KYB forks on a ktm

Rotaholic
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7/4/2023 2:21pm

Why? He already said he liked it better than the stock geometry on his other bike.

Luxon MX wrote:
He's welcome to do whatever he wants, really! But stock geometry on that bike is quite good. Knowing where he is now vs. stock gives him...

He's welcome to do whatever he wants, really! But stock geometry on that bike is quite good. Knowing where he is now vs. stock gives him an idea of what's changed and whether or not that's really a good thing. Plus his comparison is to an XC-F; not terrible, but not exactly apples to apples. 18 vs 19 inch rear wheel, etc. all play a part in how it will ride.

And straying too far from the stock geometry on that generation of KTM is not likely to yield great results. Maybe it feels good simply because the fork is better, but it's leaving some performance on the table he doesn't realize since there's no reference to what has actually changed geometrically? You don't know unless you measure it!

You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there...

You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there, and eventually pick up a new ride which is completely different in every way -- just like him going from his 18" wheeled bike to his used KYB-equipped bike.

This 100% it's amazing how long people can ride on a flat tyre without even noticing it. Sometimes we have information saturation overload. The best formula for setting up a bike is the "better, worse, the same" method.

In saying that, fork lug offset plays a massive role in how the bike feels and turns. 

Luxon MX
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7/4/2023 2:21pm
You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there...

You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there, and eventually pick up a new ride which is completely different in every way -- just like him going from his 18" wheeled bike to his used KYB-equipped bike.

I'm not saying he has to measure it every ride; just one time to know what actually changed. Three minutes with a tape measure will sort it out; it doesn't take much. And on top of that, it's just my recommendation; he can do whatever he wants. 

Really, the only reason I responded at all is that he quoted my previous post that says it won't bolt right up with a photo of his bike implying the opposite (yet lacking the context that there were more changes to it than just bolting it up). Just trying to save someone else reading this from attempting the same thing without understanding what they're getting in to. 

14
1
7/4/2023 2:48pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2023 2:52pm
You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there...

You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there, and eventually pick up a new ride which is completely different in every way -- just like him going from his 18" wheeled bike to his used KYB-equipped bike.

Luxon MX wrote:
I'm not saying he has to measure it every ride; just one time to know what actually changed. Three minutes with a tape measure will sort...

I'm not saying he has to measure it every ride; just one time to know what actually changed. Three minutes with a tape measure will sort it out; it doesn't take much. And on top of that, it's just my recommendation; he can do whatever he wants. 

Really, the only reason I responded at all is that he quoted my previous post that says it won't bolt right up with a photo of his bike implying the opposite (yet lacking the context that there were more changes to it than just bolting it up). Just trying to save someone else reading this from attempting the same thing without understanding what they're getting in to. 

But you're still saying he should measure it once, which still provides nothing of value to him, since his last change was from an 18" wheeled XCF to this bike, which he prefers the handling with whatever way it is.

All that he is contributing is that it is indeed possible with some shims, and this dude likes the results.

13
Luxon MX
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7/4/2023 2:54pm
You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there...

You gotta realize most of us aren't taking exact measurements every time we ride. We ride the thing, we make a few changes here and there, and eventually pick up a new ride which is completely different in every way -- just like him going from his 18" wheeled bike to his used KYB-equipped bike.

Luxon MX wrote:
I'm not saying he has to measure it every ride; just one time to know what actually changed. Three minutes with a tape measure will sort...

I'm not saying he has to measure it every ride; just one time to know what actually changed. Three minutes with a tape measure will sort it out; it doesn't take much. And on top of that, it's just my recommendation; he can do whatever he wants. 

Really, the only reason I responded at all is that he quoted my previous post that says it won't bolt right up with a photo of his bike implying the opposite (yet lacking the context that there were more changes to it than just bolting it up). Just trying to save someone else reading this from attempting the same thing without understanding what they're getting in to. 

But you're still saying he should measure it once, which still provides nothing of value to him, since his last change was from an 18" wheeled...

But you're still saying he should measure it once, which still provides nothing of value to him, since his last change was from an 18" wheeled XCF to this bike, which he prefers the handling with whatever way it is.

All that he is contributing is that it is indeed possible with some shims, and this dude likes the results.

I'm just giving my advice based on what I know to be correct. You're welcome to ignore it.

9

The Shop

7/4/2023 3:11pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2023 3:30pm
Luxon MX wrote:
I'm not saying he has to measure it every ride; just one time to know what actually changed. Three minutes with a tape measure will sort...

I'm not saying he has to measure it every ride; just one time to know what actually changed. Three minutes with a tape measure will sort it out; it doesn't take much. And on top of that, it's just my recommendation; he can do whatever he wants. 

Really, the only reason I responded at all is that he quoted my previous post that says it won't bolt right up with a photo of his bike implying the opposite (yet lacking the context that there were more changes to it than just bolting it up). Just trying to save someone else reading this from attempting the same thing without understanding what they're getting in to. 

But you're still saying he should measure it once, which still provides nothing of value to him, since his last change was from an 18" wheeled...

But you're still saying he should measure it once, which still provides nothing of value to him, since his last change was from an 18" wheeled XCF to this bike, which he prefers the handling with whatever way it is.

All that he is contributing is that it is indeed possible with some shims, and this dude likes the results.

Luxon MX wrote:

I'm just giving my advice based on what I know to be correct. You're welcome to ignore it.

Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of valuable information for replication for folks who prefer this KYB feel, including him. Now, if he mentioned what changes to the lugs, etc from Yamaha, that might be a starting point.

The measurement wouldn't tell that.

You're looking at it as a parts designer starting from zero (or even a reference point), rather than a dude bolting on existing parts he likes the feel of and looking for affirmative results, which is the point of this whole thread.

8
soggy
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7/4/2023 3:30pm
Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of...

Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of valuable information for replication for folks who prefer this KYB feel, including him. Now, if he mentioned what changes to the lugs, etc from Yamaha, that might be a starting point.

The measurement wouldn't tell that.

You're looking at it as a parts designer starting from zero (or even a reference point), rather than a dude bolting on existing parts he likes the feel of and looking for affirmative results, which is the point of this whole thread.

Dude let it go. 

12
Luxon MX
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7/4/2023 3:32pm
Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of...

Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of valuable information for replication for folks who prefer this KYB feel, including him. Now, if he mentioned what changes to the lugs, etc from Yamaha, that might be a starting point.

The measurement wouldn't tell that.

You're looking at it as a parts designer starting from zero (or even a reference point), rather than a dude bolting on existing parts he likes the feel of and looking for affirmative results, which is the point of this whole thread.

I'm actually looking at it as an engineer/tester. Knowing what change was made relative to stock is incredibly useful and a good baseline everyone can reference. For example, if you know the KYB forks are 5 mm shorter than WP as another poster pointed out earlier, you can run them 5mm lower than you otherwise would which will likely be better. If you know the lugs have an additional 2 mm offset, you can hunt down some 20 mm clamps and try those. But if you don't know any of this (which can be found easily with some simple measurements) then you're running blind and guessing. 

11
NSP139
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7/4/2023 4:30pm
Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of...

Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of valuable information for replication for folks who prefer this KYB feel, including him. Now, if he mentioned what changes to the lugs, etc from Yamaha, that might be a starting point.

The measurement wouldn't tell that.

You're looking at it as a parts designer starting from zero (or even a reference point), rather than a dude bolting on existing parts he likes the feel of and looking for affirmative results, which is the point of this whole thread.

Luxon MX wrote:
I'm actually looking at it as an engineer/tester. Knowing what change was made relative to stock is incredibly useful and a good baseline everyone can reference...

I'm actually looking at it as an engineer/tester. Knowing what change was made relative to stock is incredibly useful and a good baseline everyone can reference. For example, if you know the KYB forks are 5 mm shorter than WP as another poster pointed out earlier, you can run them 5mm lower than you otherwise would which will likely be better. If you know the lugs have an additional 2 mm offset, you can hunt down some 20 mm clamps and try those. But if you don't know any of this (which can be found easily with some simple measurements) then you're running blind and guessing. 

Always appreciate your input!

4
NSP139
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7/4/2023 4:30pm
Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of...

Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of valuable information for replication for folks who prefer this KYB feel, including him. Now, if he mentioned what changes to the lugs, etc from Yamaha, that might be a starting point.

The measurement wouldn't tell that.

You're looking at it as a parts designer starting from zero (or even a reference point), rather than a dude bolting on existing parts he likes the feel of and looking for affirmative results, which is the point of this whole thread.

Luxon MX wrote:
I'm actually looking at it as an engineer/tester. Knowing what change was made relative to stock is incredibly useful and a good baseline everyone can reference...

I'm actually looking at it as an engineer/tester. Knowing what change was made relative to stock is incredibly useful and a good baseline everyone can reference. For example, if you know the KYB forks are 5 mm shorter than WP as another poster pointed out earlier, you can run them 5mm lower than you otherwise would which will likely be better. If you know the lugs have an additional 2 mm offset, you can hunt down some 20 mm clamps and try those. But if you don't know any of this (which can be found easily with some simple measurements) then you're running blind and guessing. 

Always appreciate your input!

1
Bruce372
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US
7/4/2023 4:35pm
But you're still saying he should measure it once, which still provides nothing of value to him, since his last change was from an 18" wheeled...

But you're still saying he should measure it once, which still provides nothing of value to him, since his last change was from an 18" wheeled XCF to this bike, which he prefers the handling with whatever way it is.

All that he is contributing is that it is indeed possible with some shims, and this dude likes the results.

Luxon MX wrote:

I'm just giving my advice based on what I know to be correct. You're welcome to ignore it.

Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of...

Got it, but even if we found out the geometry was different from stock KTM, it still wouldn't provide us with much in the way of valuable information for replication for folks who prefer this KYB feel, including him. Now, if he mentioned what changes to the lugs, etc from Yamaha, that might be a starting point.

The measurement wouldn't tell that.

You're looking at it as a parts designer starting from zero (or even a reference point), rather than a dude bolting on existing parts he likes the feel of and looking for affirmative results, which is the point of this whole thread.

I think the concerns people had was the forks weren't correctly installed and mismatched on the bike, creating a potential mechanical issue that could cause failure as well as poor performance. 

That has been addressed. 

KennyT
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7/4/2023 9:32pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2023 9:33pm

I don’t want to get deep into any discussion on this topic as I am totally clueless on how to do much more than filters, tires and oil changes. 

At my age (63) and the speed I am at now, I really do not need to worry about change in geometry as long as I feel comfortable on the bike, which I do. The guy I bought it from did the entire setup, front/rear and the Vortex ECU. His riding level was much more advanced than where I am at so he set it up for my weight/skill. I’ve ridden a lot of bikes over the years and although I am not comparing myself to any type of test rider I do know it feels very comfortable and my confidence level is at an all time high. I won’t touch anything on it as I love it. Now if a very skilled rider/tester got on the bike he may come back in and say it needs this/that, I really have no idea. The guy who built it is a multi time Baja winner and Vet Expert who knows more about setup than I could ever hope to. The jumping/bumps feel great but what I really love is the cornering. I have nothing against air forks, I would have bought this bike with the stock WP’s in a second. I’m just passing along how much I enjoy riding this bike. He made it sound easy to revert back to the WP’s if I wanted to. 
 

To be clear I never did ride this particular bike with the stock forks. My other bike was a 2023 XC-F with air forks that all I did was change pressure up/down, plus it did have the 18” rear. I kinda wish it was the 70’s again where all we did was buy Girlings/Konis, move the lower mount forward and go ride. 
 

I am learning a lot on this topic….thanks for all the contributions, I love learning 👍

1
Red7
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3/25/2024 5:50pm

Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been hoping Yamaha would come out with a 350 but its not looking promising. So I may break down and buy a KTM 350 soon but only if I put on a pair of my YZ forks. My understanding is I'll need approximately .5-.7mm shim for the power triple clamp and the WP fork is 5mm longer so I believe running the KYB forks flush with the top would be comparable. But what about the offset of the triple clamps/fork lugs? How similar are the specs? 

I can live with most shocks but am picky about forks (I have KYB SSS, KYB PSF1, and Showas from my 2023 KX450 that I hate even after multiple revalved). KYBs just work for me.

1
3/25/2024 6:19pm
Red7 wrote:
Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been...

Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been hoping Yamaha would come out with a 350 but its not looking promising. So I may break down and buy a KTM 350 soon but only if I put on a pair of my YZ forks. My understanding is I'll need approximately .5-.7mm shim for the power triple clamp and the WP fork is 5mm longer so I believe running the KYB forks flush with the top would be comparable. But what about the offset of the triple clamps/fork lugs? How similar are the specs? 

I can live with most shocks but am picky about forks (I have KYB SSS, KYB PSF1, and Showas from my 2023 KX450 that I hate even after multiple revalved). KYBs just work for me.

1
NeedMoto
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3/25/2024 8:08pm
Red7 wrote:
Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been...

Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been hoping Yamaha would come out with a 350 but its not looking promising. So I may break down and buy a KTM 350 soon but only if I put on a pair of my YZ forks. My understanding is I'll need approximately .5-.7mm shim for the power triple clamp and the WP fork is 5mm longer so I believe running the KYB forks flush with the top would be comparable. But what about the offset of the triple clamps/fork lugs? How similar are the specs? 

I can live with most shocks but am picky about forks (I have KYB SSS, KYB PSF1, and Showas from my 2023 KX450 that I hate even after multiple revalved). KYBs just work for me.

Your KYB on your Yami, won't feel the same on the Austrian bike. Keefer pounded it into my head, I finally gave in. I've been searching for that magical plushness that I can get on a Yami, that I can't get on my 23 KTM 350. I know the frame has a lot to do with it, but I like experimenting.

1
cwtoyota
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3/25/2024 8:52pm
Red7 wrote:
Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been...

Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been hoping Yamaha would come out with a 350 but its not looking promising. So I may break down and buy a KTM 350 soon but only if I put on a pair of my YZ forks. My understanding is I'll need approximately .5-.7mm shim for the power triple clamp and the WP fork is 5mm longer so I believe running the KYB forks flush with the top would be comparable. But what about the offset of the triple clamps/fork lugs? How similar are the specs? 

I can live with most shocks but am picky about forks (I have KYB SSS, KYB PSF1, and Showas from my 2023 KX450 that I hate even after multiple revalved). KYBs just work for me.

This and NeedMoto's comment about front end comfort was what lead to developing the kit SmokinJoe linked above.

The KTM fork lug offset is about 3mm more than the Yamaha SSS forks.  (I believe KTM is 35mm vs YZ at 32mm).

Dropping in the KYB internals with the appropriate spring rate for your bike maintains the geometry and flex character that KTM developed into the chassis.   

Most guys tell me they feel a dramatic reduction in the shock through your hands and forearms on slapper landings with the KYB swap.  Also, the lean angle traction and small bump comfort is improved without losing hold-up.   That depends on valving, springs and oil height in the KYB internals. 

When you have a good tuner work their magic, the KYB stuff is very very hard to beat.

The standard Yamaha SSS valving works well in an equivalent sized Austrian bike...   If you put 450F cartridges in your 125SX, it will likely be on the firm side.   A late model YZ250F cartridge works well in the 250F 350F 450F from Austria.   I convert all my older Yamaha forks to "leaf spring mid valve" for motocross.  That's the main difference in the late model Yamaha SSS KYB components.   That valving can be installed in Honda, Kawasaki or any other KYB cartridges, SSS isn't really anything more than a marketing name for the way Yamaha valves their suspension.

3
PTshox
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3/25/2024 10:32pm
Red7 wrote:
Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been...

Has anyone compared the fork Lug offset between the KYB SSS and the WP? I have 3 450s and a 250f at home and have been hoping Yamaha would come out with a 350 but its not looking promising. So I may break down and buy a KTM 350 soon but only if I put on a pair of my YZ forks. My understanding is I'll need approximately .5-.7mm shim for the power triple clamp and the WP fork is 5mm longer so I believe running the KYB forks flush with the top would be comparable. But what about the offset of the triple clamps/fork lugs? How similar are the specs? 

I can live with most shocks but am picky about forks (I have KYB SSS, KYB PSF1, and Showas from my 2023 KX450 that I hate even after multiple revalved). KYBs just work for me.

Are you riding off road? Moto or?

 

Valving will have a huge impact too.... As CW pointed out just dropping in the internals is a great starting point. But you have to tune that fork to make it work. And of course there is a lot of tuning  you can do to the KYB internals. 

 

1
TDC
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3/26/2024 12:10am

The KYB lowers fit into the WP uppers. Another thread has a guy that has a simple part to make it convert.

My '17 YZ250F fork is 10mm shorter. The lug off-set was corrected with '06 22mm off-set triples. Shimmed lower with dryer wall vent metal. Perfect thickness. 

Ppl get cornfused with my '06 plate and fender on my '24 300SX. Same with 200SX with the 300SX front end. Coppersmith hybrid aero with Ohlins cartridge. Same performance as the KYB. Had the right rate spring for my lighter 200SX.

Red7
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3/26/2024 5:28am

Thanks guys! I ride mostly MX.  Enzo in Cali does all my KYB stuff and I typically go with the national fork tubes.  I'll have to weigh going with inserts vs putting in one of my pairs of SSS forks but it's good to know the offset is about 3mm so I know what I'm dealing with.  At the end of the season, my current YZ450f will likely become a snowbike for our place in Utah so I can rob the forks off of that and slap on the crappy Showas or possibly even WP since air forks work pretty good on snowbikes and forks aren't quite as critical on snowbikes due to the 3D nature of snow.

resetjet
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3/26/2024 5:36am

I shimmed my 200 but it only sees the woods.  Its not as solid as a normal installation and its easy for them to spin on the clamps and lose alignment.  Not sure i would trust it for moto.  For that i would get new triples.

TDC
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3/26/2024 3:33pm
resetjet wrote:
I shimmed my 200 but it only sees the woods.  Its not as solid as a normal installation and its easy for them to spin on...

I shimmed my 200 but it only sees the woods.  Its not as solid as a normal installation and its easy for them to spin on the clamps and lose alignment.  Not sure i would trust it for moto.  For that i would get new triples.

I've yet to find an issue on the 200 or 300. You're not wrong about a proper set of triples of course.

200 for life! 

 

BikePilot
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3/27/2024 5:13am

KYB has A kit forks that bolt into the KTM, with all the correct geometry.  That's the way to go imo. 

1

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