Now that my 14 y/o son is riding, I'm getting back into it after a 4+ year hiatus. I currently ride a 2013 KX450F and have never ridden anything but a 450. I was in my 40s when I started riding and would hear people say that a 450 was too much power but I've NEVER, ever felt that. The power delivery of my 2013 is so smooth that I've never gotten "scared" by the power so I've never understood when people say it's too much power as we have all the control in right hand. Is my 2013 450 just really slow compared to today's 450s like the YZ? I've now ridden 7 times since my hiatus and feel like I'm riding as fast and smooth as I ever have, and among the top few % of riders at the local tracks. I'm not saying I'm fast but just shocked at how quickly it comes back (at least for a handful of laps, lol).
Since I'm now back hooked on riding, I'm considering a new bike (though I love my KX), partially because I'd like to turn my 2013 KX into a snowbike for winters in Idaho. I"ve never thought, "I wish I had less power" as I feel the 450F is so easy to ride and makes it easy to jump anything out of the corner vs struggling to get over something and casing it which is more exhausting to me. Given that my bike is 10 years old, I have wondered about how much lighter the newer bikes are and how that translates to how many laps I can push hard before getting tired. I've heard the saying that a 350 is the perfect Vet bike because it's as light as a 250, but with the power of a 450. However, I've spent countless hours lately reading 350 vs 450 threads, here and on thumpertalk and it sounds like that's not really true with almost as many people who say the lugability of the 450 makes it is easier to ride, compared to the lower inertia, but needing to really wind out the 350. Lots of stories of people who said the 450 was way too much power for them who said the 350 was perfect but also quite a few people who dropped to a 350 from a 450, only to regret it and go back to a 450. It almost sounds like people who were scared of the 450 or didn't have good throttle control prefer the 350, but people who've always been comfortable on the 450, felt that the gain in handling didn't outweigh the loss in power. It also sounds like people who grew up on 2 strokes or wringing out a 250F loved the 350 because they were used to utilizing the upper RPMs of the 350 but for those like me (never rode a 2 stroke or anything less than a 450F) whose style is to lug it around, preferred the 450. Some even said they got more tired on the 350 because they had to ride so much harder to go fast and clear the bigger jumps. So what's the truth and how much easier is it to ride a 350 vs 450?
So I'm really torn on what to do. I would love for my bike to lose 15-20 lbs and wonder how much that would help me in the corners and ability to push hard all 20 minutes but it sounds like the 350 only saves 1lb vs the Euro 450s. I've watched enough youtube comparisons to see the evidence that most people cut their lap times when riding the 350 vs equivalent 450 but I wonder if that would be the same for someone like me that would have to totally relearn how to ride a bike in the upper RPM range to clear everything (especially out of tight corners). For those who've done that, how long did it take you? Isn't it true though that higher RPMS tend to upset the suspension and handling more than someone who rides smooth in lower RPMs like a Roczen? The other part of the equation that makes it tough is that I'm really not drawn to any of the Euro bikes and hear constant criticism about their suspension. If Yamaha or Kawi made a 350, I think I'd be way more comfortable trying one. I went all in on having Racetech do the works on my KX and it is so dialed that I hate knowing I'd have to spend another $2k to get a 350 with WP setup for me. If I did go 350, I'd probably go GasGas since it's lighter and I have a lead on a really cheap new '23.
***If you are someone who loved 450s but then went to a 350 and love it even more, please chime in. If you went from a 450 to a 350 but didn't love it and went back to a 450, please chime in. But if you never really got along with 450s and think 350s are perfect, please say that in your post because that makes a huge difference if you are one of those who think a 450 is "way too much power" because I just can't relate to that. Same if you weigh less than 190lbs...please share that in your post as well since that changes things.*** Thanks!
Overthink much ?
Buy whatever you like and it will work just fine for you.
I’ll chip in since last September I went from a 2012 KX450F to a like-new 2018 Husqvarna FX350 (12 hours), I am 36 and float between 170-195 lbs depending on how focused I am on working out/eating well at any given time. I’ve had bikes/been riding on and off since I was about 10…capable, but certainly wouldn’t classify myself as good. I will preface this by saying I am a plebeian that hardly dumps money into aftermarket add-ons and pretty much have the “run what you got mentality.”
- There hasn’t been a single moment I have felt down on power versus the 450, especially on Map 2 (the more aggressive map). The bike hits hard and pulls to the moon. The few times I have topped it out in long cross-country straights I’ve wondered how the thing can manage to keep going. Very impressed with the endings. I luv a solid amount, especially in slower, more technical single-track/trail stuff and for the most part decent clutch control keeps the power right there without issue, although I do find myself falling victim to the low-rpm stall I have read others also have issues with.
- Suspension-wise I can’t really comment, I’ve never had aftermarket work done on any of bikes and can’t find any huge fault in the 350 suspension. Initially the front wheel did feel like it pushed some with the WP forks, but after riding the bike more I have become quite comfortable and aside from stiffening up the forks a little don’t have any issues that make me feel like I need to drop thousands of dollars on upgrades.
- I forget the exact weight difference between the bikes, but the 350 certainly feels lighter, slimmer, and more nimble. Maybe it’s just me, but the ride height feels taller making it easier to maneuver through things. I ride a lot of tighter single track and being able feel like I can sling it around a little easier gives me a lot of extra confidence.
Overall, I am of the opinion that all current generation bikes are more than capable for most folks, so I think a lot falls to personal preference. If you’re happy on the KX, ride on and enjoy! It sounds like we may ride considerably different terrain, and a big reason for my switch was different gearing, a little more maneuverable bike, and e-start for the trails, so what works very well for me may not be for you. Either way, enjoy the ride!
Always! But the good thing is after over analyzing things, I almost never end up with buyer's remorse so it's worth taking a little time to do my homework.
Thanks for sharing! Yeah, if I did more trails, the decision would be much easier. It's the jumps right out of the corners where I love having that extra torque. However, I wonder how much time I'm leaving on the table in tight rutted corners where a more nimble bike would help more. That's kind of my dilemna right now.
The Shop
Free shipping: VITALMX
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Are you looking to replace the bike you have for something lighter? Or just looking to up grade?
the 350 is great, try to find someone at local track that has one you could try!
but also the new kx 450 feels way lighter than the older models, the black coupler smooths out the power, and as a big plus they are offering a 2 k, rebates on new ones, and they have both the Mx model and a cross country model to choose from
Yep, try a couple out.
450 for sure Bro. They are better now than in 2013.
450
TreeFiddy
I really love my 2013 and I've only thought about upgrading if I'm going into something noticeably better. Though I took over 4 years off of riding, I've still been a huge fan of racing so I still follow the industry and listen to tons of podcasts so I've heard quite a bit through the years how much some people love the 350 (I know Gypsy Tales pushes the 350 hard, among others). Since I got back into riding over the past 4 weeks, I've started to get the itch to consider upgrading. A 350 would be a radical departure from what I currently have but spending more time researching, it doesn't sound like any of the current 350 would be an upgrade. Very few people speak highly of the suspension, the 2022 engines lack bottom-end power while the 2023 KTM/Husky sound like the engine is a big upgrade but too rigid of a chassis. It sounds like a 2023 engine in a 2022 chassis (or 2023 Gas Gas) could be the right combo if it wasn't for the suspension.
The more I've researched, the more I'm back to a 450 but then the question becomes, how much lighter handling is a 2023 KX450 or YZ450 vs my 2013. I love the engine in my 2013 and my almost A-kit suspension is really dialed so it really comes down to chassis improvements and weight loss (I believe the 2023 is about 7 lbs lighter than my 2013). So there isn't a huge incentive to upgrade but then I started looking online and like used cars, there are really some great deals on new bikes right with a lot of options under $7k. I'm sure a lot of dealers loaded up during the Covid rush and now inventory isn't moving (same happened with MTBs). I'm one to sell when prices are high and buy when they are low so I sent out a bunch of emails to stores selling 2023 KX450s for $6500ish to find out what their OTD prices are.
No chance I’m reading that book. The 350 is a great bike. I still say the 450 is the better bike to be lazy on. Just find a 350 at the track and try one out.
Sounds like you’ve already got yourself talked into a new 450. The current generation kawis are great. I went from the kawi to a 23 ktm 350, also a great bike but I wouldn’t get one if you’re looking lug it around. You’d miss the torque of a 450.
The OP says he's a "Lugger".
So , he seems perfectly suited to a 450. They only become a handful if you hammer them. And, as a Lugger, provided you take care of the basics = Filter(s), Oil, and general maintenance, they are damned near indestructible for we normal human beings.
But yes, 350s are fantastic things. When I've ridden them, I love them. But, to really use their potential - which is to easily mix it up with 450s - you need to give them the berries. I am much too old and damaged to do that for long, so, lugging my old Teddy Bear of a bike suits me down to the ground. But, my bike, is even more of a lugger than 450 4ts.
i was a 450 guy, turn 50 this july and have been as heavy as 250lbs and thought I needed the “extra torque.” I switched to a 21 KTM 350 18 months ago and it is the best bike i have ever owned … hands down and the most fun to ride! You will be faster, more consistent, and able to use 3rd no problem. If you can’t you are not carrying enough momentum through the corners and no amount of torque is going to cover up your lack of technique. There are tons of threads on here about the 350 and multiple comparison videos on YT where they ride 250,350, and 450 all together and everyone is always faster and more consistent on the 350… isn’t that interesting 🤔 The worst thing you can do is bring your 450 to the track and compare to the 350… you have to commit to the 350 I did and will never own another 450!
Funny, I've had a 450 and the weight of it and the inertia feel on most UK tracks (which tend to be really tight and twisty) was a killer. The power was lovely, the feel especially late in motos used to leave me feeling completely wiped. I tried a 350 and didn't especially like it so went to a 250 smoker for the last couple years. Now I'm pushing 45 and looking for something will last me the next four years without needing to do much and honestly, I'm going to have a go on a 250f. The newer ones have plenty of torque and should still be able to lug, the difference being it won't try and rip my arms off when I get tired (which the smoker does a bit even in 'mellow' mode).
Thanks everyone for the comments as they really do help me process this decision. How long did it take you to switch and get comfortable from the KX450 to the 350? And did you ride 2 strokes or smaller 4 strokes at some point to where it was an easy transition to wringing out the 350? I was laying in bed last night going over my local tracks in my mind and there are a couple of jumps that take just the right corner, or a seat bounce to avoid casing the jump but majority of the track would be fine on even a 250F. If a 2023 450 isn't heaps better than my 2013 450, there is a part of me that wonders if a bigger change, like going to a 350 would be a fun challenge when riding the same tracks. I really need to find one to try but it seems like everyone around me is on a 250 or 450. The 2023 KTM 350 motor does sound like a nice increase in low-end grunt but reviews seem mixed on the much stiffer new chassis.
I find lugging anything around to be incredibly boring. On the right bike (450s or bigger 2 strokes) it is the way to turn fast and consistent laps. But it's still boring. The 350 is not really a lugger so you do have to actually ride it. (note: there are reports the 23+ 350s have better low end power).
That said, I still feel like the 350 is the Goldilocks of engine sizes. Not too hot, not too cold, but just right. It has enough power that you can move along really well without revving the shit out of it, but I wouldn't classify it as lugging for sure. You can try and ride it like a 250 and will probably find it's hard to ride that way for long. The suspension and handling are better when not revving to the moon, IMO. Also, the stock suspension is pretty good that becomes very good after a revalve.
I have ~80 hours on my '19 Husqvarna FC350. I like it better than all 450s I've had. It's also a better race bike than my '17 Husqvarna TC250 (TC is more fun, but harder to ride as consistent).
This novel is intended for the OP:
I have some back round in the bikes your are talking about, so I will share my experiences. Im a vet A/B rider weighing around 275 at 6' tall in my late 30's. Ive always been on the heavier side, but im not some fat ass with blubber hanging off me lolol. Ive had many 250f and 450's over the years, but 450 was always my bike of choice as I wasnt a rev'er.
I purchased a new 2013 kx450 IN 2013 and rode it for 5 years. I had it dialed in between triple clamps, linkage and suspension revalve. The engine had great power in stock form. By far one of my most favorite bikes over the years. I put 130hrs in it before I sold it. Ive never done that with any other of my bikes.
In 19, i bought a 2019 kx450 due to all the promising changes the bike got. It felt lighter and slimmer than my 13, but the engine didnt hit as hard. Suspension was an upgrade from the air forks. I rode that bike for 3 years and sold it, because I was wanting a little more grunt and kyb suspension.... i bought a near new 21 yz450 and im much happier with the yz. I had found myself numerous times, missing my 13 kx for various reasons of my own, but the current generation of kx is head and shoulders a better chassis. The 13 kx450 had great "lugability" and I didnt feel the 19 was as good in this department. My weight could also play into this as well, but when I switched to the yz450, it had the same engine feel/lugability as my 13 kx.
About 5 years ago, i decided I wanted to get a second bike, so things wouldnt get stale or boring. I wanted to have a smaller cc bike, but still keep my 450 as thats always been my bike of choice. I picked up a nice 15 ktm 250sx, as I was buying into all the 2 stroke hype and I never owned one before. It was a great bike. I had to completely change my lugging riding style and learn how to rev. It took me all season to get comfortable on it. Then a few years later, i sold it. The suspension was the crappy 4cs and even had a fc revalve, but I decided to move on from it and picked up a new 21 yz250f. I had the itch for a 250f again and im more of a 4 stroke guy. It was an Awesome bike and had to be ridden similar to the 250sx. Last spring I slowly started getting the 350 bug since I enjoyed the yz250f so much. Last fall, I sold the yz250f and picked a near new 22 350sxf. I ditched the air forks for 6500's, got a vortex ecu and did a few other common mods. Im still dialing in this bike between gearing, suspension and controls. I find that I can either lug or rev this bike, but to ride it properly you do need to rev the bike. It has plenty of power to do everything, but just doesnt have the 450 grunt. The solution to that is keeping your corner speed up and be more aggresive than you would on the 450. You will have to change your riding style. As far as getting less fatigue riding the 350, i feel its about the same as the 450, because im pushing harder on the 350. I even felt this way on the 250sx and yz250f.
Ive put almost 10hrs on the 350 and given it more riding time than my yz450, but I cant say just yet that I like it more than my 450. I still have all summer and fall to change my mind lol. I honestly like both bikes very much and just want some variety.
Pit Row
That first sentence right there was kind of what I was lying in bed last night thinking about. I wouldn't be selling my 2013 KX450 regardless (though it may spend winters in Idaho as a snowbike) so it might be fun bouncing back and forth between it and the smaller bike and learn a newer style of riding. The KTM forks are really the negative that makes the decision more difficult.
You know what I’m just gonna say it…..Yz 250! 💨
I really appreciate you sharing that, especially since you had the same year KX! I do love my 2013 and other than better handling and a lighter feel in corners, I'm not sure a newer one would be a massive upgrade since I only have about 60 hrs on it. At minimum, I have more time to think this thru and hopefully come a cross a 350 at the track that I can try out. Plus I have a feeling by the end of Summer, bike sales may have slowed to where there are even better deals.
I'm praying that the Japanese are working on their own 350s as I'd buy a YZ350 today if it was available. This thread wouldn't have even existed if that bike was available.
I'm mid pack b class speed and float around 180 to 200 Lb depending on the time of year. I got a 2019 Husky 125 as a play bike after riding my kawi 450 for a few years. That made me realize I like wringing the bikes neck a lot more than trying to control the power of a 450, so I sold the kawi and picked up a 2023 ktm 350. I love the bike, I'm faster on it and have way more fun riding it than I did my 450, plus I can do longer motos on it. The only issue I have with it is how much stiffer it is than my 125 but I'm hoping that will get better with a few more hours on it. You can still "lug" it around in 3rd but it doesn't have near the torque of a 450.
Definitely ride one first if you can but I think you would be happy with a 350 if you take the time to get used to it. I've seen a lot of guys on here say that if you commit 10 hours to the 350 then try riding a 450 again you'll wonder how you ever rode a 450 in the first place.
450
Kawasaki has a New 450 coming out pretty damn soon.
The forks really shouldn't be a concern. AER are good stock. Revalved AER are great. I have a set of the latest cone valves and a set of the bladder forks (WP CC), and they are also great when revalved. But, damping wise the AER are almost just as good as any other fork out there. Air forks do require one more thing to check before riding, but they are otherwise not a concern any longer. Spring forks still have the edge in ground feel into corners, but that's about it.
Are you worried about air forks in general? Or something specific?
That's good to hear as 95% of the talk about the WP forks was negative with people spending thousands trying different things. It seems like some people liked how Enzo revalved them.
No, I actually love my PSF1 forks on my 2013 KX. I've heard bad things about the PSF2 but Trey Canard loved the PSF1 so much that he ran those on his factory CRF450 even after they discontinued the PSF1. It only takes me a minute to check the pressure (like checking the tires). I also like that when snowbiking, I can "change the spring" with just the pump if I'm going to be jumping bigger stuff on firmer snow. That reminds me, people in the snowbiking forums also didn't have good things to say about the WP airforks so I think that's another reason I have kind of written them off.
450.
I was a guy that flat out didn’t want an air fork bike prior to getting a 23 350sxf. Is it as good as kyb’s on a Yamaha? No but I’d take the stock 23 forks over over stock Suzuki or Honda forks any day of the week.
The 350 forks handle big hits well and though aren’t horrible on small chop could he a little better. I talked to plenty of guys that told me a revalve from a good company will be much better.
Take what some say with a grain of salt about the bike. Remember, we are weekend warriors not top factory pros. After 10 hours the chassis on the 23 350 is much better than when new.
I had many bikes through the years including the older gen 350’s and will say the new 23 has a much better motor for a heavier guy. Remember, heavier guys don’t feel the same power as lighter guys. Just like a 250 two stroke for example. Put 160 lb guy on one and the bike has good bottom end torque. Put a guy at 200+ on the same bike it’s like they are riding all together different bikes.
For reference, I ride 50 expert/A and weight 200lbs. IMO the bike has all the power I need.
Question is, do you want to ride a bike? Get a 350. Do you want to bike to ride you? Get a 450.
Just my 2 cents, good luck with your decision! 👍🏻
Once your rolling around a track, how much HP do you think your actually using ? Prob well within a 250f.
Put simply just learn where the power is, a 250f is plenty for most circumstances, just find the rpm & Rev it a bit higher.
450 allow you to enter corners slower, carry less momentum.
Post a reply to: 350 or 450 for 200lb 50 y/o B rider who lugs his bike and has only ever ridden a 450?