80hp Stark Varg Electric Dirtbike on the Dyno

6/6/2023 6:54am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 7:07am
Titan1 wrote:
Given than Stark has only been able to manufacture and ship one production bike…I doubt the big 5 (or big 7) are even slightly concerned about...

Given than Stark has only been able to manufacture and ship one production bike…I doubt the big 5 (or big 7) are even slightly concerned about trying to compete with them at this point.   If they can sell and ship half their pre orders…I think the big manufacturers ears will perk up a bit.  But until then, I think the Big 5 aren’t even giving it a second thought (possibly to their own detriment, but who knows where they are with their own e development, and how fast they could bring one to market, if they wanted too).

The OEM's will be waiting for delivery of their Stark Vargs, they need something to reverse engineer and to bench mark.

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GrapeApe
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6/6/2023 6:59am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 6:59am

Pit was very clear on his plans for full sized e-bikes. Once the generation of kids that started on SX-E 5's are ready to move to big bikes, they will have one ready. That is probably 7-8 years.

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6/6/2023 7:38am
Well said. Exactly the reason ICE will get pushed back on the burner.    Wanna bet all the manufactures will release eModels within 2 years to...

Well said. Exactly the reason ICE will get pushed back on the burner. 
 

Wanna bet all the manufactures will release eModels within 2 years to compete with Varg?

Ktm will be the second to release even thou Pit saying they can’t. Smile  

Honda within 2 years. 

I doubt the current OEM's have anything comparable to the Stark waiting in the wings, more likely they won't have anything for 4-5 years and by...

I doubt the current OEM's have anything comparable to the Stark waiting in the wings, more likely they won't have anything for 4-5 years and by then the Varg's performance would have improved. If Stark can deliver the Varg in volume they may own the market by then.

Honda/Mugan developed their prototype electric motocross bike in 2018/19, it was rumored to have similar performance to the Alta Redshift MX, Honda's team was disbanded in 2020, the bike hasn't been developed any further. Honda will need to assemble a new team to develop a bike to compete with the Stark, it will take time.

The Stark is not currently eligible to race in any AMA amateur or Pro event, if you want to race a Stark Varg you'll need to race a non-AMA sanctioned event, or race in the UK where it's eligible to race in the open class. The OEM's will push back on any rule changes allowing the Stark to compete, until they have their own electric motocross bikes with comparable performance to the Varg.

I think the OEMs, when/if they choose to venture into the EV world will be able to close up pretty quick. An electric power train is just so much simpler than an ICE power plant. The hardest part is the batteries, and the cells are purchased so it’s mostly a thermal and packaging problem for the OEM, which is in their wheelhouse. 

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350ss
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6/6/2023 7:47am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 7:48am

the dyno numbers are really impressive.

would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less given how much torque they produce down low.  i don't see the point of being capable of 80hp when a stock 450 is already too much power as is.  i know you can detune to whatever you want but i'd honestly rather have a lighter bike, regardless of how well it handles aready.  handling, braking etc would just get that much better with less weight.

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Titan1
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6/6/2023 7:59am
GrapeApe wrote:
Pit was very clear on his plans for full sized e-bikes. Once the generation of kids that started on SX-E 5's are ready to move to...

Pit was very clear on his plans for full sized e-bikes. Once the generation of kids that started on SX-E 5's are ready to move to big bikes, they will have one ready. That is probably 7-8 years.

My oldest son started on a ee5 (after some time on a 50sx)…and is just about ready for an 85….so KTM needs to hurry it up!  I’m tired of all the mini bike maintenance.  
 

I love that ee5 (except the range)…and I’d love a 65 (and eventually 85) sized options for my boys…

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mog
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6/6/2023 8:00am
350ss wrote:
the dyno numbers are really impressive. would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less...

the dyno numbers are really impressive.

would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less given how much torque they produce down low.  i don't see the point of being capable of 80hp when a stock 450 is already too much power as is.  i know you can detune to whatever you want but i'd honestly rather have a lighter bike, regardless of how well it handles aready.  handling, braking etc would just get that much better with less weight.

If you only use 50hp in 80hp mode, it won't use any less battery juice to have it pegged at 50hp 

Maybe 40hp mode would save a bit of juice 

I'm saying a 50hp version won't be lighter imo 

 

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soggy
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6/6/2023 8:09am
burn1986 wrote:
So it’s fast and performs well. We already know that. That’s good. No need to keep over hammering that point. You sound like you’re really getting...

So it’s fast and performs well. We already know that. That’s good. No need to keep over hammering that point. You sound like you’re really getting worked up. 

Keep moving those goal posts. 

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350ss
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6/6/2023 8:11am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 8:26am
350ss wrote:
the dyno numbers are really impressive. would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less...

the dyno numbers are really impressive.

would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less given how much torque they produce down low.  i don't see the point of being capable of 80hp when a stock 450 is already too much power as is.  i know you can detune to whatever you want but i'd honestly rather have a lighter bike, regardless of how well it handles aready.  handling, braking etc would just get that much better with less weight.

mog wrote:
If you only use 50hp in 80hp mode, it won't use any less battery juice to have it pegged at 50hp  Maybe 40hp mode would save...

If you only use 50hp in 80hp mode, it won't use any less battery juice to have it pegged at 50hp 

Maybe 40hp mode would save a bit of juice 

I'm saying a 50hp version won't be lighter imo 

 

i'm not sure i follow.   

if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain, etc.  less power loss due to smaller gears, bearings, etc.

a 250f bottom end and transmission weighs less than a 450f version.  not saying it is anything like a 40hp version would weigh half of what a 80hp version would be...just would be interesting to know how things scale. 

i really hate the fact that bikes have to be closer to 300lbs than 200.  if we could make bikes lighter with less power they'd be more fun to ride.  i'd rather have to carry some momentum through a corner to make a jump than just be able to goose it from the inside.  would make racing alot more fun and probably safer.

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mog
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6/6/2023 8:49am
350ss wrote:
the dyno numbers are really impressive. would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less...

the dyno numbers are really impressive.

would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less given how much torque they produce down low.  i don't see the point of being capable of 80hp when a stock 450 is already too much power as is.  i know you can detune to whatever you want but i'd honestly rather have a lighter bike, regardless of how well it handles aready.  handling, braking etc would just get that much better with less weight.

mog wrote:
If you only use 50hp in 80hp mode, it won't use any less battery juice to have it pegged at 50hp  Maybe 40hp mode would save...

If you only use 50hp in 80hp mode, it won't use any less battery juice to have it pegged at 50hp 

Maybe 40hp mode would save a bit of juice 

I'm saying a 50hp version won't be lighter imo 

 

350ss wrote:
i'm not sure i follow.    if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain...

i'm not sure i follow.   

if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain, etc.  less power loss due to smaller gears, bearings, etc.

a 250f bottom end and transmission weighs less than a 450f version.  not saying it is anything like a 40hp version would weigh half of what a 80hp version would be...just would be interesting to know how things scale. 

i really hate the fact that bikes have to be closer to 300lbs than 200.  if we could make bikes lighter with less power they'd be more fun to ride.  i'd rather have to carry some momentum through a corner to make a jump than just be able to goose it from the inside.  would make racing alot more fun and probably safer.

Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp 

I get your point ,but a 50hp motor and inverter won't be smaller or lighter imo ,the battery is not really being used more in 80hp mode( no one can hold on to it) ,so the time the battery lasts won't be longer for 50hp 

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6/6/2023 8:56am

It wouldn't surprise me if Yamaha is the first Japanese brand to bring a full sized EMX bike out. They are one of the more open to new ,different things it seems. They have electric MTB motor and battery systems they have been building for a while already.  So they have experience and have a history of working with Bosch on projects . Bosch is another EMTB motor maker.  Who knows though. I think they can see that there is a demand for the bikes even with the  current limited battery  range and charging speeds.  Maybe they will wait and see how many pre orders convert to units shipped with the Varg. I wonder if any of those pre orders were  other manufacturer's buying one to see what they will be competing against?  

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burn1986
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6/6/2023 9:02am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 9:12am
I think the OEMs, when/if they choose to venture into the EV world will be able to close up pretty quick. An electric power train is...

I think the OEMs, when/if they choose to venture into the EV world will be able to close up pretty quick. An electric power train is just so much simpler than an ICE power plant. The hardest part is the batteries, and the cells are purchased so it’s mostly a thermal and packaging problem for the OEM, which is in their wheelhouse. 

True. Meanwhile you have the bikes like Surron and Talaria that are selling out as fast as they can make them, with new models coming out monthly. 
 

Talaria’s newest model is $2995 weighing 125lbs, while their larger model is $4500 weighing only 146lbs. Plus, these bikes are fully upgradable with 3+ years of hop up parts.

Stark has come out with a big MX sized bike, but the new generation is gobbling up the smaller bikes, not the big $14K ones.

 

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Goldmember
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6/6/2023 9:07am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 9:12am
350ss wrote:
the dyno numbers are really impressive. would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less...

the dyno numbers are really impressive.

would really be interested to see how light they could make one that produces 50hp or so.  maybe even less given how much torque they produce down low.  i don't see the point of being capable of 80hp when a stock 450 is already too much power as is.  i know you can detune to whatever you want but i'd honestly rather have a lighter bike, regardless of how well it handles aready.  handling, braking etc would just get that much better with less weight.

This is the trend in high performance BEV's.

Increase the voltage to 800 plus (Stark is advertised as 360V I think) and run peakier, smaller, high speed, low torque motors with small diameter rotor/armatures to keep the forces low.

This requires a deep primary reduction and probably a two speed gearbox for best results. Two speeds is Porsche's solution in the Taycan.

350ss
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6/6/2023 9:07am
mog wrote:
If you only use 50hp in 80hp mode, it won't use any less battery juice to have it pegged at 50hp  Maybe 40hp mode would save...

If you only use 50hp in 80hp mode, it won't use any less battery juice to have it pegged at 50hp 

Maybe 40hp mode would save a bit of juice 

I'm saying a 50hp version won't be lighter imo 

 

350ss wrote:
i'm not sure i follow.    if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain...

i'm not sure i follow.   

if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain, etc.  less power loss due to smaller gears, bearings, etc.

a 250f bottom end and transmission weighs less than a 450f version.  not saying it is anything like a 40hp version would weigh half of what a 80hp version would be...just would be interesting to know how things scale. 

i really hate the fact that bikes have to be closer to 300lbs than 200.  if we could make bikes lighter with less power they'd be more fun to ride.  i'd rather have to carry some momentum through a corner to make a jump than just be able to goose it from the inside.  would make racing alot more fun and probably safer.

mog wrote:
Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp  I get your...

Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp 

I get your point ,but a 50hp motor and inverter won't be smaller or lighter imo ,the battery is not really being used more in 80hp mode( no one can hold on to it) ,so the time the battery lasts won't be longer for 50hp 

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

1
6/6/2023 9:38am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 9:46am
350ss wrote:
i'm not sure i follow.    if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain...

i'm not sure i follow.   

if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain, etc.  less power loss due to smaller gears, bearings, etc.

a 250f bottom end and transmission weighs less than a 450f version.  not saying it is anything like a 40hp version would weigh half of what a 80hp version would be...just would be interesting to know how things scale. 

i really hate the fact that bikes have to be closer to 300lbs than 200.  if we could make bikes lighter with less power they'd be more fun to ride.  i'd rather have to carry some momentum through a corner to make a jump than just be able to goose it from the inside.  would make racing alot more fun and probably safer.

mog wrote:
Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp  I get your...

Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp 

I get your point ,but a 50hp motor and inverter won't be smaller or lighter imo ,the battery is not really being used more in 80hp mode( no one can hold on to it) ,so the time the battery lasts won't be longer for 50hp 

350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450.

The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%, it could save 2 lbs on a 260 lb motorcycle (and increase the cost). They would have to omit the motor altogether and sell a 0 hp model to make something similar to the 16 lb gap between a CRF450 and CRF250,  The scale just isn't there.

350ss
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6/6/2023 9:48am
mog wrote:
Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp  I get your...

Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp 

I get your point ,but a 50hp motor and inverter won't be smaller or lighter imo ,the battery is not really being used more in 80hp mode( no one can hold on to it) ,so the time the battery lasts won't be longer for 50hp 

350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450. The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%...

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450.

The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%, it could save 2 lbs on a 260 lb motorcycle (and increase the cost). They would have to omit the motor altogether and sell a 0 hp model to make something similar to the 16 lb gap between a CRF450 and CRF250,  The scale just isn't there.

so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight.

how much weight is saved / what is the weight difference between a 40hp version and an 80hp version?

why engineer something for 80hp when you can only use 50-60?  and most riders actually less than that?

i guess its the same reason why they made a tesla what it is first and then will make the peoples car later.

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soggy
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6/6/2023 9:56am

The video in itself was pretty cringey. Bryan kept cutting Chad off and was goading him into talking up the bike. 

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6/6/2023 9:56am
350ss wrote:
i'm not sure i follow.    if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain...

i'm not sure i follow.   

if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain, etc.  less power loss due to smaller gears, bearings, etc.

a 250f bottom end and transmission weighs less than a 450f version.  not saying it is anything like a 40hp version would weigh half of what a 80hp version would be...just would be interesting to know how things scale. 

i really hate the fact that bikes have to be closer to 300lbs than 200.  if we could make bikes lighter with less power they'd be more fun to ride.  i'd rather have to carry some momentum through a corner to make a jump than just be able to goose it from the inside.  would make racing alot more fun and probably safer.

mog wrote:
Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp  I get your...

Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp 

I get your point ,but a 50hp motor and inverter won't be smaller or lighter imo ,the battery is not really being used more in 80hp mode( no one can hold on to it) ,so the time the battery lasts won't be longer for 50hp 

350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

I think his point is the battery won’t last longer because you would be using the same amount of energy burning a Moto on either the 80 or 50 hp model because you won’t be twisting it very far on the 80hp version. Most of the power in either version is going into propulsion and the parasitic losses won’t be much different between the two. I think was his point. If things are sized smaller you may get some weight savings, I agree with you. 

early
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6/6/2023 9:59am
350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450. The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%...

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450.

The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%, it could save 2 lbs on a 260 lb motorcycle (and increase the cost). They would have to omit the motor altogether and sell a 0 hp model to make something similar to the 16 lb gap between a CRF450 and CRF250,  The scale just isn't there.

350ss wrote:
so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight. how much...

so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight.

how much weight is saved / what is the weight difference between a 40hp version and an 80hp version?

why engineer something for 80hp when you can only use 50-60?  and most riders actually less than that?

i guess its the same reason why they made a tesla what it is first and then will make the peoples car later.

Being that the bike regulates itself with thermal->power controls, the electrical components are likely engineered to a longer duty cycle on the 60hp setting vs 80hp but require similar enough hardware. The performance advantage to lightening the final drive may not be much and sacrificing strength there is not a good idea for a new manufacturer. The battery seems to be about the minimum size to get 30 minutes out of a motocross bike with close to full power, no other full size EMX can do that. To get lighter bikes you'll need lighter batteries or shorter races.

1
6/6/2023 9:59am
350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450. The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%...

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450.

The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%, it could save 2 lbs on a 260 lb motorcycle (and increase the cost). They would have to omit the motor altogether and sell a 0 hp model to make something similar to the 16 lb gap between a CRF450 and CRF250,  The scale just isn't there.

350ss wrote:
so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight. how much...

so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight.

how much weight is saved / what is the weight difference between a 40hp version and an 80hp version?

why engineer something for 80hp when you can only use 50-60?  and most riders actually less than that?

i guess its the same reason why they made a tesla what it is first and then will make the peoples car later.

Both on Teslas and on Starks, battery range, battery cost, and battery weight are the market features that determine all other parameters. Lightweight big power motors are the easy part.

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mog
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6/6/2023 10:21am
350ss wrote:
i'm not sure i follow.    if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain...

i'm not sure i follow.   

if peak power is designed for 50 hp vs 80 hp, everything could be smaller/lighter, battery, wires/electronics, electric motor, geartrain, etc.  less power loss due to smaller gears, bearings, etc.

a 250f bottom end and transmission weighs less than a 450f version.  not saying it is anything like a 40hp version would weigh half of what a 80hp version would be...just would be interesting to know how things scale. 

i really hate the fact that bikes have to be closer to 300lbs than 200.  if we could make bikes lighter with less power they'd be more fun to ride.  i'd rather have to carry some momentum through a corner to make a jump than just be able to goose it from the inside.  would make racing alot more fun and probably safer.

mog wrote:
Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp  I get your...

Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp 

I get your point ,but a 50hp motor and inverter won't be smaller or lighter imo ,the battery is not really being used more in 80hp mode( no one can hold on to it) ,so the time the battery lasts won't be longer for 50hp 

350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

As the others have pointed out , it simply doesn't work like that with ev ,the battery is by far the heaviest , the alta had 40 hp and lasted half as long and weighed the same , don't shoot the messenger 

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350ss
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6/6/2023 11:50am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2023 12:09pm
mog wrote:
Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp  I get your...

Sorry but I don't think it will work like that , it's like one line of code to go from 50hp to 80hp 

I get your point ,but a 50hp motor and inverter won't be smaller or lighter imo ,the battery is not really being used more in 80hp mode( no one can hold on to it) ,so the time the battery lasts won't be longer for 50hp 

350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

mog wrote:
As the others have pointed out , it simply doesn't work like that with ev ,the battery is by far the heaviest , the alta had...

As the others have pointed out , it simply doesn't work like that with ev ,the battery is by far the heaviest , the alta had 40 hp and lasted half as long and weighed the same , don't shoot the messenger 

why don't the varg and the ee5 use the same size motor and battery?

i would like to see how the math works out for a case half way between these two.

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350ss
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6/6/2023 12:06pm
It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450. The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%...

It is not like the gap between a 250 and 450.

The entire motor assembly is under 20 lbs. If they reduced it's size by 10%, it could save 2 lbs on a 260 lb motorcycle (and increase the cost). They would have to omit the motor altogether and sell a 0 hp model to make something similar to the 16 lb gap between a CRF450 and CRF250,  The scale just isn't there.

350ss wrote:
so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight. how much...

so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight.

how much weight is saved / what is the weight difference between a 40hp version and an 80hp version?

why engineer something for 80hp when you can only use 50-60?  and most riders actually less than that?

i guess its the same reason why they made a tesla what it is first and then will make the peoples car later.

Both on Teslas and on Starks, battery range, battery cost, and battery weight are the market features that determine all other parameters. Lightweight big power motors...

Both on Teslas and on Starks, battery range, battery cost, and battery weight are the market features that determine all other parameters. Lightweight big power motors are the easy part.

maybe that's the part that i'm not getting. is that the battery size requirement is based on the range required while operating at say 80% power output.  so in this case at about 60 hp.  so they set that parameter and then just engineer the rest of the components to be able to handle 100% (80hp) since its there anyways and the weight savings would only be maybe 5-10lbs if they kept things sized for the 60hp output.  fair enough.

mog
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6/6/2023 12:32pm
350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

mog wrote:
As the others have pointed out , it simply doesn't work like that with ev ,the battery is by far the heaviest , the alta had...

As the others have pointed out , it simply doesn't work like that with ev ,the battery is by far the heaviest , the alta had 40 hp and lasted half as long and weighed the same , don't shoot the messenger 

350ss wrote:
why don't the varg and the ee5 use the same size motor and battery? i would like to see how the math works out for a...

why don't the varg and the ee5 use the same size motor and battery?

i would like to see how the math works out for a case half way between these two.

KTM make the free ride e I believe 

Alta made a mxr 

I don't think either fit your requirements

The stark slimmed down would be hardly any lighter , all the major heavy parts needs to be just as strong for 40-80hp 

1
6/6/2023 12:32pm
350ss wrote:
so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight. how much...

so assuming that is correct what happens when you do that to each component?  with the battery being the main place to save weight.

how much weight is saved / what is the weight difference between a 40hp version and an 80hp version?

why engineer something for 80hp when you can only use 50-60?  and most riders actually less than that?

i guess its the same reason why they made a tesla what it is first and then will make the peoples car later.

Both on Teslas and on Starks, battery range, battery cost, and battery weight are the market features that determine all other parameters. Lightweight big power motors...

Both on Teslas and on Starks, battery range, battery cost, and battery weight are the market features that determine all other parameters. Lightweight big power motors are the easy part.

350ss wrote:
maybe that's the part that i'm not getting. is that the battery size requirement is based on the range required while operating at say 80% power...

maybe that's the part that i'm not getting. is that the battery size requirement is based on the range required while operating at say 80% power output.  so in this case at about 60 hp.  so they set that parameter and then just engineer the rest of the components to be able to handle 100% (80hp) since its there anyways and the weight savings would only be maybe 5-10lbs if they kept things sized for the 60hp output.  fair enough.

No, the battery is what they're building around. There is maybe a pound or two of weight to be saved for 60 hp model. The entire motor and typical market available 450-sized drivetrain would remain around the same size.

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mog
Posts
84
Joined
5/14/2023
Location
Midlands GB
6/6/2023 12:33pm
350ss wrote:

good greif...i guess we're in two different realms of physics here.  best of luck my friend Smile

mog wrote:
As the others have pointed out , it simply doesn't work like that with ev ,the battery is by far the heaviest , the alta had...

As the others have pointed out , it simply doesn't work like that with ev ,the battery is by far the heaviest , the alta had 40 hp and lasted half as long and weighed the same , don't shoot the messenger 

350ss wrote:
why don't the varg and the ee5 use the same size motor and battery? i would like to see how the math works out for a...

why don't the varg and the ee5 use the same size motor and battery?

i would like to see how the math works out for a case half way between these two.

Battery would hardly last a 20 minute Moto .....

1
endurox
Posts
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Location
Garden City, ID US
6/6/2023 1:17pm

Wonder if Dunlop has an e specific tire in the works?

6/6/2023 1:36pm
GrapeApe wrote:
Pit was very clear on his plans for full sized e-bikes. Once the generation of kids that started on SX-E 5's are ready to move to...

Pit was very clear on his plans for full sized e-bikes. Once the generation of kids that started on SX-E 5's are ready to move to big bikes, they will have one ready. That is probably 7-8 years.

Titan1 wrote:
My oldest son started on a ee5 (after some time on a 50sx)…and is just about ready for an 85….so KTM needs to hurry it up...

My oldest son started on a ee5 (after some time on a 50sx)…and is just about ready for an 85….so KTM needs to hurry it up!  I’m tired of all the mini bike maintenance.  
 

I love that ee5 (except the range)…and I’d love a 65 (and eventually 85) sized options for my boys…

there were whispers around a bbq at hangtown last weekend that these exact bikes you list exist from an austrian company in a prototype form. 

6/6/2023 6:31pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2023 11:07pm
350ss wrote:
maybe that's the part that i'm not getting. is that the battery size requirement is based on the range required while operating at say 80% power...

maybe that's the part that i'm not getting. is that the battery size requirement is based on the range required while operating at say 80% power output.  so in this case at about 60 hp.  so they set that parameter and then just engineer the rest of the components to be able to handle 100% (80hp) since its there anyways and the weight savings would only be maybe 5-10lbs if they kept things sized for the 60hp output.  fair enough.

If Stark designed the motor, drive train and inverter for lower power, they may save 2-4lbs, unlikely to save much more, they would then have different parts for different bikes, increasing manufacturing costs.

What Stark has done is brilliant, one full sized motocross bike with adjustable power output, dealers will not have to carry spares for multiple sized bikes.

alex69
Posts
396
Joined
8/7/2013
Location
NL
6/7/2023 4:13am
mog wrote:
No I am telling you that all the people you trust to test ice bikes said themselves that lap times were less against the 450 of...

No I am telling you that all the people you trust to test ice bikes said themselves that lap times were less against the 450 of THEIR CHOICE 

If you are not trusting of their opinions you had better not read a single article in future as they had pretty much every major outlet bar mxa ...

No one doubted them if they said an ice brand made them faster 

It's a simple fact a bike with no clutch , no gears , good mapping , very low centre of gravity , no vibration will turn faster lap times than an ice bike with it's inherent flaws which are many 

djr wrote:
So are you saying that they tested the stark against 450s on the same day, at the same track ? And compared lap times ? I...

So are you saying that they tested the stark against 450s on the same day, at the same track ?

And compared lap times ?

I must have missed that test , where can I find it , please ?

Yeah, the same media test day that you are referring to.  In fact they had an active pro MX racer from England who races an FC...

Yeah, the same media test day that you are referring to.  In fact they had an active pro MX racer from England who races an FC 450 there.  He turned 3 laps on a stock FC 450, then got on the Varg and was seconds a lap faster on it.

There was also an very experienced Dutch reporter who rode some GP in the past and pro Enduro and do all the testing for an Dutch dirt magazine.

There where enough Starks and from any big brand an 450 to compare.

mofomotojoe
Posts
279
Joined
11/22/2019
Location
Lodi, CA US
6/12/2023 5:38pm

I would love to see a race where we take a bunch of identical Vargs, all locked up on max power and have a few racers duke it out.

Oh and bring your big bore 650cc if you want. 

The rebirth of the REAL open class... Cool

1

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