AMA Misses Cooper's Gate Violation...

3/7/2024 7:31pm
Zoom wrote:
I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book... "Motorcycles must be centered in the starting...

I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book...

"Motorcycles must be centered in the starting gate."

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR

The rule states... The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be...

The rule states...

image-20240308135008-1

The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be, this rule like many other AMA rules is unenforceable.

If the AMA wanted to make it enforceable, they could paint 2 lines a tire width apart or slightly wider apart, in the center of the gate, if the tires are outside the line, the bike is not in the center, and the rider could be penalized.

gb4mx wrote:

I like your thinking, but By Gosh, more duties for the AMA? 

The fines could pay for another AMA official!

1
gb4mx
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3/7/2024 7:34pm
The rule states... The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be...

The rule states...

image-20240308135008-1

The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be, this rule like many other AMA rules is unenforceable.

If the AMA wanted to make it enforceable, they could paint 2 lines a tire width apart or slightly wider apart, in the center of the gate, if the tires are outside the line, the bike is not in the center, and the rider could be penalized.

gb4mx wrote:

I like your thinking, but By Gosh, more duties for the AMA? 

The fines could pay for another AMA official!

One AMA official per rider and one per mechanic. 

3/7/2024 7:38pm
Zoom wrote:
I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book... "Motorcycles must be centered in the starting...

I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book...

"Motorcycles must be centered in the starting gate."

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR

The rule states... The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be...

The rule states...

image-20240308135008-1

The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be, this rule like many other AMA rules is unenforceable.

If the AMA wanted to make it enforceable, they could paint 2 lines a tire width apart or slightly wider apart, in the center of the gate, if the tires are outside the line, the bike is not in the center, and the rider could be penalized.

The other thing I like about that rule is the last sentence - "Riders may not start at an angle". Okay... then everyone is violating the...

The other thing I like about that rule is the last sentence - "Riders may not start at an angle".

Okay... then everyone is violating the rule - because even if you're exactly perpendicular to the gate you are at a 90 degree angle... which is still an angleGrinning

I know what the intent is, but the way it's written is, umm, lacking? The more I read the AMA rulebook the more I laugh at the effort put into it. Silly

 

The intent or spirit of rules mean nothing, if it's not specific it can't be enforced.

Most of the AMA rules are poorly written.

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aeffertz
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3/7/2024 7:38pm Edited Date/Time 3/7/2024 8:06pm
Zoom wrote:
I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book... "Motorcycles must be centered in the starting...

I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book...

"Motorcycles must be centered in the starting gate."

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR

The rule states... The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be...

The rule states...

image-20240308135008-1

The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be, this rule like many other AMA rules is unenforceable.

If the AMA wanted to make it enforceable, they could paint 2 lines a tire width apart or slightly wider apart, in the center of the gate, if the tires are outside the line, the bike is not in the center, and the rider could be penalized.

It doesn’t say you must be lined up with a center mark. And to your argument how are you going to prove that a rider isn’t 1 degree out of square with the gate? 

It’s all based on an eye test and I think that is better than having insanely strict rules by having painted lines. That’s why I say if this wasn’t caught in the moment then they got away with one. Part of racing is pushing the boundaries in every single aspect. 
 

They got away with one, great! Don’t make yourself look dumb by going “well hypothetically what is ‘center’ of the gate?”

Basic eye test... Is Line A centered on Line B? Or should we start arguing "Actually, we technically don't know what the center of Line B is!" If you were being tested and the question was "Is Line A centered on Line B?" and the answers were 'Yes' or 'No', which would you pick?

image-20240307214340-1

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The Shop

3/7/2024 7:44pm
Zoom wrote:
I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book... "Motorcycles must be centered in the starting...

I guess with all the focus on Jett's tire cover, AMA missed Cooper's gate violation. From the rule book...

"Motorcycles must be centered in the starting gate."

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR

The rule states... The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be...

The rule states...

image-20240308135008-1

The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be, this rule like many other AMA rules is unenforceable.

If the AMA wanted to make it enforceable, they could paint 2 lines a tire width apart or slightly wider apart, in the center of the gate, if the tires are outside the line, the bike is not in the center, and the rider could be penalized.

aeffertz wrote:
It doesn’t say you must be lined up with a center mark. And to your argument how are you going to prove that a rider isn’t...

It doesn’t say you must be lined up with a center mark. And to your argument how are you going to prove that a rider isn’t 1 degree out of square with the gate? 

It’s all based on an eye test and I think that is better than having insanely strict rules by having painted lines. That’s why I say if this wasn’t caught in the moment then they got away with one. Part of racing is pushing the boundaries in every single aspect. 
 

They got away with one, great! Don’t make yourself look dumb by going “well hypothetically what is ‘center’ of the gate?”

Basic eye test... Is Line A centered on Line B? Or should we start arguing "Actually, we technically don't know what the center of Line B is!" If you were being tested and the question was "Is Line A centered on Line B?" and the answers were 'Yes' or 'No', which would you pick?

image-20240307214340-1

Read my post before posting!

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aeffertz
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3/7/2024 7:52pm Edited Date/Time 3/7/2024 7:54pm
The rule states... The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be...

The rule states...

image-20240308135008-1

The center of the gate is not marked, there is no tolerance for how close to the center the bike needs to be, this rule like many other AMA rules is unenforceable.

If the AMA wanted to make it enforceable, they could paint 2 lines a tire width apart or slightly wider apart, in the center of the gate, if the tires are outside the line, the bike is not in the center, and the rider could be penalized.

aeffertz wrote:
It doesn’t say you must be lined up with a center mark. And to your argument how are you going to prove that a rider isn’t...

It doesn’t say you must be lined up with a center mark. And to your argument how are you going to prove that a rider isn’t 1 degree out of square with the gate? 

It’s all based on an eye test and I think that is better than having insanely strict rules by having painted lines. That’s why I say if this wasn’t caught in the moment then they got away with one. Part of racing is pushing the boundaries in every single aspect. 
 

They got away with one, great! Don’t make yourself look dumb by going “well hypothetically what is ‘center’ of the gate?”

Basic eye test... Is Line A centered on Line B? Or should we start arguing "Actually, we technically don't know what the center of Line B is!" If you were being tested and the question was "Is Line A centered on Line B?" and the answers were 'Yes' or 'No', which would you pick?

image-20240307214340-1

Read my post before posting!

I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm saying no, they could penalize him for this, just like they could penalize a rider that's sitting at a 45 degree angle on the gate even though there are no distinct angle markings on the grate. And I'm also saying if it wasnt caught in the moment, then they shouldn't go back and apply a penalty. 

Village Idiot
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3/7/2024 8:01pm

The intent or spirit of rules mean nothing, if it's not specific it can't be enforced.

Most of the AMA rules are poorly written.

Zero argument here, brother. 

2
3/7/2024 8:20pm
aeffertz wrote:
It doesn’t say you must be lined up with a center mark. And to your argument how are you going to prove that a rider isn’t...

It doesn’t say you must be lined up with a center mark. And to your argument how are you going to prove that a rider isn’t 1 degree out of square with the gate? 

It’s all based on an eye test and I think that is better than having insanely strict rules by having painted lines. That’s why I say if this wasn’t caught in the moment then they got away with one. Part of racing is pushing the boundaries in every single aspect. 
 

They got away with one, great! Don’t make yourself look dumb by going “well hypothetically what is ‘center’ of the gate?”

Basic eye test... Is Line A centered on Line B? Or should we start arguing "Actually, we technically don't know what the center of Line B is!" If you were being tested and the question was "Is Line A centered on Line B?" and the answers were 'Yes' or 'No', which would you pick?

image-20240307214340-1

Read my post before posting!

aeffertz wrote:
I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm...

I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm saying no, they could penalize him for this, just like they could penalize a rider that's sitting at a 45 degree angle on the gate even though there are no distinct angle markings on the grate. And I'm also saying if it wasnt caught in the moment, then they shouldn't go back and apply a penalty. 

Using the eye test to enforce a rule is subjective, it opens the sport up to claims of favoritism, will the AMA turn a blind eye to Cooper, but enforce the rule for Anderson?

There are no tolerances in the rule for the position of the bike, if a bike is 0.001" off center it is braking the rule, every rider on the starting line would have been off center by at least 0.001", therefore the rule is unenforceable.

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aeffertz
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3/7/2024 8:29pm Edited Date/Time 3/7/2024 8:35pm

Read my post before posting!

aeffertz wrote:
I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm...

I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm saying no, they could penalize him for this, just like they could penalize a rider that's sitting at a 45 degree angle on the gate even though there are no distinct angle markings on the grate. And I'm also saying if it wasnt caught in the moment, then they shouldn't go back and apply a penalty. 

Using the eye test to enforce a rule is subjective, it opens the sport up to claims of favoritism, will the AMA turn a blind eye...

Using the eye test to enforce a rule is subjective, it opens the sport up to claims of favoritism, will the AMA turn a blind eye to Cooper, but enforce the rule for Anderson?

There are no tolerances in the rule for the position of the bike, if a bike is 0.001" off center it is braking the rule, every rider on the starting line would have been off center by at least 0.001", therefore the rule is unenforceable.

So are most rules in every other sport... I'm confused as to what you're advocating for... Zero rules? Laser guided rules? Why can't there be an obvious human element to some rulings in other humans performing sport? 

What's wrong with going "They're obviously skirting the rules here" vs. "there should be zero enforcement because the rules are not specific enough and down to a 0.001" clearance?" I feel like I'm getting sucked into a "well actually ☝️🤓" debate so I'm out.

Final statement: No one should be penalized now that we're looking back at it but I think this could equally have been a justified penalty had they caught it in the moment.

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3/7/2024 8:47pm
aeffertz wrote:
I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm...

I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm saying no, they could penalize him for this, just like they could penalize a rider that's sitting at a 45 degree angle on the gate even though there are no distinct angle markings on the grate. And I'm also saying if it wasnt caught in the moment, then they shouldn't go back and apply a penalty. 

Using the eye test to enforce a rule is subjective, it opens the sport up to claims of favoritism, will the AMA turn a blind eye...

Using the eye test to enforce a rule is subjective, it opens the sport up to claims of favoritism, will the AMA turn a blind eye to Cooper, but enforce the rule for Anderson?

There are no tolerances in the rule for the position of the bike, if a bike is 0.001" off center it is braking the rule, every rider on the starting line would have been off center by at least 0.001", therefore the rule is unenforceable.

aeffertz wrote:
So are most rules in every other sport... I'm confused as to what you're advocating for... Zero rules? Laser guided rules? Why can't there be an...

So are most rules in every other sport... I'm confused as to what you're advocating for... Zero rules? Laser guided rules? Why can't there be an obvious human element to some rulings in other humans performing sport? 

What's wrong with going "They're obviously skirting the rules here" vs. "there should be zero enforcement because the rules are not specific enough and down to a 0.001" clearance?" I feel like I'm getting sucked into a "well actually ☝️🤓" debate so I'm out.

Final statement: No one should be penalized now that we're looking back at it but I think this could equally have been a justified penalty had they caught it in the moment.

"Why can't there be an obvious human element to some rulings in other humans performing sport?"

^^^ this is open to interpretation and potential favoritism.

I'm saying the rule as currently written is unenforceable, because it specifies a position, but no tolerance, rules need to be black and white, not open to interpretation.

This would be easily solved by stating a tolerance, take your pick ±0.001", ±1", ±100" within the center of the gate.

Or the gates could be marked with 2 lines, and the rules changed stating the bike's tires must be between the 2 lines.

Or the starting gate could be changed with grating in the center and flat sheet either side, no rule required, start where every you want, but there will be no traction on the flat sheet.

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Village Idiot
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3/7/2024 9:20pm
aeffertz wrote:
I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm...

I did.. You said there is no center mark on the gate therefore the rider can line up wherever they want because it's unenforceable. And I'm saying no, they could penalize him for this, just like they could penalize a rider that's sitting at a 45 degree angle on the gate even though there are no distinct angle markings on the grate. And I'm also saying if it wasnt caught in the moment, then they shouldn't go back and apply a penalty. 

Using the eye test to enforce a rule is subjective, it opens the sport up to claims of favoritism, will the AMA turn a blind eye...

Using the eye test to enforce a rule is subjective, it opens the sport up to claims of favoritism, will the AMA turn a blind eye to Cooper, but enforce the rule for Anderson?

There are no tolerances in the rule for the position of the bike, if a bike is 0.001" off center it is braking the rule, every rider on the starting line would have been off center by at least 0.001", therefore the rule is unenforceable.

aeffertz wrote:
So are most rules in every other sport... I'm confused as to what you're advocating for... Zero rules? Laser guided rules? Why can't there be an...

So are most rules in every other sport... I'm confused as to what you're advocating for... Zero rules? Laser guided rules? Why can't there be an obvious human element to some rulings in other humans performing sport? 

What's wrong with going "They're obviously skirting the rules here" vs. "there should be zero enforcement because the rules are not specific enough and down to a 0.001" clearance?" I feel like I'm getting sucked into a "well actually ☝️🤓" debate so I'm out.

Final statement: No one should be penalized now that we're looking back at it but I think this could equally have been a justified penalty had they caught it in the moment.

"...I'm confused as to what you're advocating for..."

I'll give my 2 cents on that (even though I wasn't asked) - more specifics in the rules. I realize you can red-tape stuff to death and make it like govt regulations, but there's a balance between too vague and too cumbersome. Most of the AMA rules currently fall into the former category.

"...So are most rules in every other sport..."

I disagree when it comes to serious motorsports - see my previous example. NASCAR has rules that make the IRS seem like amateurs. They define and specify virtually everything that can be called into question (but there is a lot of money in the sport and they have the resources to craft the rules to make it "professional"). It wouldn't take much to tighten up a lot of the AMA rulebook.

And I know my "angle" example seems silly but is 100% accurate - 90 degrees still meets their definition of "an angle" - even though it's not what they meant, they couldn't argue that it isn't. That's the area where trial lawyers live and make a fortune - splitting hairs and letter of the law stuff. Most of the AMA rules are so vague they would never hold up under under even mild scrutiny.

But hey, I just want to watch good racing, not argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Grinning

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ADynes
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3/7/2024 9:46pm Edited Date/Time 3/8/2024 4:39am

OP is right (but at the same time I don't care that it wasn't caught). You need to pay attention to the edges of the grates to get an accurate sense of where center is. You can't go off of the missing paint on the gates, which are up in the air (parallax error).  These lines should help:

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR 1

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR 0.jpg?VersionId=yp7n2Sdr79iQ1

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RaceFan
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3/7/2024 10:14pm
If you look at the picture, yes Cooper is lined up off center to his right. Now using the worn paint on the gate as center...

If you look at the picture, yes Cooper is lined up off center to his right. Now using the worn paint on the gate as center both the #7 and the #18 are lined up off center to their left. You want to throw them all out or just pick on #32?

Parallax error for 7 and 18.

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StillSmokin
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3/7/2024 10:23pm

Leave it to retards on vital to argue that centered doesn't mean the fuckin middle of the gate lmao. Yall actually ARE this stupid 🤣

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3/7/2024 10:45pm
mikelawlor wrote:

Really splitting hairs here. He’s off a little maybe.

Zoom wrote:

Look how close he is to Roczen and how much space between him and Plessinger. Probably off center by several inches. 

If that is several inches then I have an 8- inch cock

Doesn't everyone?

ILoveMoto
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3/7/2024 10:49pm Edited Date/Time 3/7/2024 10:55pm
Zoom wrote:

Look how close he is to Roczen and how much space between him and Plessinger. Probably off center by several inches. 

If that is several inches then I have an 8- inch cock

Doesn't everyone?

Well I don't mean to brag...

Roosters-min

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wheeels
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3/7/2024 10:55pm
ILoveMoto wrote:

What advantage did he gain?

Its actually the same rule that applies in amatuer moto. If theres a rut you need to start in the rut and not just off to the side of it. They started really enforcing this at lorettas 10-12 years ago. Not so much because its an advantage, just annoying as hell for the guy you squish yourself next to. Very good chance of ruining that guys start and it can cause drama on the line if this rule isn't enforced

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3/7/2024 10:56pm

No one sane cares about this or Jett's incident.

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ILoveMoto
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3/7/2024 11:01pm
wheeels wrote:
Its actually the same rule that applies in amatuer moto. If theres a rut you need to start in the rut and not just off to...

Its actually the same rule that applies in amatuer moto. If theres a rut you need to start in the rut and not just off to the side of it. They started really enforcing this at lorettas 10-12 years ago. Not so much because its an advantage, just annoying as hell for the guy you squish yourself next to. Very good chance of ruining that guys start and it can cause drama on the line if this rule isn't enforced

Makes you wonder if Ken was so focused he didn't notice or he was simply ok with it. Now I want to watch a replay of their start tomorrow. 

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aledei
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3/7/2024 11:01pm
mikelawlor wrote:

Really splitting hairs here. He’s off a little maybe.

Zoom wrote:

Look how close he is to Roczen and how much space between him and Plessinger. Probably off center by several inches. 

Because Aron and Jett are more on the other side… take a look on front TyresCool

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aledei
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3/7/2024 11:07pm
ADynes wrote:
OP is right (but at the same time I don't care that it wasn't caught). You need to pay attention to the edges of the grates...

OP is right (but at the same time I don't care that it wasn't caught). You need to pay attention to the edges of the grates to get an accurate sense of where center is. You can't go off of the missing paint on the gates, which are up in the air (parallax error).  These lines should help:

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR 1

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR 0.jpg?VersionId=yp7n2Sdr79iQ1

Very interesting where you placed the left red stripe in relation to the others Laughing
Kenny also placed a few inches more toward Cooper.
In any case, it might help if you look at the front tire and the gate of all three bikes

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cwel11
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3/8/2024 2:26am
loftyair wrote:

Those gates seem wide. I don't remember having more than 3-4 inches on either side.

Thought the same thing. Half the time at our local races our bars are damn near touching ha

ADynes
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3/8/2024 4:46am Edited Date/Time 3/8/2024 5:40am
ADynes wrote:
OP is right (but at the same time I don't care that it wasn't caught). You need to pay attention to the edges of the grates...

OP is right (but at the same time I don't care that it wasn't caught). You need to pay attention to the edges of the grates to get an accurate sense of where center is. You can't go off of the missing paint on the gates, which are up in the air (parallax error).  These lines should help:

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR 1

IMG 20240307 192635202 HDR 0.jpg?VersionId=yp7n2Sdr79iQ1

aledei wrote:
Very interesting where you placed the left red stripe in relation to the others  Kenny also placed a few inches more toward Cooper. In any case...

Very interesting where you placed the left red stripe in relation to the others Laughing
Kenny also placed a few inches more toward Cooper.
In any case, it might help if you look at the front tire and the gate of all three bikes

The left line is right on the GRATE gap. Added the original picture for easy comparison. If anything I'm off a bit with the far right line. It's a phone edit and my thumbs are fat. I'd update it but not sure how to delete a pic once posted via phone.

The GATES are in the air at an angle, and the camera shot is at an angle. Can't go off the missing paint, parallax error.

Zoom
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3/8/2024 5:09am Edited Date/Time 3/8/2024 5:11am

Obviously Cooper lined up off center to line up with the rut in front of the gate. He ends up spinning to the right sending him to the left into Plessinger.

IMG 20240308 065015245 HDR

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Zoom
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3/8/2024 5:09am

IMG 20240308 065031674 HDR

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Zoom
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IMG 20240308 065042003 HDR

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Melicar
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3/8/2024 5:54am

^^End thread. 

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3/8/2024 5:58am
gerg wrote:

Nothing to see here at all.

Now if it was Jett on the other hand....

*Anderson

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