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I really hope that whatever the issue is that they are able to get it handled. Maybe at first the idea was to build a concept bike and then sell the tech and the demand to a big established company. Like KTM, and that was why it looked so much like a Gsgas when they first showed it way way back. But then plans changed and now they are scrambling to build the bikes themselves. I think its better to be late , but deliver the promised product , than be ontime with with something that makes all of your other promises into BS. That is the way I do things. If it either has to be late, or not what the customer asked for and on time or early , its going to be late , but over deliver on the rest.
I did notice in the interview on Gypsy Tales when the founder was talking about his past accomplishments he picked stats that were very specific , that sounded impressive , but might also be less impressive when you tracked down the real numbers. He has had some big success with past things he has done. So I do not think that he would go into a project like this and be intentionally misleading consumers on such a massive scale. I hope that whatever the issue is , that it gets worked out and some bikes start showing up.
Maybe one of the moto journalists could do a follow up interview with the ceo?
Oh yeah.
NEVER EVER eat left over food from a photo shoot.
Or drink beer.
Or anything, really.
Well, look at a burger on an ad and what you actually get at your fast food...
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Sounds like it's been a real long time since you've used a cordless power tool. I'm drilling about 400 5/16" holes 2" deep in hard maple on one 5ah battery. At -10°c.
Great. So the Vargs should be there any minute?
So stay away from the hot motor oil crisco sundaes?
I have decided to share a bit more info and photos to add some context to my statement that those photos are not a year old. Keep in mind that the mechanical components (except for brakes, forks, etc), battery, motor, and all electronics are custom. The manufacture of these components is critical and the photos of the bike assembly line are only important if your eye is sharp enough to distinguish production from prototype components.
For the "media event" we have six hand built prototype bikes. They were very labor intensive to build and required very skilled people to put them together. In our case the engineers who designed them were the people who put them together. Now you can place prototype machines on an assembly line and photograph that. At that time it was also necessary to start work on the production line (for battery assembly, bike assembly, etc). So there was a point in time where there is something that resembles a production line and also prototype bikes. Some people decided to take some photos; I am engineering so I stay out of those decisions.
I won't go back and look at all the old and new photos and see what can be seen to differentiate them. What I will do is show a few differences so that people who are genuinely interested can see.
First, the battery -- here is the old one:
You can see the orange power connector is horizontal and facing backward. The BMS is below the orange connector. The power cables are black -- must be orange in production.
Now the new battery:
Power cables are now orange. The power connector and BMS have been moved to the front edge; this lowers the height of the battery by about 25mm giving more ground clearance. There are many internal improvements to the battery. It is now much easier and _safer_ to assemble; it no longer needs to be built by engineers.
Here is an inverter from a prototype bike:
The copper buswork is not yet plated. At the upper left side you the see the 3 AC busbars have studs and nuts where the motor phases are connected. This connection process was kind of a pain in the ass and it also required and access plate and gasket be added to the inverter cover. You can see this black cover plate held by 4 screws above and to the left of the motor cover (left of the lower coolant port):
Here is the new inverter. The AC buswork now passes down under the motor cover so this cover and gasket is no longer required. The buswork is now plated and insulated as it should be. Many other small details have been addressed:
Here is how the AC buswork meets the motor:
So now you have a few photos from engineering
BTW, for you guys that I hate electric bikes. I get it -- you hate electric bikes; I'm not trying to convince you of anything. For you other guys that have either ordered on or are just interested; my intent was to give you some more in depth information.
Thank you very much for posting these and pointing out some of the changes! I think it is amazingly cool what You guys are doing! It's cool to see more of behind the scenes of building a new motocross bike from the ground up! Having the founder of the company do interviews and so much more info out there than other establish brands. I'm sure that all the big brands have some prototypes that will never be seen .Its cool to be able to see so much more of what's going into building a new brand and motorcycle .
I don't understand the hate of Electric motocross bikes. People were saying similar things about 4 strokes when they first came around. But it just seems so much more intense and crazy with the hate on electric. I bet that if any of the people that are hating on them ,rode one an were honest about how they felt about riding one. That they would have a great time on one. Just like how a 2 stroke has that great feeling when you are in the right gear,rpm, etc and its screaming and sounding so crisp, the low end power of a 4 stroke enabling a jump right out of a corner that would be much harder, the power delivery that is possible with Electric is just addictive. Amazing, the definition of acceleration.
It seems like most of the real hate is fear. Fear of being forced to ride electric, or having the choice taken away. I can understand the dislike of electric , if you are looking at it in that way. But I think it is crazy to think that gas powered engines will ever be totally gone. Unless electric is just so much better that nobody buys gas powered vehicles anymore. Otherwise I doubt they ever go way completely.
I see electric as another options that could make a lot of cool things possible. Please keep sharing as much as you can on the process of production, building the factory up, the bikes, everything! I think there are a lot of people who would be very interested in your input. Of course there will be people who dislike and talk crap about just about anything. This is the internet .
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" BTW, for you guys that I hate electric bikes. I get it -- you hate electric bikes .. " - fs
Most of the negativity is directed at what a competent, perhaps superior electric MX bike could represent ; a competitive advantage that can't be ignored.
There's also definite visceral thrill when 40 bikes thunder off the line at an outdoor national, the thought of that going away saddens many & it's a valid point from a purely entertainment standpoint.
There are also those that wont mind a bit leaving the earplugs at home, although they'll still be that PA system operating at 120db playing '80's hair metal to suffer through.
Similar handwringing occurred (still occurs ?) when four strokes evolved to the point where they were just faster around a track than the 125 & 250 two strokes of the day.
They'll be room for both platforms in the minds & garages of the moto-public, just as there is for two & four stroke gas bikes currently.
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I can fill you in on the hate from my standpoint. I don’t believe we will have a choice of anything but battery powered and I believe it is coming sooner than anyone can imagine. I believe that it won’t take all that much longer that you won’t be able to ride a gas powered bike anywhere once you can’t buy a new gas bike. Paris France plans a ban on all combustion vehicles by 2030. That’s ALL gas-powered vehicles, not just the sale of new vehicles. That’s 7 years away. The writing is on the wall. If you want to watch SX or outdoor MX with a full gate of e-bikes then you’re in luck. Many of us can’t stand the fact that it just will not be close to the same sport we love. It isn’t 4-stroke vs 2-stroke. Even the majority of the guys all excited by battery powered think they’ll have all kinds of choices. You won’t have any choice other than what brand of e-bike you’ll buy. So few think this and I really can’t understand why when you look around and see what’s happening. These fantasy visions of riding your e-bike in your yard? Or new tracks opening? You have visions of tracks installing enough fast-charging stations for all the racers? What planet have you guys been living on? Every purchase of an e/bike is a nail in the coffin for gas bikes. You’ll be voting with your purchase power. The government will thank you so much for your support. But you won’t need to clean filters or change oil or use a clutch, so it will all be worth it. Someday you’ll be looking at each other while charging your bikes and chat about the good times you had back when you could fill up your tank and go ride some more. There are a LOT of people that will find another hobby to spend their money on once this all comes to pass.
Excellent points. ...but there is one more thing to add. Once the noise "problem" of motorcycles is gone, the "save the something-something lizard, bush, flower) environmental push will ratchet up. That battle has been waged since the 70's and we are losing the war.
As for hating e-bikes: I don't hate technology...my career is technology. What I hate is technology being used to push a BS agenda. E-bikes are just a zit on the huge ass of the electric lie people are being fed.
Many thanks for the insight! Really interesting to get a look at the components. I’ve noticed small changes like the separated sprocket cover on the newer pictures, but not changes that big. Did you guys also further develop the frame geometry or was everybody happy with that?
Not the case, since my wife had her implants removed, I sleep with a cordless impact in one hand drill in the other!!!
I got a nice Briggs Stratton 420cc 6800w non-inverted generator that I can't wait to start up in the pits while you and your family are enjoying lunch. Get a nice whiff of freshly burnt 87 octane and hear that 420cc lawnmower engine banging at peak decibels.
Ebike fanatics think your leaving gas behind..... yeah right!
Wait, what?!!! They're going to ban ICE engines in Paris? That can't be true, it just can't. I mean, I am 99% finished with my two-strokes-only track that goes up, over, and back around the Dragon's Back I built over the Champs Elysees before going straight up and down the Eiffel Tower I just covered with fresh loam and then over a step-up I built over the Louvre Pyramid and then finishing on a killer whoop section I've built on the steps of Pompidou. I mean, the dirt is already in place, it's all done. I was just finishing up some grooming with my Bobcat while my trusty 125 warms up. I needed to cut the whoops down. DeCoster came by and he told me to do it, so I had no choice, of course, but it's cool. I just cannot believe my two-stroke dream is now gonna die.
So bummed about this. Soooooooooooooooo bummed.
This is a bad joke right?
We are into the third year of the Stark and basic,101 home workshop engineering tasks that should have been completed months prior to any sales push still have not been finalised.
A well funded amateur, say someone running a decent machining business, could get a bike like the hypothetical Stark Varg up and running in 12 months, including making a custom shaped battery.
Proprietary low tech electrical and electronic components similar to Stark's already well out of date design are readily available and the running gear, cosmetics, suspension and related design are at your local motorcycle dealer.
No hate for electric bikes but I'm going to say it now. If you put a deposit down with this company, get it back before it's too late. This is definitely a Trevor Milton/Nikola type scenario.
Pit Row
This is exactly right. These guys are just stringing everyone along.
Unless there is a new, vastly more power dense battery storage technology developed very soon, and along with it compact, powerful, economic, permanent magnet motors that can operate reliably at far higher temperatures than the existing low temp designs, then the idea of a world's best E-MX bike is a dream.
Electrical engineering experts say that to run a pro speed 30 minute plus 2 moto with a sight lap and red flag restart on a very hot day- or a very muddy track at 60 hp requires about 20kWh for the range and that is assuming there are motors duty rated for those conditions.
A Stark type bike with a 20kWh batter would be a lot bigger and likely weigh over 300lbs and cost 20K.
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Run far, run fast
Could you elaborate a little further? Maybe show us the math behind your conclusion? What motor and battery discharge efficiencies did you take into account?
The frame geometry is pretty much unchanged. With the old design when you remove the battery the bike needs to be supported because one bolt goes through the frame and battery and center casting which holds the motor and inverter. That is no longer the case so when you remove the battery the bike does not need to be supported from below.
You clearly have no clue how real companies need to work when making out products to public. You can build china level bikes in couple months in your own garage but they are not gonna pass any regulations or approvals. Cant even imagine how much bureaucracy they have faced just alone in Spain to get anything approved in production line or factory. Anything you hope to do here in Spain takes 4 times it would take in normal EU country like Sweden. They posted 16 January that certification process has started and first (final version) batteries are now out for homologation. Even they had all parts laying ready they can get bikes ready before every regulation has passed.
I'm not an electrical engineering expert,
I'm just quoting what has been said about 60 hp, heating, range and a very high duty cycle.
I would think the regulatory stuff, and their designs, would have been well understood and sorted before they started advertising bikes for imminent delivery.
So you have no idea about the engineering behind it, but lecture fs, who’s an engineer and works on the Varg, about how a well funded amateur with machine shop could come up with a bike like that in 12 month!
This is a bad joke right?
Interesting!
A question about the motor: did you guys pull through with the carbon fiber sleeved rotor? I recently read about the performance benefits (the Tesla S Plaid has them, I think), but it sounded like a big manufacturing challenge to pull off and get consistent.
It’s simple math. If the new epowered bikes are more fun and people want them more than the racing will be designed around them.
I went from MTB to eMTB (class 1, no throttle). So many people complained and bitched. What I realized is the fun is riding it. Climbing sucks on a MTB, not on a eMTB.
Downhill is where the real fun is.
Change is coming it’s just part of evolution.
Keeping buying “old tech” if that’s what makes you happy. The industry is only going to sell new tech because it’s more profitable.
It is a carbon fiber sleeve because it needs to be. When you take into account the RPM, temperature, and available thickness for the sleeve a glass fiber sleeve would likely not do the job. A carbon sleeve is really no big deal. Alta has that too. Most marketing departments like to brag about exotic and expensive materials, etc. The things that I am proud of about the bike are certain technical details that aren't really for placing in marketing materials for the masses.
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