Bike test real, if editor works for OEM?

BobbyM
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12/14/2009 9:28am
why don't some of you guys get a multi year contract and then rebid for it again when it expires? bidding seems like the fair way to do it..sealed of course. or is this mx photo world a day to day or season to season operation?

this sport is small with sides/teams to choose...reeks of nepotism in many cases.
oldx
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12/14/2009 9:52am
"this sport is small with sides/teams to choose...reeks of nepotism in many cases."

Well no shit Tonto.
englishman
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12/14/2009 9:53am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:27pm
I wanted to only highlight or 'quote' the bit where you were ANGRY about finding out the truth about reality TV. Seems you have been living...
I wanted to only highlight or 'quote' the bit where you were ANGRY about finding out the truth about reality TV.
Seems you have been living in fantasy land if you did not know this.

As for Jared being opposed to 'advertise directed journalism', he simply means what has been a root problem (if you are a reader who truly relies on mag bike tests, etc...) for product reviews in magazines for decades-where you advertise with a magazine, get a good product review.

Let me use bicycles for an example as not to offend anyone in moto. I know of a bike company, they are the #2 advertiser at a certain magazine, they consistently make one of the worst bicycles (rides like crap and many failures), but when said mag runs a test on the bike-it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It is not rocket science this whole deal, but I will GUESS that TWMX offered Kawi a free team shoot if Kawi committed to a certain amount of ad buys, and in this current climate I guess it is not a bad deal for both. Sucks for me because I probably would have been working on the shoot if one of the marquee moto photogs would have nailed the gig....but like I tell everyone 'its a new economy' lol
Let me use bicycles for an example as not to offend anyone in moto. I know of a bike company, they are the #2 advertiser at a certain magazine, they consistently make one of the worst bicycles (rides like crap and many failures), but when said mag runs a test on the bike-it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

A buddy of mine has been in the cycling business for years ( Mfg) and as long as they give the mags loads of free shit including the bike being "tested" and take them out to lavish dinners with booze flowing freely they can actually WRITE THE TESTS THEMSELVES !!!! Then the mag just proofs and prints.


In my biz I have people constantly advertising "We'll beat your lowest quoted price by 10 % " So, following that logic, you find two companies doing that and you end up getting whatever you need for nothing and a backpocket full of cash.


Not sure if this is relevant but - ho hum !!


DrSweden
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12/14/2009 10:15am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:27pm
Assihoppen wrote:
Hi guys. I thought I did post this, but I cannot see it. So if it was already posted, I like to apologize for this second...
Hi guys. I thought I did post this, but I cannot see it. So if it was already posted, I like to apologize for this second post.
Anyhooo, I wanted to hear from you what the common take of this here is:

We had to bid a 2010 MX/SX team photo shoot of one of the big 4 Manufacturers.
To do this professional, you have to prep the track the days before, get jumps and corners set up photo-friendly, own or rent a lot of the latest equipment. cameras, lights, reflectorsetc, hire 2-3 assistants, shoot all day to end up with approx. 1.500 perfect shots and spent 1-2 days in post to color correct and clean up the images. It takes the better part of a week and the expenses do end up easily more than a new 450 costs.
I Have done this since a decade and I knew someday, someone might come in cheaper or better or both.

Anyhow, the job got to a bidder who offered to do this cheaper.
Hard pill to swallow, but this is business and after I got over my hurt pride ( I thought) I figures to let it go and focus on the next thing. Until I found out that the bid was real cheap and the conditions got me going again.

The offer was to do the job for FREE!

Wondering how this could be, I asked and was told that Maeda offered to do this without charge, but all images used would need to have his/transworld credit attached.

I still do not know what to think about this?

I would have no problems if this would be offered by a competing freelance who is not proficient in math and business skills and it was an error of him, just trying to get the food into a door.

But this is supposed to be an independent magazine. Not Red Rider, Riders of Kawasaki or Team Green News. TWMXis to be an independent, editorial magazine doing stories, shoot outs and tests. What happened to the ethics in journalism? Working for one of the companies you are supposed to judge their products seems like a conflict of interest to me.
I used to jump to the shoot out test of every magazine (MX or not) to find out what is really the best, what is weak, what to watch out for etc. Taking it in as an unbiased, objective result or the grand jury of tester who do it every day.
How can an editor at a magazine that tests and rates competitive brands of product be working for one of those manufacturers? Is getting credit of the images the only thing they are getting? After all, however they do it, they will spent more than just time. I just got a totally new point of view.
Beside that, how will any of the other manufacturers feel, if this brand finishes ahead of them in the TWMX 2010 MX shootout? How will the management of TWMX answer to them, if that happens?
Do readers trust Maeda'ss ability to be fair in bike tests?

I work for 3 of 4 OEM and if I would have to do a shootout, there is no way I would be unbiased. Even if I tried. That 4th one would have a hard time with me.

I asked these questions to other magazines and they all shook their head, giving some strong answers. Understandable. They will not get neutral images from this. Good luck to the manufacturer in getting them using these pictures if they have to credit competing mags on it.

In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it.
If Maeda wants to do the freelance work, he should commit to it to 100%, become self employed and step away from the editor position at an independent magazine, opening this job for someone who is not tied in with a manufacturer. Makes you wonder how independent they have been in the past at all?

But hey, maybe this is still just my hurt pride, over a lost job, talking?

That is why I ask it here to see what you guys think about this.

Thanks for reading

Frank Hoppen
Maybe(?) TWMX will think some next time? I honestly think this whole deal is a working against them, but that's of course my opinion, and means ass I know.


I know real journalism isn't really present in this biz, but sometimes they should at least pretend/try...

The Shop

TOE
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12/14/2009 10:46am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:27pm
Bobby...its minute to minute.

Top guys like Frank, Simon and Kinney as well as Paul Buckley (when he was with us) have and do get season long contracts with clients - thats fairly normal nowadays ( I have had a few of my own ) thats not really the issue here or will prevent undercutting down the road.

What needs to happen is the economy needs to improve and the companies need to realize that there is a cost of doing business and that photography IMAGE ADS are VITAL to their success and that when they skimp on the visual impact of their company they are reducing their overall image. I will say that a majority of them do understand this very well.

Since my first day in this industry I have known there to be a "swag for service" mentality with too many companies.

I have had to say things like.... "Im sorry sir but I tried to feed my kids the photo credit out of the magazine and they just keep telling me cereal tastes better so ill be needing cash or check instead of a photo credit as payment (this way I can buy groceries you see)

On the other hand there are some damn fine companies who throw swag around and expect nothing back - they are just happy that you are running their gear and putting the word out there in your travels - which is the true point of swag, it shouldnt be used as barter for service.

I had the national forest service call me once for photos - the woman was the AD AGENCY for the forest service, she told me right off the bat that she didnt have a budget for photography and i was flabbergasted - I asked her again to confirm...you are an AD AGENCY for the national forest service? "yes I am" ....so since there is no budget your agency is doing the work pro bono for the forest service? "click"

some people (too many) just dont want to pay for photos, they dont think photography is a valued commodity and let me be the first to say that it is the photographer him/herself who is to blame for things getting this way. we have all cut our costs to get work, given up this or made that concession in order to keep working and make "some" money...even working for free to get a foot in the door ( this is a tool that so many new photographers use to break into the industry ) thats why you see such a turnover of photogs ... when they go broke and cant afford the travel or new equipment they quit and a whole new batch come in and take their place doing the same thing - there are companies who dont have a photo budget or bank on this fact and employ it to save costs. but the bottom line is that whoring ourselves out is gonna do exactly that - turn us into whores!

I got tired of the travel and the schedule (and to some extent the inner workings of this industry to be honest), thats why I settled down here in Vegas and got a regular job - mostly though... my kids & Danya deserved better and MX photos wasnt cutting it anymore - I dont blame anyone in the industry though, if I was better at what I did then I would probably still be here full time - my hat goes off to Frank and all the guys shooting hardcore still - it seems like a great job to those looking in but its really not what its cracked up to be ....grass is always greener on the other side as they say.

Speaking of regular jobs - the photo below is where i work now - Aria at the new CityCenter - it opens this wednesday at midnight and it is AMAZING inside and out! words & photos dont do it justice - last night Danya and I were one of the first to see a dress rehearsel of the Circe show "Viva Elvis" here at Aria ...a show celebrating the young elvis - in attendance - Priscilla and Lisa Marie Presley...pretty cool stuff!

When you guys come into town if ya dont stay here at Aria...make sure you visit, it will blow you away...its one of the largest buildings ever to earn a gold LEED rating, it has 4,004 rooms over 500 suites, it has radiant heat and cooled floors, smoke curtains at all the gaming tables - in room technology with touch screen remote that controls everything from lighting, temperature, television, music and services to a fully stocked mini bar and media hub for you techies. it cost 9 billion dollars and is spread out over 67 acres and there are 5 properties in all - Aria the crowning jewel and only one that has gaming - Vdara which is a non gaming hotel for those guests who want gaming close by but can escape back to amore serene setting - Crystals which is top shelf shopping (all the top designers etc) Veer towers which are a residential condo community right in the middle of it all and they lean at 5 degrees like the leaning tower of pisa - both towers have an infinity pool at the top overlooking the strip - Mandarin Oriental and The Harmon which wont open until late 2010. The Aria alone is worth coming for - trust me.
FreshTopEnd
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12/14/2009 11:06am Edited Date/Time 12/14/2009 11:06am
I guess I don't know what to think other than recalling what the people who make a living at shooting bikes reinforced when I started shooting again years ago; if you give your work away for a credit and nothing more, you are being used and you are undercutting not only yourself, but also the people who are trying to make a living.
jndmx
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12/14/2009 11:11am
I guess I don't know what to think other than recalling what the people who make a living at shooting bikes reinforced when I started shooting...
I guess I don't know what to think other than recalling what the people who make a living at shooting bikes reinforced when I started shooting again years ago; if you give your work away for a credit and nothing more, you are being used and you are undercutting not only yourself, but also the people who are trying to make a living.
You have a gift for summation.....once again well stated and on the nose.
TeamGreen
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12/14/2009 12:05pm
This was a "Team Shoot". This isn't anything new.

Wasn't Team Kawasaki just being smart, as was Swap, by making the most of an opportunity?

Look, how different is this than the Suzuki shoot over at Racer-X, last week?

The only difference may be that Simon (Cudby, shot the Suzuki stuff if I'm not mistaken...) may have been paid as a "Free-Lance" and Transworld shoots their own stuff.

There it is.

PERIOD.

No Black-Helicopters. No "Lone-Gun-man". No Tin-Foil hat.

The "TMZ" of Moto...Classic.
Chili
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Winnipeg, CA
12/14/2009 12:09pm
TeamGreen wrote:
This was a "Team Shoot". This isn't anything new. Wasn't Team Kawasaki just being smart, as was Swap, by making the most of an opportunity? Look...
This was a "Team Shoot". This isn't anything new.

Wasn't Team Kawasaki just being smart, as was Swap, by making the most of an opportunity?

Look, how different is this than the Suzuki shoot over at Racer-X, last week?

The only difference may be that Simon (Cudby, shot the Suzuki stuff if I'm not mistaken...) may have been paid as a "Free-Lance" and Transworld shoots their own stuff.

There it is.

PERIOD.

No Black-Helicopters. No "Lone-Gun-man". No Tin-Foil hat.

The "TMZ" of Moto...Classic.
You have absolutely no concept of the issue at hand in this thread.
FreshTopEnd
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12/14/2009 12:17pm Edited Date/Time 12/14/2009 12:18pm
I guess I don't know what to think other than recalling what the people who make a living at shooting bikes reinforced when I started shooting...
I guess I don't know what to think other than recalling what the people who make a living at shooting bikes reinforced when I started shooting again years ago; if you give your work away for a credit and nothing more, you are being used and you are undercutting not only yourself, but also the people who are trying to make a living.
jndmx wrote:
You have a gift for summation.....once again well stated and on the nose.
The complicating factor here is that Donn isn't a "photographer" per se in the classic sense of being a competitor of the established freelancers. He's a magazine editor and an employee of a publicly traded corporation. His first duty is to advance that brand. Whether it's a net benefit to the brand in the long run is another question, but I doubt anyone other than a hand full of people pay attention one way or another.
Outsider
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12/14/2009 12:27pm
TeamGreen wrote:
This was a "Team Shoot". This isn't anything new. Wasn't Team Kawasaki just being smart, as was Swap, by making the most of an opportunity? Look...
This was a "Team Shoot". This isn't anything new.

Wasn't Team Kawasaki just being smart, as was Swap, by making the most of an opportunity?

Look, how different is this than the Suzuki shoot over at Racer-X, last week?

The only difference may be that Simon (Cudby, shot the Suzuki stuff if I'm not mistaken...) may have been paid as a "Free-Lance" and Transworld shoots their own stuff.

There it is.

PERIOD.

No Black-Helicopters. No "Lone-Gun-man". No Tin-Foil hat.

The "TMZ" of Moto...Classic.
Chili wrote:
You have absolutely no concept of the issue at hand in this thread.
lmao
TeamGreen
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12/14/2009 12:32pm
TeamGreen wrote:
This was a "Team Shoot". This isn't anything new. Wasn't Team Kawasaki just being smart, as was Swap, by making the most of an opportunity? Look...
This was a "Team Shoot". This isn't anything new.

Wasn't Team Kawasaki just being smart, as was Swap, by making the most of an opportunity?

Look, how different is this than the Suzuki shoot over at Racer-X, last week?

The only difference may be that Simon (Cudby, shot the Suzuki stuff if I'm not mistaken...) may have been paid as a "Free-Lance" and Transworld shoots their own stuff.

There it is.

PERIOD.

No Black-Helicopters. No "Lone-Gun-man". No Tin-Foil hat.

The "TMZ" of Moto...Classic.
Chili wrote:
You have absolutely no concept of the issue at hand in this thread.
I don't?

Oh, I see...the whole issue of whether or not this affects the relationship between the OEM's and the Magazines is truly "not" at hand, right?

Or the "Biases" there-in.

Or whether or not this is just a misinterpretation of what actually went down.

It's obvious that folks don't even read Reponses by "The Accused" in here...so...let's try this again:

The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.

Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Donn's words as posted a few pages back.

So, where's the smoking gun?

Where's the real "Meat' to the implied accusation?

Btw, I've seen Donn 'shoot' on more than a few ocassions. Supercross races come to mind.

At the end of the day: It was a Budget Decision by Kawi. A wise one. Pay for images or not.

Gee...did Donn get a "Scoop" on something by being on the scene? Hmmmmmmmmmm...

Now I see why Davey has made the decison NOT to do 'Tests'...

ayearinmx
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12/14/2009 12:44pm
i don't know about you guys... but it sounds like we all need to go to one of the 63sq acres at the Aria to discuss it, in one of their air conditioned rooms which cost $9billion to carpet.... or something
TOE
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12/14/2009 12:52pm
ayearinmx wrote:
i don't know about you guys... but it sounds like we all need to go to one of the 63sq acres at the Aria to discuss...
i don't know about you guys... but it sounds like we all need to go to one of the 63sq acres at the Aria to discuss it, in one of their air conditioned rooms which cost $9billion to carpet.... or something
67 acres... it has a nice mixture of carpeting, marble and granite flooring.

but who's keeping track Smile
dirthead1
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Southern, CA, USA
12/14/2009 1:03pm
TOE wrote:
Bobby...its minute to minute. Top guys like Frank, Simon and Kinney as well as Paul Buckley (when he was with us) have and do get season...
Bobby...its minute to minute.

Top guys like Frank, Simon and Kinney as well as Paul Buckley (when he was with us) have and do get season long contracts with clients - thats fairly normal nowadays ( I have had a few of my own ) thats not really the issue here or will prevent undercutting down the road.

What needs to happen is the economy needs to improve and the companies need to realize that there is a cost of doing business and that photography IMAGE ADS are VITAL to their success and that when they skimp on the visual impact of their company they are reducing their overall image. I will say that a majority of them do understand this very well.

Since my first day in this industry I have known there to be a "swag for service" mentality with too many companies.

I have had to say things like.... "Im sorry sir but I tried to feed my kids the photo credit out of the magazine and they just keep telling me cereal tastes better so ill be needing cash or check instead of a photo credit as payment (this way I can buy groceries you see)

On the other hand there are some damn fine companies who throw swag around and expect nothing back - they are just happy that you are running their gear and putting the word out there in your travels - which is the true point of swag, it shouldnt be used as barter for service.

I had the national forest service call me once for photos - the woman was the AD AGENCY for the forest service, she told me right off the bat that she didnt have a budget for photography and i was flabbergasted - I asked her again to confirm...you are an AD AGENCY for the national forest service? "yes I am" ....so since there is no budget your agency is doing the work pro bono for the forest service? "click"

some people (too many) just dont want to pay for photos, they dont think photography is a valued commodity and let me be the first to say that it is the photographer him/herself who is to blame for things getting this way. we have all cut our costs to get work, given up this or made that concession in order to keep working and make "some" money...even working for free to get a foot in the door ( this is a tool that so many new photographers use to break into the industry ) thats why you see such a turnover of photogs ... when they go broke and cant afford the travel or new equipment they quit and a whole new batch come in and take their place doing the same thing - there are companies who dont have a photo budget or bank on this fact and employ it to save costs. but the bottom line is that whoring ourselves out is gonna do exactly that - turn us into whores!

I got tired of the travel and the schedule (and to some extent the inner workings of this industry to be honest), thats why I settled down here in Vegas and got a regular job - mostly though... my kids & Danya deserved better and MX photos wasnt cutting it anymore - I dont blame anyone in the industry though, if I was better at what I did then I would probably still be here full time - my hat goes off to Frank and all the guys shooting hardcore still - it seems like a great job to those looking in but its really not what its cracked up to be ....grass is always greener on the other side as they say.

Speaking of regular jobs - the photo below is where i work now - Aria at the new CityCenter - it opens this wednesday at midnight and it is AMAZING inside and out! words & photos dont do it justice - last night Danya and I were one of the first to see a dress rehearsel of the Circe show "Viva Elvis" here at Aria ...a show celebrating the young elvis - in attendance - Priscilla and Lisa Marie Presley...pretty cool stuff!

When you guys come into town if ya dont stay here at Aria...make sure you visit, it will blow you away...its one of the largest buildings ever to earn a gold LEED rating, it has 4,004 rooms over 500 suites, it has radiant heat and cooled floors, smoke curtains at all the gaming tables - in room technology with touch screen remote that controls everything from lighting, temperature, television, music and services to a fully stocked mini bar and media hub for you techies. it cost 9 billion dollars and is spread out over 67 acres and there are 5 properties in all - Aria the crowning jewel and only one that has gaming - Vdara which is a non gaming hotel for those guests who want gaming close by but can escape back to amore serene setting - Crystals which is top shelf shopping (all the top designers etc) Veer towers which are a residential condo community right in the middle of it all and they lean at 5 degrees like the leaning tower of pisa - both towers have an infinity pool at the top overlooking the strip - Mandarin Oriental and The Harmon which wont open until late 2010. The Aria alone is worth coming for - trust me.
And they paid you for this advertisment, right? Haha
TOE
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Las Vegas, NV, USA
12/14/2009 1:08pm
I agree with you TeamGreen - no smoking guns...just two entities trying to stay in the black and cut the fat.

I dont think anyone blames anyone for that. I certainly dont.

there are several subjects and tones in this thread and one of the questions brought up was ethics - There was a miscommunication apparently and he thought TWMX was doing it for free in order to get photo credits wherever you used the images- Donn said this wasnt the case so Frank posed the question if it was ethical for a magazine to engage in practices normally done by freelance photographers? and not editorial outlets.

I dont think thats an unfair question.
TOE
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Las Vegas, NV, USA
12/14/2009 1:11pm
Dirthead1

haha...no, not at all... I took that in myown time and you guys are actually the first ones ive shown it too - Im just sincerely proud to work there, I have medical and dental for the first time since 1997 ( when i started shooting moto seriously) and i honestly think you guys would enjoy going there. thats it ( no black helicopters here either )

Although TMZ will probly be there new years to cover Eva Longoria opening her new restaurant "Beso"
ayearinmx
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12/14/2009 1:29pm
it's Vegas... of course we'll enjoy going there.... Wink
dirthead1
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12/14/2009 1:32pm
TOE wrote:
Dirthead1 haha...no, not at all... I took that in myown time and you guys are actually the first ones ive shown it too - Im just...
Dirthead1

haha...no, not at all... I took that in myown time and you guys are actually the first ones ive shown it too - Im just sincerely proud to work there, I have medical and dental for the first time since 1997 ( when i started shooting moto seriously) and i honestly think you guys would enjoy going there. thats it ( no black helicopters here either )

Although TMZ will probly be there new years to cover Eva Longoria opening her new restaurant "Beso"
I hear you. I was contractor as a technical mercenary for a number of years. Any day I took off was an unpaid one. Medical coverage for the three of us around $1200 a month.

jbomx363
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2008
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Denham Springs, LA, USA
12/14/2009 1:39pm Edited Date/Time 12/14/2009 1:39pm
mxav8r wrote:
"Swap" seems to be a real piece of work. Mr. Hoppen, you are a incredible photographer and Swap couldn't hold your jock strap in that regard...
"Swap" seems to be a real piece of work. Mr. Hoppen, you are a incredible photographer and Swap couldn't hold your jock strap in that regard. TWMX has NO credibility when unbiased opinions are called for in a "test". It's painfully obvious, the staff of TWMX worry more about getting free shit then they do about actually providing unbiased editorials.


p.s. His magazine sucks too Smile
100% totally agree!!
TOE
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12/14/2009 1:41pm
I got extremely lucky during these past 12 years - not once did i need to see a Dr...and me turning 42 in Feb... this job came in the nick of time, Danya too...and especially the kids ( which they had insurance but what I have now is way better)

Ill be going for my first checkup soon since 97 - ill probly have 2 weeks to live once they start doing tests on me.
jbomx363
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Denham Springs, LA, USA
12/14/2009 1:47pm
swap wrote:
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it." The...
"In my view, TWMX should do this work for all manufacturers at equal conditions, speak FREE to be fair, or stay totally away from it."



The offer WAS made to EVERY team, not just Kawasaki. Kawasaki was the only major team that didn't already have their plans finalized. And the request for photo credit in other magazines is completely false, Frank. There was a misunderstanding about that.


Our job is to gather the best content possible, and to gain the best access possible, for our readers. Here is how our offer went: TransWorld Motocross would like the opportunity to shoot photos and video with your race team before the start of your season. You may use the photos however you wish, free of charge, as long as we are allowed to use them in our magazine and on our web site.


Don't see what this has to do with testing bikes...


Just trying to do my job well, guys.
Well.. with that said.. You're an ass for doing this for FREE. Way to bone all the other photographers that have the skill to produce professional images for a fair price.

No one can compete with FREE.

Did I say you were an ass already?

englishman
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12/14/2009 1:48pm
TOE wrote:
I got extremely lucky during these past 12 years - not once did i need to see a Dr...and me turning 42 in Feb... this job...
I got extremely lucky during these past 12 years - not once did i need to see a Dr...and me turning 42 in Feb... this job came in the nick of time, Danya too...and especially the kids ( which they had insurance but what I have now is way better)

Ill be going for my first checkup soon since 97 - ill probly have 2 weeks to live once they start doing tests on me.
Enjoy yourself when the Dr busts out the KY and says "Bend Over and welcome to your 40's"
dunn2500
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12/14/2009 1:48pm
you guys have got to be kidding me........they have to sell peoples product to make money for the magazine, that is the first priority ( it is a business
)....all tests are biased one way or another.......they all get free shit and compensation one way or another.............mxa suggest everyone run the same spring rates and clicker settings.....that is impossible..........over the years they all contradict themselves and to be honest i trust dirt bike mag over all of em......
GuyB
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12/14/2009 2:03pm
Research1 wrote:
BINGO!!! I have dealt with "SWAP" twice and both times came away with nothing nice to say about him! We have 3 former pro's we deal...
BINGO!!! I have dealt with "SWAP" twice and both times came away with nothing nice to say about him! We have 3 former pro's we deal with, one of which is a top team manager. One of them commented just the other day that the only reason they talk to him is "because I have too".

I personally know many of the TWMX employee's and can tell you now that not many (well none) have a nice word to say about

Free Swag Swap.

Donn's personal bike is a Kawasaki for the record.....
Damn.

I think this strayed way off the original topic, and is more of a personal attack than something that adds to the discussion.

If you're going to lay out stuff like this, maybe you should add your own name to it, rather than be an anonymous heckler.

During my time at TWMX, Donn was a tough boss, but his push always helped make the final product better.
TOE
Posts
22
Joined
10/10/2006
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
12/14/2009 2:33pm
englishman wrote:
Enjoy yourself when the Dr busts out the KY and says "Bend Over and welcome to your 40's"
I think im gonna hit the dentist first....

Thanks for the heads up.....Thanks a lot! lol
adamdf
Posts
2132
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
St. Michael, BB
12/14/2009 2:40pm
Cygnus wrote:
I do remember Maeda losing advertisement dollars after he gave that horrible helmet that broke in his hands a bad review. Why would he take advertising...
I do remember Maeda losing advertisement dollars after he gave that horrible helmet that broke in his hands a bad review.


Why would he take advertising dollars for a product that sucks?
Moto_Geek wrote:
He also mentioned in the issue with the story about Arai helmets, in his editiorial mentions he did this test with another expensive helmet but did...
He also mentioned in the issue with the story about Arai helmets, in his editiorial mentions he did this test with another expensive helmet but did not mention the name and had similiar results. And now helmet manufacturers talk alot about his test. Not sure how strong Donn is, but I think publishing such results was a good thing for the consumers and was proof to be unbiased.

The debate of these test been going on forever. But the reality is you as the consumer need to read it for for it's worth. Who buys a car based on roadtracks report. I wish mx companies had more new oem test ride. Because of everyones needs and different size and riding styles, it should come down to a test ride period, not the test in a magazine.

I read the test purely for additional information even if it's prusuaded true. What I do like about TWMX is they specify the test riders ability (amateur/pro/vet pro) and height, and specify the track conditions when testing.

As far as free swag and bikes to ride, they are right in the middle of it, why not ride the test bikes if they are given to them to evaluate for the year. This really helps them compare the new bikes to last year.

I don't pay to much attention to the people that work for OEM, but TWMX test do usually have 2 or more different test riders.

And finally as a subscriber from the beginning, I think their was one year that they where wrong about the best bike and I'm basing that on asking multple people about their bikes at the races. So that says alot to me about their credibility.
And finally as a subscriber from the beginning, I think their was one year that they where wrong about the best bike and I'm basing that on asking multple people about their bikes at the races. So that says alot to me about their credibility."

Sorry dude, you ruined your entire post with that last paragraph, you confirmed their results by asking riders at the races about their bikes? Give me a break! As someone who has ridden mx bikes for nearly 20 years now, and has owned all 5 of the popular mx brands, i can say all of them are great, shootouts are weird deals to begin with, no one can tell you what bike is best for you. What you can do though, is read all the magazine shootouts and try to decipher which details/results seem to be most consistent for each bike. Shootouts are also good ways of knowing if any particular bike has an inherent flaw that just cannot be fixed, but these days all experienced motocross riders will tell you to generally take them with a grain of salt.
lucero10x
Posts
1624
Joined
9/25/2009
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
12/14/2009 3:09pm
englishman wrote:
Enjoy yourself when the Dr busts out the KY and says "Bend Over and welcome to your 40's"
TOE wrote:
I think im gonna hit the dentist first....

Thanks for the heads up.....Thanks a lot! lol
Hey PM me for a good Dentist in Vegas. Sis in law on the north west side of vegas if you need one.
Jack Flash
Posts
567
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Gold Coast, AU
12/14/2009 3:36pm
I think what everyone wants to know is what TFS thinks of this!!
TOE
Posts
22
Joined
10/10/2006
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
12/14/2009 5:10pm
Jack Flash ...That guy jocked me from day one... look at that acronym carefully...

Tony Fuckin Scavo

hahaha ...sorry couldnt resist Wink

Cool on the dentist referal, as long as she is in my network of providers ill definitely take her - I belong to the culinary union so we have better insurance if we use the listed providers, tell me her name or practice she is with and ill look at my list ( im also on the NW side of town Smile

Thank you

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