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Because the talent in this sport is already spread thin at the top level, and at the amateur level there are already 100 classes that make most motocross races redundant and a waste of time. Do we really need Open A,B,C, and Electric? Do we really want to add a bunch of Vet classes for no reason since they're essentially open classes anyways? What about the varying power levels available on electric bikes, those shouldn't be all in the same class right? Do we really want to split the talent on the pro side between 3 classes instead of 2? In my opinion it's just not necessary and makes things more complicated than they already are, there's no reason why electric can't be raced fairly and safely against gas in this sport, all of the concerns brough up before can be addressed. Nobody riding electric wants their own class, we just want to race the same classes we have before at whatever power level is deemed appropriate, which isn't that hard to accomplish.
...and he had to use an additional battery.
LMFAO.
🤣🤪
Yeah, don't understand all the hand-wringing about electrics competing directly w / gas. A couple guys in Europe competed in select events & their results were no better than their results with gas bikes although their starts may have been ..
Electrics will do some things a bit better & be at a disadvantage on other levels. At the Pro level ; A 260lb Varg is going to be no picnic on a steep, hacked up downhill or a high G rythum section. There's also an advantage gas bikes have with a clutch & being able to deploy stored energy on demand, pro's are really good using that to the fullest. Most all of the videos, tests & accolades that followed have been a product of riding the bike in pretty tame track conditions, have seen nothing that has been even remotely like any 2nd Moto of a national or the last 10 minutes of an utterly destroyed SX track.
Those are the conditions where races are won & lost & it's hard to imagine a 20-25 Lb heavier bike without a clutch as having an unfair advantage.
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Weight is the biggest disadvantage for Stark at least in SuperEnduro where bikes need to be nimble. The demo laps that Taddy did at the last couple of rounds it looked way too heavy to be competitive.
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You have a Stark, so you are telling me they do not ride or perform differently than your gas bikes? There is more to it than that, they are both bikes by design, but not the same. They do not ride or perform the same, and the HP difference between a Stark and a 450 is very close to the HP difference between a 125 and a 450, would you race them in the same class? Of course not. I know the power is tunable, but that can be changed easily at any point, I can't wait to see how long it will be before a mobile SIM module is created so tune changes can be done on in real time via mobile, you know it will happen.
If folks want to race them with ICE bikes right now, great! Do it in the open class. I have no idea how that will pan out at the amateur level, I guess that will depend on popularity. I suspect at this rate, cost will play into that, more folks are riding 2 strokes nowadays because of the cost of bikes (and for the joy of riding a 2T). I think we both know that they will not be racing together in AMA pro racing though, there is no amount of reasoning that would have them racing together at that level. Do I think there is a chance in the somewhat near future the big shows will be electric? I absolutely do, but it will be a weird transition, the bikes are only going to get better. When OEMs start actually pumping them out, pro riders will be on them, it is just a matter of time. I just don't think we are ever going to see the AMA let a Stark on the starting gate until the other OEMs have theirs on the gate as well.
I have been in the RC offroad scene since they were nitro.. I have seen a hobby/sport go from nitro, to probably 90% electric (nitro still exists outdoors). I have seen this all play out before. The benefit electric has done for that has been very awesome, it honestly probably saved that hobby. I have seen us go from NiCD to LiPO and that was a complete game changer.. I think when MX has that NiCD to LiPO moment (purely as an example of the technology significance), it will be huge. The Stark is a teaser for what is to come I believe, and I have two newer bikes waiting to trade in when that time comes. BUT, actual competitive electric in RC has been around for about 25 years now, and when you got to the races, there is a class for electric, and a class for nitro (and still classes for motor size, skill, etc.).. I am just saying it all solidifies the need for classes, that is all.
Thank you for such well argued post.
I don't agree with everything, I guess it depends mainly if you think performance can be balanced by regulations.
Also for pro classes, I think if you do run separate classes and if electrics become faster it would kill ICE pro racing much faster. Separate classes means you don't need to restrain electric performance, and when they get fasters lots of teams and pro riders would migrate there (not an issue for amateurs who are not looking purely for performance). If electrics were to race ICE you could still adjust the balance in case even capped at 60 hp electrics turn out to have too much of an advantage.
Right now the Varg is a podium contender for limited races, short stuff like SX, AX, it will take a bit of time to become equal with ICE, then also increase range to be competitive in MX at the pro level (the famous "30 min + 2 laps" criteria).
They could ride half batteries onboard those races and then it will be lighter than ICE bikes?
If you removed half the batteries, it could still put out 938Nm (which is equivalent to a 450f in 1st gear) at the rear wheel up to 42mph, which would be well below the top speed in SuperEnduro.
They absolutely perform differently, the question is how does that translate in lap times for amateur and pro level riders. I don’t have a good answer for that, and even if I did that’s not enough data to really know what kind of advantage we’re talking about here. It’s definitely not like jumping from a 125 to a 450, at some point there becomes a power level that’s unmanageable, and based on my experience and others it seems as though 450 level power is pretty much that limit and anything more can be a hinderance. Stark already has an app setting available for their pro riders that locks the power level for a set number of hours for competition use, and we’ll have a similar feature for our TruMoto app if necessary for competition. I think people put too much emphasis on power anyways, on a rough motocross track there are a lot more variables at play.
I completely agree that for now the best place for them in amateur level racing is open and vet classes, that will give a good indication of how the bikes stack up in a racing environment. If I hadn’t already had experience racing electric with gas in multiple different disciplines I probably wouldn’t be so against the idea of completely separate classes, but in my opinion it just doesn’t seem necessary in most scenarios. There is going to be a awkward transition time but we can either push through it early on or prolong it for years and years, I’d rather just get the experiment over with early on and figure out what power levels are reasonable now before they become an even larger portion of the racing population, just like they’ve done in Australia.
for the record, my 2 stroke is never going away but cost of ownership so far on the Varg has been outstanding. If you’re riding a lot there’s a lot of money that goes into oil, gas, engine parts, etc that just aren’t applicable to the Varg. Electric is not and probably won’t be an overall cheaper option, but the overall cost difference isn’t as much as people think over time.
It's always funny to check old itws, like this one: just two years ago, Anton told us about his projects...
“First, we’re going to make Stark the market leader in motocross, and that’s going to happen quite fast.
(...)
Our ambition is to prove our bike is superior by lining up on the start gate with the gas bikes. We want to race in MXGP and AMA supercross. We are currently talking with federations about that. We would look at doing some races in 2022, but full-time in 2023. Everyone believes the electric bike is the future and our ambition is to race MXGP in 2023."
BTW, has anyone actually put the Varg on a scale to check this?
"It is lighter than the current bikes, at least lighter than all the Japanese 450s and our bike is 110 kilos, and it is also lighter than the new KTM. Potentially it is the lightest of the 450s."
I'm still wondering why a long term test by someone like MXA flogging the shit out of the toaster hasn't been done yet. What are they scared of.
What could go wrong? I bet Anton's not old enough to remember MXA's Cannondale test.
Just kiddin', I guess the Varg is way better than the 400MX ever was. Still, I'd be willing to bet this weight assertion is a big fat lie.
While testing the prototype, Stark advertised a weight of 110kg (242lbs), with a 6.0kWh battery.
When the production model was released, the claimed weight changed to 118kg (260lbs), with a 6.5kWh battery.
Measured weight was 119kg (263lbs)...
What is funny about it?
They had ambitions, the federations through the influence of the current manufacturers blocked it's participation even though they had attempted to participate with the same tech in the same series but I guess it is so inferior and an uncompetitive terrible heavy pos that they blocked it to protect Taddy from being embarrassed...
Pit Row
The FIM and OEMs are so thoughtful of others!
Big props to the video team, this is an awesome production.
I like that at the press conference he is sat between a KTM and Husky rider knowing their bosses at the reason he is blocked.
Also I do think the safety regulations they imposed on Stark are a great thing, Maybe not the lanyard though and I think they should be regulated to mount the phone in front of of the seat rather than on the handlebars, we have a bar pad for a reason.
Why do you care so much?
Your old ass ain’t buying any dirt bike let alone a Stark.
Oh yeah, clearly, hadn't it been for the big bad FIM, they were totally ready to race MXGP in 2023, dominate the world and become the market leader.
You guys never cease to crack me up.
Track for round #3 looks good.
Nobody has more fun / better attitude than Manny !
I'm all for technical tracks but they must have an element of speed to them and this one hasn't. They ain't gonna get out of 2nd gear here.
Post a reply to: Taddy B. racing a Stark in SuperEnduro