Taddy B. racing a Stark in SuperEnduro

12/10/2023 5:30pm
JM485 wrote:
I’m sorry do you work for the AMA?  I’m trying to understand your background and if you’re speaking from a position of inside knowledge or are...

I’m sorry do you work for the AMA?  I’m trying to understand your background and if you’re speaking from a position of inside knowledge or are just making an assumption.  If you do work for the AMA myself and a few others from the electric industry would very like to have a serious discussion with you about the future and how this issue can be handled productively for both sides.  

I do. Email me contact info at mburkeen@ama-cycle.org

i would be happy to discuss electric motorcycles with you. 
 

its not a simple issue, but the AMA and FIM are working on getting it right. 

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1
12/10/2023 6:16pm
JM485 wrote:
I’m sorry do you work for the AMA?  I’m trying to understand your background and if you’re speaking from a position of inside knowledge or are...

I’m sorry do you work for the AMA?  I’m trying to understand your background and if you’re speaking from a position of inside knowledge or are just making an assumption.  If you do work for the AMA myself and a few others from the electric industry would very like to have a serious discussion with you about the future and how this issue can be handled productively for both sides.  

SlowOldGuy wrote:
I do. Email me contact info at mburkeen@ama-cycle.org i would be happy to discuss electric motorcycles with you.    its not a simple issue, but the...

I do. Email me contact info at mburkeen@ama-cycle.org

i would be happy to discuss electric motorcycles with you. 
 

its not a simple issue, but the AMA and FIM are working on getting it right. 

The AMA and FIM should be open about the rational for allowing or not allowing electric bikes to compete, otherwise people will be suspicious of existing manufacturers influencing regulations to maintain market dominance.

The Stark Varg has 938Nm rear wheel torque, which is equivalent to the maximum torque of a 450f in 1st gear, to be equivalent to 250f's, maximum power and maximum torque need to be limited.

Concerns about whiskey throttle could be addressed with lanyards, the repercussions of a fire on a motocross track are low, but risks in pits may need to be addressed.

Until electric bike's performance is better understood, instead of power limits, they should only be allowed to compete in amateur open classes.

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JM485
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12/10/2023 6:40pm
SlowOldGuy wrote:
I do. Email me contact info at mburkeen@ama-cycle.org i would be happy to discuss electric motorcycles with you.    its not a simple issue, but the...

I do. Email me contact info at mburkeen@ama-cycle.org

i would be happy to discuss electric motorcycles with you. 
 

its not a simple issue, but the AMA and FIM are working on getting it right. 

Thank you for the opportunity, email sent.  

 

You're absolutely correct, this is not a simple issue but I believe we can come to a reasonable solution that benefits all sides and takes advantage of the huge opportunity in front of us as a sport.  Looking forward to speaking with you more.  

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MxAddic
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12/11/2023 1:27am
JM485 wrote:
Thank you for the opportunity, email sent.     You're absolutely correct, this is not a simple issue but I believe we can come to a reasonable...

Thank you for the opportunity, email sent.  

 

You're absolutely correct, this is not a simple issue but I believe we can come to a reasonable solution that benefits all sides and takes advantage of the huge opportunity in front of us as a sport.  Looking forward to speaking with you more.  

Your going to have a reasonable conversation with someone you want something from but your unwilling to have a reasonable conversation here, HAH.

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The Shop

number six
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12/11/2023 9:44pm
JM485 wrote:
Thank you for the opportunity, email sent.     You're absolutely correct, this is not a simple issue but I believe we can come to a reasonable...

Thank you for the opportunity, email sent.  

 

You're absolutely correct, this is not a simple issue but I believe we can come to a reasonable solution that benefits all sides and takes advantage of the huge opportunity in front of us as a sport.  Looking forward to speaking with you more.  

Would very much like to see the electrics VS the current ICE bikes together in competition but the 'reasonable solution' of which you speak is contingent on the governing bodies actually desiring such an outcome .. not at all sure they do, for various reasons, not the least of which is pressure from established manufacturers.

Alta went down the same road & in the end were only allowed to compete in the private Straight Rhythm event where the usual & customary event sanctioning body had no say in the matter. 

If my understanding is correct - Stark complied with all requirements set forth by the FIM prior to the 1st super enduro event & were approved to participate, then on a Thursday night before the race weekend the FIM changed the rules stating NO electric bikes could compete going forward.  Sadly, this sets a precedent @ the professional level & it appears likely that we'll never get the kind of heads up racing between the two technologies we're all ( ok, some ) are hoping for.

Bargaining towards a mutually agreeable outcome only works if it's done in good faith & theres been no indication by those that hold the levers that they actually want this to happen & that it's just a matter of details & safety, witness the FIM debacle.    

 

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Elliot
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12/11/2023 11:31pm Edited Date/Time 12/11/2023 11:40pm

More bullshit with the way Superenduro is being run.

They disqualified Jorden Scott in Poland for jumping the bridge in practice when he was never told he couldn't. If you look at Dominik Olszowy's go pro lap he jumps it.

Another thing that really pisses me off is that you can buy your way into the prestige finals for 1100 Euros. Most of the well supported riders do, but riders trying to race the series on a budget like Jordan have to qualify. So one rule for the factory guys and another for the rest. 

 

 

 

 

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tek14
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12/11/2023 11:47pm
Elliot wrote:
More bullshit with the way Superenduro is being run. They disqualified Jorden Scott in Poland for jumping the bridge in practice when he was never told...

More bullshit with the way Superenduro is being run.

They disqualified Jorden Scott in Poland for jumping the bridge in practice when he was never told he couldn't. If you look at Dominik Olszowy's go pro lap he jumps it.

Another thing that really pisses me off is that you can buy your way into the prestige finals for 1100 Euros. Most of the well supported riders do, but riders trying to race the series on a budget like Jordan have to qualify. So one rule for the factory guys and another for the rest. 

 

 

 

 

So he wasnt in riders meeting and didnt follow rules. 

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Elliot
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12/12/2023 12:14am
Elliot wrote:
More bullshit with the way Superenduro is being run. They disqualified Jorden Scott in Poland for jumping the bridge in practice when he was never told...

More bullshit with the way Superenduro is being run.

They disqualified Jorden Scott in Poland for jumping the bridge in practice when he was never told he couldn't. If you look at Dominik Olszowy's go pro lap he jumps it.

Another thing that really pisses me off is that you can buy your way into the prestige finals for 1100 Euros. Most of the well supported riders do, but riders trying to race the series on a budget like Jordan have to qualify. So one rule for the factory guys and another for the rest. 

 

 

 

 

tek14 wrote:

So he wasnt in riders meeting and didnt follow rules. 

He was in his group's riders meeting where they were told they could jump. He wasn't in a subsequent and different group's riders meeting where they were told they couldn't.

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ron63
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12/12/2023 1:34am

What i've heard from a group B rider, that they were told they aren't allowed to jump it.

Elliot
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12/12/2023 7:00pm
ron63 wrote:

What i've heard from a group B rider, that they were told they aren't allowed to jump it.

You have to ask why they're designing tracks so bad that have to have their own rules on how to ride them.

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JM485
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12/12/2023 7:37pm

For what it's worth, myself and the owner of Electro & Co. had about an hour long conversation with Mike Burkeen (aka SlowOldGuy) today that I thought was very constructive.  While I don't necessarily agree with the all of the concerns raised regarding integrating electric bikes into existing classes, I do believe that there is desire on both sides to work towards a safe and viable solution over the coming years.  I learned quite a bit about how the supplemental rules actually work and why they've gone the direction that they have with them (this is actually beneficial to E-bikes in a way because they could have easily written them out of the official rulebook, but chose not to in an effort to leave the door somewhat open for future interpretation), and he gave us plenty of curtesy to voice our concerns as well as discuss some potential solutions to theirs.  While things might not be where I'd ideally like them to be right now, I do think Mike and the AMA are willing to be an ally rather than an enemy as we navigate these changes and I appreciate him taking our input into consideration and keeping the communication line open as we progress.  I know they have been in contact with the engineers at Stark as well to discuss these issue, so I think we're on the right track to making things happen!  

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12/12/2023 7:42pm
JM485 wrote:
For what it's worth, myself and the owner of Electro & Co. had about an hour long conversation with Mike Burkeen (aka SlowOldGuy) today that I...

For what it's worth, myself and the owner of Electro & Co. had about an hour long conversation with Mike Burkeen (aka SlowOldGuy) today that I thought was very constructive.  While I don't necessarily agree with the all of the concerns raised regarding integrating electric bikes into existing classes, I do believe that there is desire on both sides to work towards a safe and viable solution over the coming years.  I learned quite a bit about how the supplemental rules actually work and why they've gone the direction that they have with them (this is actually beneficial to E-bikes in a way because they could have easily written them out of the official rulebook, but chose not to in an effort to leave the door somewhat open for future interpretation), and he gave us plenty of curtesy to voice our concerns as well as discuss some potential solutions to theirs.  While things might not be where I'd ideally like them to be right now, I do think Mike and the AMA are willing to be an ally rather than an enemy as we navigate these changes and I appreciate him taking our input into consideration and keeping the communication line open as we progress.  I know they have been in contact with the engineers at Stark as well to discuss these issue, so I think we're on the right track to making things happen!  

I really enjoyed our conversation! At the end of the day we have more common ground than we do differences. Just got to work a few things out and get it right!  

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Beagle
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12/12/2023 10:49pm

From my armchair perspective it's nice to see the AMA (or any federation) engaging with all actors to try to get things right for everyone.

There are experimentations around the world with electrics competing with ICE (France, UK, Finland, Australia at the amateur level and maybe pro as well), Stark is willing to restrict their bike performance to compete with ICE, they are also open to answer any safety issues (for FIM super enduro it was fire marshal, lanyard among others), or to compete without gaining any championship points or prizes. This should help to better understand if fair competition is possible or not and define a stable set of rules.

Now if we could avoid this FIM super enduro debacle i.e. authorization to compete then last minute change of rules without any justification that will be better for the sport's credibility. In my opinion more transparency would go a long way.

Finally I understand many fear that electrics would have an unfair advantage over ICE, so they would like a separate class, fair enough. Following this reasoning, my question is: what happens IF this fear ever becomes reality? If this electric class becomes the fastest class then what? How is separating classes going to prevent riders from switching to the fastest bikes?

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12/12/2023 10:59pm
Dirtstache wrote:
The FIM Sucks, that's why we kicked them out of the US.  This comment earned me a suspension on thumpertalk. The site has gone so downhill...

The FIM Sucks, that's why we kicked them out of the US. 

This comment earned me a suspension on thumpertalk. The site has gone so downhill they are down to one moderator who apparently bans people he disagrees with in-between writing HOA citations. 

agn5008 wrote:

When did GuyB take over thumper talk?

Merica!!! Fuck yeah! 

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RACING
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12/12/2023 11:35pm

Look how nice, polite and friendly our electrical zealots can suddenly be when they feel things could finally go their way...

 

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MxAddic
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12/13/2023 2:09am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2023 2:11am
RACING wrote:

Look how nice, polite and friendly our electrical zealots can suddenly be when they feel things could finally go their way...

 

I don't really think things went their way (regardless they are doing a great job of sucking up) and I don't think they used their typical ad-hominem when the same concerns where voiced. I would have told them to pound salt.

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12/13/2023 5:21am
Elliot wrote:
More bullshit with the way Superenduro is being run. They disqualified Jorden Scott in Poland for jumping the bridge in practice when he was never told...

More bullshit with the way Superenduro is being run.

They disqualified Jorden Scott in Poland for jumping the bridge in practice when he was never told he couldn't. If you look at Dominik Olszowy's go pro lap he jumps it.

Another thing that really pisses me off is that you can buy your way into the prestige finals for 1100 Euros. Most of the well supported riders do, but riders trying to race the series on a budget like Jordan have to qualify. So one rule for the factory guys and another for the rest. 

 

 

 

 

tek14 wrote:

So he wasnt in riders meeting and didnt follow rules. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid024vs4GqcA9Z61w1uCThgC…
 

thats Jordans honest take on what happened. It was a shambles by the FIM!!

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smagical
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12/13/2023 5:51am

While I could see electric being an advantage for moto. I think It is far from an advantage for EnduroX / superenduro.  But regardless, I hope they can work things out in time for taddy to race the AMA EnduroX series. Glad to see both “sides” having a civil conversation. It turns out we aren’t all as different as the internet leads us to believe. Haha 

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Falcon
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12/13/2023 7:09am

The FIM's ruling clearly shows that the old guard is in a panic. How much do you guys want to wager that all restrictions will be lifted once the Big 5 have their own electric bikes? 

I say come up with some good, solid rules and let the e-bikes compete. 

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MxAddic
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12/13/2023 7:27am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2023 7:44am
Falcon wrote:
The FIM's ruling clearly shows that the old guard is in a panic. How much do you guys want to wager that all restrictions will be...

The FIM's ruling clearly shows that the old guard is in a panic. How much do you guys want to wager that all restrictions will be lifted once the Big 5 have their own electric bikes? 

I say come up with some good, solid rules and let the e-bikes compete. 

I am not  on board with the politics yet I am able to see a need for their own class. To think it's purely political is being quite naive.

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number six
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12/13/2023 8:29am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2023 8:37am
JM485 wrote:
For what it's worth, myself and the owner of Electro & Co. had about an hour long conversation with Mike Burkeen (aka SlowOldGuy) today that I...

For what it's worth, myself and the owner of Electro & Co. had about an hour long conversation with Mike Burkeen (aka SlowOldGuy) today that I thought was very constructive.  While I don't necessarily agree with the all of the concerns raised regarding integrating electric bikes into existing classes, I do believe that there is desire on both sides to work towards a safe and viable solution over the coming years.  I learned quite a bit about how the supplemental rules actually work and why they've gone the direction that they have with them (this is actually beneficial to E-bikes in a way because they could have easily written them out of the official rulebook, but chose not to in an effort to leave the door somewhat open for future interpretation), and he gave us plenty of curtesy to voice our concerns as well as discuss some potential solutions to theirs.  While things might not be where I'd ideally like them to be right now, I do think Mike and the AMA are willing to be an ally rather than an enemy as we navigate these changes and I appreciate him taking our input into consideration and keeping the communication line open as we progress.  I know they have been in contact with the engineers at Stark as well to discuss these issue, so I think we're on the right track to making things happen!  

SlowOldGuy wrote:
I really enjoyed our conversation! At the end of the day we have more common ground than we do differences. Just got to work a few...

I really enjoyed our conversation! At the end of the day we have more common ground than we do differences. Just got to work a few things out and get it right!  

So JM485 & SOG, tell us if you please ; what are these 'concerns' that are precluding the AMA from allowing electric into the party ? 

Surely the sticking points brought up in the conversation that you've now made quite public shouldn't be some sort of secret, everyone likes to speak of 'transparency' .. let's have some fellas.  

We'd very much like to know what these 'few things' are  ...    

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RACING
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12/13/2023 8:47am

Fun fact/reality check: the racing was great and no one missed Blazusiak or the Stark one bit.

 

 

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LungButter
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12/13/2023 9:18am
MxAddic wrote:
I am not  on board with the politics yet I am able to see a need for their own class. To think it's purely political is...

I am not  on board with the politics yet I am able to see a need for their own class. To think it's purely political is being quite naive.

The problem with your theory here is that e-bikes had previously been allowed to race and Stark was told they would be able to race...up until 24 hours before the race.

They were also previously allowed in the supplemental rules for Endurocross and now the AMA is telling us that rule is going to be changed for next year as well.

To think it's NOT political is completely naive. 

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LungButter
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12/13/2023 9:20am
RACING wrote:
Fun fact/reality check: the racing was great and no one missed Blazusiak or the Stark one bit.    

Fun fact/reality check: the racing was great and no one missed Blazusiak or the Stark one bit.

 

 

Nobody in Poland missed their hometown hero being able to race?

Were you there and took a poll?

Not denying the racing was awesome but to think the folks there didn't miss Taddy is either ignorant or has an agenda behind it...so what is it....you don't have much common sense or you are defending your agenda?

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MxAddic
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12/13/2023 10:15am
MxAddic wrote:
I am not  on board with the politics yet I am able to see a need for their own class. To think it's purely political is...

I am not  on board with the politics yet I am able to see a need for their own class. To think it's purely political is being quite naive.

LungButter wrote:
The problem with your theory here is that e-bikes had previously been allowed to race and Stark was told they would be able to race...up until...

The problem with your theory here is that e-bikes had previously been allowed to race and Stark was told they would be able to race...up until 24 hours before the race.

They were also previously allowed in the supplemental rules for Endurocross and now the AMA is telling us that rule is going to be changed for next year as well.

To think it's NOT political is completely naive. 

"purely"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purely

Trying to move the GP's again I see. LMAO!

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LungButter
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12/13/2023 10:23am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2023 10:34am
MxAddic wrote:

"purely"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purely

Trying to move the GP's again I see. LMAO!

Please explain to me how I "moved the goal posts" ?

I'm starting to think you don't actually understand what that means.

*I'll give you a hint, since the beginning of this thread I've been saying not allowing Stark to race  WAS political, I'm still saying that.  That is called "sticking your guns" in a lot of circles, quite the opposite of "moving the goal posts".  Sticking to your guns is something you have proven over and over and over again you aren't able to do as you constantly change your arguments to...well, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish other than prove you will go to any length necessary to prove....whatever it is your trying to prove.  Never forget....you and your homies are ending child slavery right?

 

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Silas444
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12/13/2023 10:27am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2023 10:31am
Beagle wrote:
From my armchair perspective it's nice to see the AMA (or any federation) engaging with all actors to try to get things right for everyone. There...

From my armchair perspective it's nice to see the AMA (or any federation) engaging with all actors to try to get things right for everyone.

There are experimentations around the world with electrics competing with ICE (France, UK, Finland, Australia at the amateur level and maybe pro as well), Stark is willing to restrict their bike performance to compete with ICE, they are also open to answer any safety issues (for FIM super enduro it was fire marshal, lanyard among others), or to compete without gaining any championship points or prizes. This should help to better understand if fair competition is possible or not and define a stable set of rules.

Now if we could avoid this FIM super enduro debacle i.e. authorization to compete then last minute change of rules without any justification that will be better for the sport's credibility. In my opinion more transparency would go a long way.

Finally I understand many fear that electrics would have an unfair advantage over ICE, so they would like a separate class, fair enough. Following this reasoning, my question is: what happens IF this fear ever becomes reality? If this electric class becomes the fastest class then what? How is separating classes going to prevent riders from switching to the fastest bikes?

Separate classes could be the answer, but I doubt it will be. Certainly within the next decade, there will be young riders coming up into prominence who will have become masters of the art of E-bike power regeneration. They'll have learned ways to conserve their bike's batteries while maintaining pace, and will also have learned to use their rear hand brake with great deftness as a means of recapturing energy. They'll figure how to make their E-bike last around Lommel at pro pace for an entire G.P. - because they'll see what we perceive as the bikes weakness as an opportunity to showcase their superior abilities. 

If perhaps you're now shaking your head in denial, let me remind you of something.

Once upon a time we all contentedly rode and raced two-strokes, and four-strokes were perceived the way some of you perceive the Varg now: as a mere "novelty." Then all-new, much more capable four-strokes came along, and despite the fact that we couldn't ride them the same way we rode our two-strokes, the switchover was made - and quickly. Why? Because it became obvious that riding one carried an advantage, even IF you had to remake your entire style in order to suit the four-stroke's strengths. Soon thereafter, carrying momentum around the outside lines of bermed corners while standing up became THEE talent to have, along with rarely or never needing to shift because of how well you'd mastered your clutch.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

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Magoofan
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12/13/2023 10:43am

Bottom line:    No sound (except clackedy-clack chains and Vrrrr  Vrrr).... no sport.    Gas bikes (and really all vehicles) under attack....no sport. 

It's been fun kids.

 

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RACING
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12/13/2023 10:46am
RACING wrote:
Fun fact/reality check: the racing was great and no one missed Blazusiak or the Stark one bit.    

Fun fact/reality check: the racing was great and no one missed Blazusiak or the Stark one bit.

 

 

LungButter wrote:
Nobody in Poland missed their hometown hero being able to race? Were you there and took a poll? Not denying the racing was awesome but to...

Nobody in Poland missed their hometown hero being able to race?

Were you there and took a poll?

Not denying the racing was awesome but to think the folks there didn't miss Taddy is either ignorant or has an agenda behind it...so what is it....you don't have much common sense or you are defending your agenda?

Blazu's done and has been for a while.

The hot polish rider right now is Olszowy, who finished fifth. 

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