be in the sport.

Be safe, fix the obvious issues, or risk getting sued. But don't come crying and act surprised when shit goes sideways. 

truck wrote:

I read the entire complaint and they mention none of this....  so...... maybe you're the one that doesn't know that the claim is about?

Ah so the claim is not about the track (corner) being unsafe and cause for the injuries.

You are right, I got that wrong. 😂

2

The Shop

GrapeApe
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6/10/2024 3:55pm
Dude you are just plain wrong. Also, not to be a d-bag, but the level of grammar and spelling I'm seeing is not indicative of someone...

Dude you are just plain wrong. Also, not to be a d-bag, but the level of grammar and spelling I'm seeing is not indicative of someone with the resumé you claim to have.

GrapeApe wrote:

He's talking about FIM guidelines, I'm guessing English isn't his first language.

aees wrote:

Exactly. For some people to go after others, and miss the obvious. Oh the irony 😅

Just to be clear, I think the FIM guidelines are asinine. But I'll defend your grammar and spelling if English isn't your first language.

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LungButter
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6/10/2024 3:56pm
aees wrote:
If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30...

If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30 degree incline. Simple. Of course some national variations exists. And some don't care (hence the situation..) 

It extends to everything from 70 degree jump faces, to 30 degree landings, 9m minimum distance between race lines, 2m minimum free Zones, minimum width of start corners, maximum average speed for racers in race conditions to be 50 or 60km/h, height for wave sections is fixed, even the width of fence poles can be maximum 70-80mm width, and using 3 or 4 mm wires.

You guys really have no clue why there is a case here? It's so ignorant coming from people claiming to be in the sport.

Be safe, fix the obvious issues, or risk getting sued. But don't come crying and act surprised when shit goes sideways. 

Going off of these guidelines, pretty much every single track in America is too dangerous and should be shut down.

 

7
truck
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6/10/2024 3:58pm Edited Date/Time 6/10/2024 3:59pm
aees wrote:
If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30...

If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30 degree incline. Simple. Of course some national variations exists. And some don't care (hence the situation..) 

It extends to everything from 70 degree jump faces, to 30 degree landings, 9m minimum distance between race lines, 2m minimum free Zones, minimum width of start corners, maximum average speed for racers in race conditions to be 50 or 60km/h, height for wave sections is fixed, even the width of fence poles can be maximum 70-80mm width, and using 3 or 4 mm wires.

You guys really have no clue why there is a case here? It's so ignorant coming from people claiming to be in the sport.

Be safe, fix the obvious issues, or risk getting sued. But don't come crying and act surprised when shit goes sideways. 

truck wrote:

I read the entire complaint and they mention none of this....  so...... maybe you're the one that doesn't know that the claim is about?

aees wrote:

Ah so the claim is not about the track (corner) being unsafe and cause for the injuries.

You are right, I got that wrong. 😂

The guidelines.....  You insist these things carry some weight but the personal injury lawyer went with statement from old guy racer instead of citing any of them. Just an oversight on his part, I'm sure. 

And again, if this is the threshold for litigation, especially with your beloved guidelines, then just consider the sport a piece of history. It's done. 

2
Tyler D
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6/10/2024 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 6/10/2024 4:04pm
aees wrote:
I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm. I have...

I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm.

I have been part of many such inspections, and built track to be compliant to them. 

Just go by that, and you can see who is in the wrong.

link to regs please. also do they apply to GPs like indonesia? just curious

1
aees
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6/10/2024 4:08pm
GrapeApe wrote:

He's talking about FIM guidelines, I'm guessing English isn't his first language.

aees wrote:

Exactly. For some people to go after others, and miss the obvious. Oh the irony 😅

GrapeApe wrote:

Just to be clear, I think the FIM guidelines are asinine. But I'll defend your grammar and spelling if English isn't your first language.

Most of tracks comply with them, and there are of course some things that are more idiotic then others. But in general, there is no problem building tracks that are complying. Some things end up gray area and unsafe but unregulated obstacles, designs comes up all the time. Impossible to cover all situations. 

There is a pretty large amount of unofficial guidelines that is not in the books, that track inspectors just doesn't let pass. 

All in all, it's not a big hurdle to build safe(er) tracks and FIM vs US tracks doesn't seem to alter or affect development on any side even though they are kind of different in character (been training in both west and east coast US myself). 

3
6/10/2024 4:10pm
GrapeApe wrote:

He's talking about FIM guidelines, I'm guessing English isn't his first language.

aees wrote:

Exactly. For some people to go after others, and miss the obvious. Oh the irony 😅

GrapeApe wrote:

Just to be clear, I think the FIM guidelines are asinine. But I'll defend your grammar and spelling if English isn't your first language.

No I admit to being a total a-hole if English isn't his first language. That's on me. 

TooTallJason
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6/10/2024 4:11pm Edited Date/Time 6/10/2024 4:12pm
aees wrote:
If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30...

If you had been anywhere close to building or even racing FIM tracks, you would know exactly how regulated it is. Berms maximum 50cm and 30 degree incline. Simple. Of course some national variations exists. And some don't care (hence the situation..) 

It extends to everything from 70 degree jump faces, to 30 degree landings, 9m minimum distance between race lines, 2m minimum free Zones, minimum width of start corners, maximum average speed for racers in race conditions to be 50 or 60km/h, height for wave sections is fixed, even the width of fence poles can be maximum 70-80mm width, and using 3 or 4 mm wires.

You guys really have no clue why there is a case here? It's so ignorant coming from people claiming to be in the sport.

Be safe, fix the obvious issues, or risk getting sued. But don't come crying and act surprised when shit goes sideways. 

truck wrote:

I read the entire complaint and they mention none of this....  so...... maybe you're the one that doesn't know that the claim is about?

aees wrote:

Ah so the claim is not about the track (corner) being unsafe and cause for the injuries.

You are right, I got that wrong. 😂

https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/CIRCUIT_RULES_2023.pdf?t=1677503220#page

 

That’s the most recent document I can find officially from the FIM I don’t see a lot of the rules Aees is talking about. Furthermore even he said ever country has their own standards. 
 

Aees, you’re forgetting this is America. There are no rules set in place about standards regarding a motocross track. Lawsuits like the one brought by Richard are decided by judges or random citizens and it’s all what you can convince them of. Your FIM rules have no weight or bearing on this case. Even still I fail to see any language that would apply. Maybe I’m wrong though. 
 

edit: link does not take you to first page of pdf, just scroll up. 

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aees
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6/10/2024 4:16pm
aees wrote:
I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm. I have...

I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm.

I have been part of many such inspections, and built track to be compliant to them. 

Just go by that, and you can see who is in the wrong.

Tyler D wrote:

link to regs please. also do they apply to GPs like indonesia? just curious

Special case I would say. MXGP inspect the tracks, with FIM representatives (not sure if FIM is there for the very far fly away). But since tracks are only used for FIM Pro race, I canimagine the regulations being more relaxed.

Same with Turkey, Matterly Bassin. It's not like they will have thousands of racers over a year and open 3-5 days per week for the general public. 

I know MXGP riders will raise their opinions if something isn't safe. That's why they now have points on Saturdays 😅 (key riders refused to race unsafe Saturday quali). I have heard them fix things that isn't safe on track before. 

​​​On national race days, we always walk the complete track the day before with FIM (or equal), local track safety people, race director and riders representatives. Anything that is brought up is documented, and needs to be fixed before race starts next day. 

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OldTech
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6/10/2024 4:20pm
Richy wrote:
^ same here man, only one part matters and it was correct. I'm not interested in who said what after the fact or if some old...

^ same here man, only one part matters and it was correct. I'm not interested in who said what after the fact or if some old local pro told a track worker that a perfectly fine corner wasn't actually perfectly fine.

I'm not gonna jump on some cooksey band wagon, EVER, he has his own issues and problems and agenda and I'm not about his style of click baity, me against the world reporting...

But in this one specific case, he got the one important detail right and said it like it was when nobody else was saying it.

I don't agree with anything about this fiasco or the podcast thing, but Rick Ryan is not "some old local pro"! He's an old real pro who made mains regularly, and won a Supercross!

aees
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6/10/2024 4:23pm
truck wrote:

I read the entire complaint and they mention none of this....  so...... maybe you're the one that doesn't know that the claim is about?

aees wrote:

Ah so the claim is not about the track (corner) being unsafe and cause for the injuries.

You are right, I got that wrong. 😂

https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/CIRCUIT_RULES_2023.pdf?t=1677503220#page   That’s the most recent document I can find officially from the FIM I don’t see a lot of the rules Aees is talking about...

https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/CIRCUIT_RULES_2023.pdf?t=1677503220#page

 

That’s the most recent document I can find officially from the FIM I don’t see a lot of the rules Aees is talking about. Furthermore even he said ever country has their own standards. 
 

Aees, you’re forgetting this is America. There are no rules set in place about standards regarding a motocross track. Lawsuits like the one brought by Richard are decided by judges or random citizens and it’s all what you can convince them of. Your FIM rules have no weight or bearing on this case. Even still I fail to see any language that would apply. Maybe I’m wrong though. 
 

edit: link does not take you to first page of pdf, just scroll up. 

Every nation is it's own, but under FIM. But they all have pretty similar setup. One thing that differ is sorting of riders. In some countries they go by speed, some by bike class <125 and >125.

I never said FIM has any bearing officially . I just said it's pretty obvious why there is a case when you look at it from a track safety perspective since those corners specifically are deemed to be unsafe (50cm 30 degree, or fence) for a reason from other professional instances/actors/etc in the sport. 

2
6/10/2024 5:06pm

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the FIM safety regulations have to do with a privately owned southern California MX track.

5
6/10/2024 5:11pm

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the FIM safety regulations have to do with a privately owned southern California MX track.

It's because of the board of directors, duuuuuh

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PNWMXer
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6/10/2024 5:11pm
aees wrote:
I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm. I have...

I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm.

I have been part of many such inspections, and built track to be compliant to them. 

Just go by that, and you can see who is in the wrong.

I’ll say it again…chose to race there anyway.

3
Meister
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6/10/2024 5:42pm
Can you provide these documents? I just went through the 2022 guide and I could see where the maximum obstacle height is 6m, but also that...

Can you provide these documents? I just went through the 2022 guide and I could see where the maximum obstacle height is 6m, but also that trackside banking to indicate track limits must be at minimum height of 50cm.  I saw no language specific to the backside of berms. 

aees wrote:
Most of the FIM countries has something to address this. If not specifically, there is no chance that corners gets approved if the safety inspectors doesn't...

Most of the FIM countries has something to address this. If not specifically, there is no chance that corners gets approved if the safety inspectors doesn't have a bad day (it happens...). 

The general rule has been, if there is a berm, you need to fence it ontop. Most tracks just take down the berms instead. To much work otherwise. 

That why you do pre-checks before doing the actual track inspection. 

 

Dude you are just plain wrong. Also, not to be a d-bag, but the level of grammar and spelling I'm seeing is not indicative of someone...

Dude you are just plain wrong. Also, not to be a d-bag, but the level of grammar and spelling I'm seeing is not indicative of someone with the resumé you claim to have.

Hes just full of shit. 

1
OldTech
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6/10/2024 5:53pm

Is the track still open? Can I ride my ATC there?

2
1
6/10/2024 6:02pm

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the FIM safety regulations have to do with a privately owned southern California MX track.

I'm trying to wrap my head around a berm over 50cm being unsafe. That's less than 20 inches for my fellow simple people on this side of the pond.

5
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race
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6/10/2024 6:08pm

FFS ... this thing is still being debated. 

Here is the corner -

image-20240610174027-1

There is no 30' / two-story cliff. Nor would it be considered a high speed section. Typically you would hit that in 3rd gear, probably slowing from 4th.The back side of it is soft loose fill dirt. You could roll, fall, tumble in it all day and not get a scratch.The entire parking lot ( and usually a bleacher section ) has a clear view of it.

They have had multiple versions of this on both tracks for years. The worst I have ever seen is someone goes a little high on the berm, loses momentum and has to step off the bike down the berm. Suffering little more than a grade 2 embarrassment. You really, really, really have to try to eff this one up.

Even if you miss your brakes and come in hot the berm is tall enough and steep enough that all you have to do is initiate the turn. The fact that he launched completely past the soft backside of the berm onto the harder flats tells me he not only missed his braking point but whisky throttled as well. And apparently was not able to initiate any turning movement.

Well, I'm sorry but that is called being out of control. You could have a chain link fence on top of the berm and he probably would have climbed that too. Who knows? But don't call this an unsafe track section. If someone is completely out of control then that is on them, not the track.

As for Rick Ryan ... I don't even know what to say. Maybe he thought he was helping a friend? If he actually reported that to someone at the track, they probably took one look at the section he was referring to and realized there was no problem they needed to fix.

BTW - steep banked turns like that are serious fun - for all levels - and I hope they never stop building them.

 

37
1
6/10/2024 6:15pm
race wrote:
FFS ... this thing is still being debated.  Here is the corner - There is no 30' / two-story cliff. Nor would it be considered a...

FFS ... this thing is still being debated. 

Here is the corner -

image-20240610174027-1

There is no 30' / two-story cliff. Nor would it be considered a high speed section. Typically you would hit that in 3rd gear, probably slowing from 4th.The back side of it is soft loose fill dirt. You could roll, fall, tumble in it all day and not get a scratch.The entire parking lot ( and usually a bleacher section ) has a clear view of it.

They have had multiple versions of this on both tracks for years. The worst I have ever seen is someone goes a little high on the berm, loses momentum and has to step off the bike down the berm. Suffering little more than a grade 2 embarrassment. You really, really, really have to try to eff this one up.

Even if you miss your brakes and come in hot the berm is tall enough and steep enough that all you have to do is initiate the turn. The fact that he launched completely past the soft backside of the berm onto the harder flats tells me he not only missed his braking point but whisky throttled as well. And apparently was not able to initiate any turning movement.

Well, I'm sorry but that is called being out of control. You could have a chain link fence on top of the berm and he probably would have climbed that too. Who knows? But don't call this an unsafe track section. If someone is completely out of control then that is on them, not the track.

As for Rick Ryan ... I don't even know what to say. Maybe he thought he was helping a friend? If he actually reported that to someone at the track, they probably took one look at the section he was referring to and realized there was no problem they needed to fix.

BTW - steep banked turns like that are serious fun - for all levels - and I hope they never stop building them.

 

While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping.

You say it's not a high speed section, but you also say you're entering that corner in 3rd coming down from 4th? How bad are you lugging your bike to think 3rd and 4th isn't high speed??

You said the fact he crashed the way he did "tells you he missed his brake and whiskey throttled?" Yeah, he told all of us that in his Instagram post about the crash. If you're going to throw your long-winded opinion in the mix, at least educate yourself on the facts of the thing you're speaking of. 

Just because you are on the side of this being a ridiculous thing to blame the track for, doesn't mean you're making good points. You're not.

3
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6/10/2024 6:20pm
While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping. You say it's not a high speed section, but you also...

While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping.

You say it's not a high speed section, but you also say you're entering that corner in 3rd coming down from 4th? How bad are you lugging your bike to think 3rd and 4th isn't high speed??

You said the fact he crashed the way he did "tells you he missed his brake and whiskey throttled?" Yeah, he told all of us that in his Instagram post about the crash. If you're going to throw your long-winded opinion in the mix, at least educate yourself on the facts of the thing you're speaking of. 

Just because you are on the side of this being a ridiculous thing to blame the track for, doesn't mean you're making good points. You're not.

Are you saying 3rd gear is now considered high speed? No one is going to hit that in 4th. And you can go fairly slow in 3rd. Have you ridden it? It is not a high speed corner.

1
1
NSP139
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6/10/2024 6:24pm
aees wrote:

Ah so the claim is not about the track (corner) being unsafe and cause for the injuries.

You are right, I got that wrong. 😂

https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/CIRCUIT_RULES_2023.pdf?t=1677503220#page   That’s the most recent document I can find officially from the FIM I don’t see a lot of the rules Aees is talking about...

https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/CIRCUIT_RULES_2023.pdf?t=1677503220#page

 

That’s the most recent document I can find officially from the FIM I don’t see a lot of the rules Aees is talking about. Furthermore even he said ever country has their own standards. 
 

Aees, you’re forgetting this is America. There are no rules set in place about standards regarding a motocross track. Lawsuits like the one brought by Richard are decided by judges or random citizens and it’s all what you can convince them of. Your FIM rules have no weight or bearing on this case. Even still I fail to see any language that would apply. Maybe I’m wrong though. 
 

edit: link does not take you to first page of pdf, just scroll up. 

aees wrote:
Every nation is it's own, but under FIM. But they all have pretty similar setup. One thing that differ is sorting of riders. In some countries...

Every nation is it's own, but under FIM. But they all have pretty similar setup. One thing that differ is sorting of riders. In some countries they go by speed, some by bike class <125 and >125.

I never said FIM has any bearing officially . I just said it's pretty obvious why there is a case when you look at it from a track safety perspective since those corners specifically are deemed to be unsafe (50cm 30 degree, or fence) for a reason from other professional instances/actors/etc in the sport. 

If I'm understanding you correctly you say that the FIM  allows certain obstacles out of Regulation as long as the riders approve? Wouldn't this be the same as a rider riding Practice and showing up to the start line with no objections?

6/10/2024 6:30pm
While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping. You say it's not a high speed section, but you also...

While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping.

You say it's not a high speed section, but you also say you're entering that corner in 3rd coming down from 4th? How bad are you lugging your bike to think 3rd and 4th isn't high speed??

You said the fact he crashed the way he did "tells you he missed his brake and whiskey throttled?" Yeah, he told all of us that in his Instagram post about the crash. If you're going to throw your long-winded opinion in the mix, at least educate yourself on the facts of the thing you're speaking of. 

Just because you are on the side of this being a ridiculous thing to blame the track for, doesn't mean you're making good points. You're not.

race wrote:
Are you saying 3rd gear is now considered high speed? No one is going to hit that in 4th. And you can go fairly slow in...

Are you saying 3rd gear is now considered high speed? No one is going to hit that in 4th. And you can go fairly slow in 3rd. Have you ridden it? It is not a high speed corner.

I'm saying 4th is high speed, for sure. Yeah. 

2
2
731chopper
Posts
4227
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX, USA
6/10/2024 6:34pm

I’m not sure where I land in this exactly but one of my opinions is that if you allow your minor aged child to go out there and race, you are accepting the conditions and build of the track. Ignorance of not knowing a steep drop off exists is not an acceptable excuse. If your child’s safety is that important to you then you should walk the entire track and know exactly what you’re sending your kid to race on.
 

I believe in many instances like this people are unwilling to accept fault of their own actions because it’s too painful to accept, especially when it results in such severe consequences for their child. So they shift the blame to someone else like the track in this instance. He allowed his child to race. He accepted the track for what it was. Now, had there been a hidden booby trap out there or they routed the track to a different section mid race where the accident happened then my opinion would probably be different. 
 

I have three kids so I can understand the pain Rich feels but, yeah, I’m thinking the blame was misplaced. 

15
OldTech
Posts
1286
Joined
1/13/2024
Location
Decatur, AL, USA
6/10/2024 6:36pm
race wrote:
FFS ... this thing is still being debated.  Here is the corner - There is no 30' / two-story cliff. Nor would it be considered a...

FFS ... this thing is still being debated. 

Here is the corner -

image-20240610174027-1

There is no 30' / two-story cliff. Nor would it be considered a high speed section. Typically you would hit that in 3rd gear, probably slowing from 4th.The back side of it is soft loose fill dirt. You could roll, fall, tumble in it all day and not get a scratch.The entire parking lot ( and usually a bleacher section ) has a clear view of it.

They have had multiple versions of this on both tracks for years. The worst I have ever seen is someone goes a little high on the berm, loses momentum and has to step off the bike down the berm. Suffering little more than a grade 2 embarrassment. You really, really, really have to try to eff this one up.

Even if you miss your brakes and come in hot the berm is tall enough and steep enough that all you have to do is initiate the turn. The fact that he launched completely past the soft backside of the berm onto the harder flats tells me he not only missed his braking point but whisky throttled as well. And apparently was not able to initiate any turning movement.

Well, I'm sorry but that is called being out of control. You could have a chain link fence on top of the berm and he probably would have climbed that too. Who knows? But don't call this an unsafe track section. If someone is completely out of control then that is on them, not the track.

As for Rick Ryan ... I don't even know what to say. Maybe he thought he was helping a friend? If he actually reported that to someone at the track, they probably took one look at the section he was referring to and realized there was no problem they needed to fix.

BTW - steep banked turns like that are serious fun - for all levels - and I hope they never stop building them.

 

While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping. You say it's not a high speed section, but you also...

While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping.

You say it's not a high speed section, but you also say you're entering that corner in 3rd coming down from 4th? How bad are you lugging your bike to think 3rd and 4th isn't high speed??

You said the fact he crashed the way he did "tells you he missed his brake and whiskey throttled?" Yeah, he told all of us that in his Instagram post about the crash. If you're going to throw your long-winded opinion in the mix, at least educate yourself on the facts of the thing you're speaking of. 

Just because you are on the side of this being a ridiculous thing to blame the track for, doesn't mean you're making good points. You're not.

The kid completely lost control. He did not turn. Did not slow down. No other rider did that 

7
Tyler D
Posts
2324
Joined
12/5/2022
Location
La, CA, USA
6/10/2024 6:38pm
aees wrote:
I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm. I have...

I'll say it again. That track would have never ever passed a proper national FIM safety check. Specially that kind of built up berm.

I have been part of many such inspections, and built track to be compliant to them. 

Just go by that, and you can see who is in the wrong.

Tyler D wrote:

link to regs please. also do they apply to GPs like indonesia? just curious

aees wrote:
Special case I would say. MXGP inspect the tracks, with FIM representatives (not sure if FIM is there for the very far fly away). But since...

Special case I would say. MXGP inspect the tracks, with FIM representatives (not sure if FIM is there for the very far fly away). But since tracks are only used for FIM Pro race, I canimagine the regulations being more relaxed.

Same with Turkey, Matterly Bassin. It's not like they will have thousands of racers over a year and open 3-5 days per week for the general public. 

I know MXGP riders will raise their opinions if something isn't safe. That's why they now have points on Saturdays 😅 (key riders refused to race unsafe Saturday quali). I have heard them fix things that isn't safe on track before. 

​​​On national race days, we always walk the complete track the day before with FIM (or equal), local track safety people, race director and riders representatives. Anything that is brought up is documented, and needs to be fixed before race starts next day. 

special case for a GP, but lacr needs to step it up..

 

1
1
6/10/2024 6:45pm
race wrote:
FFS ... this thing is still being debated.  Here is the corner - There is no 30' / two-story cliff. Nor would it be considered a...

FFS ... this thing is still being debated. 

Here is the corner -

image-20240610174027-1

There is no 30' / two-story cliff. Nor would it be considered a high speed section. Typically you would hit that in 3rd gear, probably slowing from 4th.The back side of it is soft loose fill dirt. You could roll, fall, tumble in it all day and not get a scratch.The entire parking lot ( and usually a bleacher section ) has a clear view of it.

They have had multiple versions of this on both tracks for years. The worst I have ever seen is someone goes a little high on the berm, loses momentum and has to step off the bike down the berm. Suffering little more than a grade 2 embarrassment. You really, really, really have to try to eff this one up.

Even if you miss your brakes and come in hot the berm is tall enough and steep enough that all you have to do is initiate the turn. The fact that he launched completely past the soft backside of the berm onto the harder flats tells me he not only missed his braking point but whisky throttled as well. And apparently was not able to initiate any turning movement.

Well, I'm sorry but that is called being out of control. You could have a chain link fence on top of the berm and he probably would have climbed that too. Who knows? But don't call this an unsafe track section. If someone is completely out of control then that is on them, not the track.

As for Rick Ryan ... I don't even know what to say. Maybe he thought he was helping a friend? If he actually reported that to someone at the track, they probably took one look at the section he was referring to and realized there was no problem they needed to fix.

BTW - steep banked turns like that are serious fun - for all levels - and I hope they never stop building them.

 

While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping. You say it's not a high speed section, but you also...

While we are on the same "side" of this argument, dude, you are not helping.

You say it's not a high speed section, but you also say you're entering that corner in 3rd coming down from 4th? How bad are you lugging your bike to think 3rd and 4th isn't high speed??

You said the fact he crashed the way he did "tells you he missed his brake and whiskey throttled?" Yeah, he told all of us that in his Instagram post about the crash. If you're going to throw your long-winded opinion in the mix, at least educate yourself on the facts of the thing you're speaking of. 

Just because you are on the side of this being a ridiculous thing to blame the track for, doesn't mean you're making good points. You're not.

OldTech wrote:

The kid completely lost control. He did not turn. Did not slow down. No other rider did that 

Oh I'm aware, the kid literally said that in his Instagram post about the crash. Makes the lawsuit even more insane. 

4
6/10/2024 7:08pm

Some of y’all just need to agree to disagree at this points. Just back and forth trying to convince the other side of why your side is the right side and it’s going absolutely nowhere lol

9

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