SX all time top 10

2/23/2023 11:05pm

OK, who's the most consistent?   It's Villopoto?   Such a short period, so many wins and titles before he went fishing.

2/24/2023 12:34am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 12:36am

James never beat RC for a championship.

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Fun Fact: James only beat RC 3 times outdoors. The most successful guy to beat RC outdoors was Windham who did so 7 times. 

studworx wrote:
They don’t call RC the GOAT for no reason… Windham had many many more starts vs RC outdoors than James did.    08 James vs RC...

They don’t call RC the GOAT for no reason…

Windham had many many more starts vs RC outdoors than James did. 
 

08 James vs RC would have been a fun battle I believe. Maybe throw in 2015 Tomac and we have a party. 

I'll see your post and raise you a 2016 Roczen. Don't know who I'd bet on after that. 

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CPR
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2/24/2023 4:29am
Came here to say this EXACT thing lol.  Insane to have Stanton, Hannah, and Dungey over JS7.  I would also have Tomac higher. You can't just...

Came here to say this EXACT thing lol. 

Insane to have Stanton, Hannah, and Dungey over JS7. 

I would also have Tomac higher. You can't just go off wins/titles. You need to consider strength of competition and their overall impact on the sport IMO. JS7 literally changed the way people ride dirt bikes.

-MAVERICK- wrote:
The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors. The only things that matter are stats. Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah...

The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors.

The only things that matter are stats.

Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah all have more titles than James. Hence the reason why they are listed ahead of him on the list the OP posted. 

walleyeguy wrote:
Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World"...

Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World" Championship took more "consistency" to win sooooooooooo.......Stewart has 3 "CHAMPIONSHIPS" IN SUPERCROSS.

If you wanna play that game, Reed has 5 SX championships, two more than Stew. How’s that sit with you?

walleyeguy
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2/24/2023 4:49am
Mit12 wrote:
My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places...

My list and how I came up with the placement. I am using AMA and FIM championship rules to make this list. Therefore titles won places the riders on the list, wins only count toward tie a tie beaker in the case of riders tied in championships. I am sure that there will be fans of certain riders that won’t like the list.

1. McGrath 7 titles 72 wins.

2. Carmichael 5 titles 48 wins.

3. Villopoto 4 titles 41 wins

4. Dungey 4 titles 34 wins.

5. Hannah 3 titles 27 wins.

6. Stanton 3 titles 17 wins.

7. Stewart 2 titles 50 wins.

8. Tomac 2 titles 47 wins.

9. Reed 2 titles 44 wins.

10. Johnson 2 titles 28 wins

Webb 2 titles 20 wins. I placed him here because he is the only active rider with a chance to move into the top 10 this year. If he wins the championship this year he will jump up to 6th all time.

 

bv164 wrote:

I think re-sorting your list with “wins” taking priority over “titles” makes more sense.  Just my opinion.

-MAVERICK- wrote:
What's the end goal of competing in a championship series? Gathering the most wins or winning the championship?  The manufacturers spend millions to go racing for...

What's the end goal of competing in a championship series?

Gathering the most wins or winning the championship? 

The manufacturers spend millions to go racing for titles. What's displayed on the semi trailer doors? 

Wins are nice, but championships are what matter the most in all sports.

McGrath doesn't get introduced as the 72 time supercross winner. He gets introduced as the 7 time champ having won 72 main events. 

Actually McGrath  is more known for his 72 wins in my opinion.  That's all that's ever talked about.

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The Shop

walleyeguy
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2/24/2023 4:51am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors. The only things that matter are stats. Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah...

The record books don't care about the strength of the competitors.

The only things that matter are stats.

Fact is that RD, RV, Stanton, and Hannah all have more titles than James. Hence the reason why they are listed ahead of him on the list the OP posted. 

walleyeguy wrote:
Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World"...

Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World" Championship took more "consistency" to win sooooooooooo.......Stewart has 3 "CHAMPIONSHIPS" IN SUPERCROSS.

CPR wrote:

If you wanna play that game, Reed has 5 SX championships, two more than Stew. How’s that sit with you?

Reed is higher on the "All timer" SX list than Stewart.  How's that sit with you?

2/24/2023 5:01am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 5:03am
Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races...

Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races in that span. RC also raced 8 full years, 5 titles(06 is suspect, if all the races counted, JS7 is champ that year) rookie year 16th (compare that to RD) next year 5th, and in 04 he did not race. Then we look at RV, 6 seasons, 4 titles, first 2 years got broken off to get 6th and 4th, (as mentioned above in 2011 he has Dungeys chain to thank for that title) then after the titles he quit and didn’t race RD at full strength.

Both RV and RC seem to get credit for quitting early, and their non title years being such a disaster that they seem to not factor in. Where Dungey was either the best, or was right in the fight to be the best every single race he entered from the first one to the last one. 

if I’ve learned anything about this place it’s that I will get plenty of downvotes, but I will NOT get a coherent argument saying that I’m wrong about this.

tomlopez wrote:
Dungey definitely didn't have a better SX career than RC or RV.  Carmichael and Dungey both raced the same amount of years in premier class SX...

Dungey definitely didn't have a better SX career than RC or RV. 

Carmichael and Dungey both raced the same amount of years in premier class SX (2007 was a retirement tour and he didn't race a full schedule, doesn't count). In those years, Carmichael won 1 more championship and won 14 more races. Not sure how in any way, shape or form Dungey's record is better. The only thing I guess is the podium streak, but when he's bested by Carmichael in titles and wins the podium streak doesn't hold any weight.

Villopoto raced 2 less 450SX seasons than Dungey and won just as many titles, as well as 7 more races. Additionally, Villopoto won those titles directly against Dungey, so it's not like you can argue that Villopoto had an easier path or anything. If anything, Villopoto had the harder path. All 4 of his titles were earned with Dungey, Stewart, and Reed in the 450 class. Only one of Dungey's titles were against that field (and Stew and Reed were hurt all year), and the other three came against Roczen and young, ridiculously inconsistent Tomac. Not saying he didn't earn them, but I'm just making the point that there's no way Dungey's titles mean more than Villopoto's.

Dungey did have a better SX career than both RV and RC if we’re going by career points. Everything else is subjective. Each title means the same no matter how dominating, although like I said RCs in 06 and somewhat RVs in 11 are highly questionable. So when they all have roughly the same amount of titles (I don’t really give a shit about race wins, title is the goal) and you look at the years where they DIDN’T become champion, it’s not even close.
 

Dungey’s 3 more than competitive 3rds and 1 2nd blows RCs DNS, 16th, and 5th out of the water. As it does with RVs 6th, 4th and quitting early. And Dunge won as a rookie.

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CPR
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2/24/2023 6:40am
walleyeguy wrote:
Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World"...

Actually Stewart has 3 championships.  He won the World championship while Carmichael took the AMA (in 06 I believe).  Say what you want but the "World" Championship took more "consistency" to win sooooooooooo.......Stewart has 3 "CHAMPIONSHIPS" IN SUPERCROSS.

CPR wrote:

If you wanna play that game, Reed has 5 SX championships, two more than Stew. How’s that sit with you?

walleyeguy wrote:

Reed is higher on the "All timer" SX list than Stewart.  How's that sit with you?

Hey I’m Aussie so that’s fine by me 😂 Maybe not by most here though.

But in all seriousness, there’s no right answer, you can twist it to suit most arguments. The only thing not in doubt is the King at no.1.

RaceFace232
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2/24/2023 7:11am
Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races...

Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races in that span. RC also raced 8 full years, 5 titles(06 is suspect, if all the races counted, JS7 is champ that year) rookie year 16th (compare that to RD) next year 5th, and in 04 he did not race. Then we look at RV, 6 seasons, 4 titles, first 2 years got broken off to get 6th and 4th, (as mentioned above in 2011 he has Dungeys chain to thank for that title) then after the titles he quit and didn’t race RD at full strength.

Both RV and RC seem to get credit for quitting early, and their non title years being such a disaster that they seem to not factor in. Where Dungey was either the best, or was right in the fight to be the best every single race he entered from the first one to the last one. 

if I’ve learned anything about this place it’s that I will get plenty of downvotes, but I will NOT get a coherent argument saying that I’m wrong about this.

Lol

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Chatmore
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2/24/2023 7:27am

The OP’s list is on point👌👍

Championships are what matters. 

TDeath21
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2/24/2023 8:06am

James never beat RC for a championship.

studworx wrote:
2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember...

2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember, be retired in his prime). 
 

He won 5 of the 7 races RC competed in that year. RC winning the other 2. James was ahead in points when RC bowed out of the series. 

Yeah RC wasn’t very good in 07. Lots of guys beat him in the championship that year. Many nights, it was like he wasn’t even there he was so bad!

studworx
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2/24/2023 8:08am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 8:09am

James never beat RC for a championship.

studworx wrote:
2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember...

2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember, be retired in his prime). 
 

He won 5 of the 7 races RC competed in that year. RC winning the other 2. James was ahead in points when RC bowed out of the series. 

TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah RC wasn’t very good in 07. Lots of guys beat him in the championship that year. Many nights, it was like he wasn’t even there...

Yeah RC wasn’t very good in 07. Lots of guys beat him in the championship that year. Many nights, it was like he wasn’t even there he was so bad!

You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points.

People count seasons JS7 dropped out of after 1 or 2 rounds saying this guy beat him for the championship. Why can't we count 07? RC was getting handled in SX

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tomlopez
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2/24/2023 8:09am
Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races...

Dungey had a better SX career than Ricky and RV. Dunge raced 8 seasons, 4 titles, a 2nd, and 3 3rd overalls. Only missed 2-3 races in that span. RC also raced 8 full years, 5 titles(06 is suspect, if all the races counted, JS7 is champ that year) rookie year 16th (compare that to RD) next year 5th, and in 04 he did not race. Then we look at RV, 6 seasons, 4 titles, first 2 years got broken off to get 6th and 4th, (as mentioned above in 2011 he has Dungeys chain to thank for that title) then after the titles he quit and didn’t race RD at full strength.

Both RV and RC seem to get credit for quitting early, and their non title years being such a disaster that they seem to not factor in. Where Dungey was either the best, or was right in the fight to be the best every single race he entered from the first one to the last one. 

if I’ve learned anything about this place it’s that I will get plenty of downvotes, but I will NOT get a coherent argument saying that I’m wrong about this.

tomlopez wrote:
Dungey definitely didn't have a better SX career than RC or RV.  Carmichael and Dungey both raced the same amount of years in premier class SX...

Dungey definitely didn't have a better SX career than RC or RV. 

Carmichael and Dungey both raced the same amount of years in premier class SX (2007 was a retirement tour and he didn't race a full schedule, doesn't count). In those years, Carmichael won 1 more championship and won 14 more races. Not sure how in any way, shape or form Dungey's record is better. The only thing I guess is the podium streak, but when he's bested by Carmichael in titles and wins the podium streak doesn't hold any weight.

Villopoto raced 2 less 450SX seasons than Dungey and won just as many titles, as well as 7 more races. Additionally, Villopoto won those titles directly against Dungey, so it's not like you can argue that Villopoto had an easier path or anything. If anything, Villopoto had the harder path. All 4 of his titles were earned with Dungey, Stewart, and Reed in the 450 class. Only one of Dungey's titles were against that field (and Stew and Reed were hurt all year), and the other three came against Roczen and young, ridiculously inconsistent Tomac. Not saying he didn't earn them, but I'm just making the point that there's no way Dungey's titles mean more than Villopoto's.

Dungey did have a better SX career than both RV and RC if we’re going by career points. Everything else is subjective. Each title means the...

Dungey did have a better SX career than both RV and RC if we’re going by career points. Everything else is subjective. Each title means the same no matter how dominating, although like I said RCs in 06 and somewhat RVs in 11 are highly questionable. So when they all have roughly the same amount of titles (I don’t really give a shit about race wins, title is the goal) and you look at the years where they DIDN’T become champion, it’s not even close.
 

Dungey’s 3 more than competitive 3rds and 1 2nd blows RCs DNS, 16th, and 5th out of the water. As it does with RVs 6th, 4th and quitting early. And Dunge won as a rookie.

But you're halfway discounting RC's '06 title and RV's '11 title, even though you said they all mean the same and that they're the ultimate goal (which I agree with). So should we discount Dungey's 2010 title because Villopoto crashed out halfway through? His 2017 title because Roczen crashed out Round 3? Every championship comes with a few breaks going in the champ's favor, doesn;t mean you can logically take titles away in a debate of who's better all time. 

I know why you're discounting Carmichael's '06 title (the whole fuel thing), but how is Villopoto's 2011 title questioned? He beat out Reed, Stewart, and Dungey, each of which were present and competitive for basically the whole season. He even failed to make a main at Jacksonville that season because of a first-turn pile up, imagine how many more points he would've won by if he made that main event.

Bottom line is, the goal is championships. Villopoto beat Dungey for the championship every year they faced each other aside from 2010. I really don't care about who came 3rd in points more often, especially when Dungey's 3rds and 2nds in points were literally behind Villopoto because he was getting beaten by him almost every single week. And yes, that is how it went. Villopoto had Dungey's number 90% of the time they raced.

studworx
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2/24/2023 8:21am
Joshracing wrote:

OK, who's the most consistent?   It's Villopoto?   Such a short period, so many wins and titles before he went fishing.

RV is grossly underrated 

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TDeath21
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2/24/2023 8:41am
studworx wrote:
You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points. People count seasons JS7...

You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points.

People count seasons JS7 dropped out of after 1 or 2 rounds saying this guy beat him for the championship. Why can't we count 07? RC was getting handled in SX

There’s a huge difference between leaving a series because you crashed out and committing to only a partial season before the series even starts.

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Mit12
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2/24/2023 9:22am
walleyeguy wrote:

Actually McGrath  is more known for his 72 wins in my opinion.  That's all that's ever talked about.

Yes right after the 7 time SX Champion part.

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2/24/2023 9:43am
tomlopez wrote:
Dungey definitely didn't have a better SX career than RC or RV.  Carmichael and Dungey both raced the same amount of years in premier class SX...

Dungey definitely didn't have a better SX career than RC or RV. 

Carmichael and Dungey both raced the same amount of years in premier class SX (2007 was a retirement tour and he didn't race a full schedule, doesn't count). In those years, Carmichael won 1 more championship and won 14 more races. Not sure how in any way, shape or form Dungey's record is better. The only thing I guess is the podium streak, but when he's bested by Carmichael in titles and wins the podium streak doesn't hold any weight.

Villopoto raced 2 less 450SX seasons than Dungey and won just as many titles, as well as 7 more races. Additionally, Villopoto won those titles directly against Dungey, so it's not like you can argue that Villopoto had an easier path or anything. If anything, Villopoto had the harder path. All 4 of his titles were earned with Dungey, Stewart, and Reed in the 450 class. Only one of Dungey's titles were against that field (and Stew and Reed were hurt all year), and the other three came against Roczen and young, ridiculously inconsistent Tomac. Not saying he didn't earn them, but I'm just making the point that there's no way Dungey's titles mean more than Villopoto's.

Dungey did have a better SX career than both RV and RC if we’re going by career points. Everything else is subjective. Each title means the...

Dungey did have a better SX career than both RV and RC if we’re going by career points. Everything else is subjective. Each title means the same no matter how dominating, although like I said RCs in 06 and somewhat RVs in 11 are highly questionable. So when they all have roughly the same amount of titles (I don’t really give a shit about race wins, title is the goal) and you look at the years where they DIDN’T become champion, it’s not even close.
 

Dungey’s 3 more than competitive 3rds and 1 2nd blows RCs DNS, 16th, and 5th out of the water. As it does with RVs 6th, 4th and quitting early. And Dunge won as a rookie.

tomlopez wrote:
But you're halfway discounting RC's '06 title and RV's '11 title, even though you said they all mean the same and that they're the ultimate goal...

But you're halfway discounting RC's '06 title and RV's '11 title, even though you said they all mean the same and that they're the ultimate goal (which I agree with). So should we discount Dungey's 2010 title because Villopoto crashed out halfway through? His 2017 title because Roczen crashed out Round 3? Every championship comes with a few breaks going in the champ's favor, doesn;t mean you can logically take titles away in a debate of who's better all time. 

I know why you're discounting Carmichael's '06 title (the whole fuel thing), but how is Villopoto's 2011 title questioned? He beat out Reed, Stewart, and Dungey, each of which were present and competitive for basically the whole season. He even failed to make a main at Jacksonville that season because of a first-turn pile up, imagine how many more points he would've won by if he made that main event.

Bottom line is, the goal is championships. Villopoto beat Dungey for the championship every year they faced each other aside from 2010. I really don't care about who came 3rd in points more often, especially when Dungey's 3rds and 2nds in points were literally behind Villopoto because he was getting beaten by him almost every single week. And yes, that is how it went. Villopoto had Dungey's number 90% of the time they raced.

Listen, we’re talking about the best to ever do it so we’re knit picking greatness. I only discount RV in 11 slightly because I think Dungey was better that year, he had a mechanical DNF and only lost the title by 10 points which is different than RV in 10 because his broken leg was a rider error. I totally discount Ricky in 06 because he lined up, raced, and got smoked by Stewart in the world rounds which should have counted. 
 

So my reasoning for Dunge being 2nd best is based on them all being equal on titles, with him having astronomically better non title years than the two gingers. This theory also puts him 2nd on the all time outdoor 450 list as well.

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BigRedMachine
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2/24/2023 12:34pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 12:38pm
studworx wrote:
2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember...

2007 SX. He dominated RC. Who, while yes was in his final year, still came back to win outdoors. He was still in top form (remember, be retired in his prime). 
 

He won 5 of the 7 races RC competed in that year. RC winning the other 2. James was ahead in points when RC bowed out of the series. 

TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah RC wasn’t very good in 07. Lots of guys beat him in the championship that year. Many nights, it was like he wasn’t even there...

Yeah RC wasn’t very good in 07. Lots of guys beat him in the championship that year. Many nights, it was like he wasn’t even there he was so bad!

studworx wrote:
You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points. People count seasons JS7...

You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points.

People count seasons JS7 dropped out of after 1 or 2 rounds saying this guy beat him for the championship. Why can't we count 07? RC was getting handled in SX

Had Ricky Carmichael been cheating and using a performance enhancing drug like Adderall the same way James Stewart was, he would have beat him by even a higher point and Championship margin then the record books show.  In 2007 when RC was ready to retire and start raising a family, he raced a part time series and still managed to beat James Stewart outdoors in 9 of the 12 motos they raced together.  James Stewart shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Ricky Carmichael. 

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zookrider62!
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2/24/2023 1:04pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah RC wasn’t very good in 07. Lots of guys beat him in the championship that year. Many nights, it was like he wasn’t even there...

Yeah RC wasn’t very good in 07. Lots of guys beat him in the championship that year. Many nights, it was like he wasn’t even there he was so bad!

studworx wrote:
You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points. People count seasons JS7...

You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points.

People count seasons JS7 dropped out of after 1 or 2 rounds saying this guy beat him for the championship. Why can't we count 07? RC was getting handled in SX

Had Ricky Carmichael been cheating and using a performance enhancing drug like Adderall the same way James Stewart was, he would have beat him by even...

Had Ricky Carmichael been cheating and using a performance enhancing drug like Adderall the same way James Stewart was, he would have beat him by even a higher point and Championship margin then the record books show.  In 2007 when RC was ready to retire and start raising a family, he raced a part time series and still managed to beat James Stewart outdoors in 9 of the 12 motos they raced together.  James Stewart shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Ricky Carmichael. 

Shouldnt Cade Clason be a multi time champ since he was also using this super secret performance enhancing drug?

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studworx
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2/24/2023 1:42pm
studworx wrote:
You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points. People count seasons JS7...

You read the whole comment? In the 7 races he did, JS7 won 5. RC 2. RC left series 2nd in points.

People count seasons JS7 dropped out of after 1 or 2 rounds saying this guy beat him for the championship. Why can't we count 07? RC was getting handled in SX

Had Ricky Carmichael been cheating and using a performance enhancing drug like Adderall the same way James Stewart was, he would have beat him by even...

Had Ricky Carmichael been cheating and using a performance enhancing drug like Adderall the same way James Stewart was, he would have beat him by even a higher point and Championship margin then the record books show.  In 2007 when RC was ready to retire and start raising a family, he raced a part time series and still managed to beat James Stewart outdoors in 9 of the 12 motos they raced together.  James Stewart shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Ricky Carmichael. 

Shouldnt Cade Clason be a multi time champ since he was also using this super secret performance enhancing drug?

Craig too… lmao

He didn’t win a championship until AFTER his suspension. Crazy how that works

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Mit12
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2/24/2023 2:51pm
Joshracing wrote:

OK, who's the most consistent?   It's Villopoto?   Such a short period, so many wins and titles before he went fishing.

MC, 7 titles 72 wins that’s the definition of consistently.

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Johnny Ringo
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2/24/2023 3:04pm
Dungey did have a better SX career than both RV and RC if we’re going by career points. Everything else is subjective. Each title means the...

Dungey did have a better SX career than both RV and RC if we’re going by career points. Everything else is subjective. Each title means the same no matter how dominating, although like I said RCs in 06 and somewhat RVs in 11 are highly questionable. So when they all have roughly the same amount of titles (I don’t really give a shit about race wins, title is the goal) and you look at the years where they DIDN’T become champion, it’s not even close.
 

Dungey’s 3 more than competitive 3rds and 1 2nd blows RCs DNS, 16th, and 5th out of the water. As it does with RVs 6th, 4th and quitting early. And Dunge won as a rookie.

tomlopez wrote:
But you're halfway discounting RC's '06 title and RV's '11 title, even though you said they all mean the same and that they're the ultimate goal...

But you're halfway discounting RC's '06 title and RV's '11 title, even though you said they all mean the same and that they're the ultimate goal (which I agree with). So should we discount Dungey's 2010 title because Villopoto crashed out halfway through? His 2017 title because Roczen crashed out Round 3? Every championship comes with a few breaks going in the champ's favor, doesn;t mean you can logically take titles away in a debate of who's better all time. 

I know why you're discounting Carmichael's '06 title (the whole fuel thing), but how is Villopoto's 2011 title questioned? He beat out Reed, Stewart, and Dungey, each of which were present and competitive for basically the whole season. He even failed to make a main at Jacksonville that season because of a first-turn pile up, imagine how many more points he would've won by if he made that main event.

Bottom line is, the goal is championships. Villopoto beat Dungey for the championship every year they faced each other aside from 2010. I really don't care about who came 3rd in points more often, especially when Dungey's 3rds and 2nds in points were literally behind Villopoto because he was getting beaten by him almost every single week. And yes, that is how it went. Villopoto had Dungey's number 90% of the time they raced.

Listen, we’re talking about the best to ever do it so we’re knit picking greatness. I only discount RV in 11 slightly because I think Dungey...

Listen, we’re talking about the best to ever do it so we’re knit picking greatness. I only discount RV in 11 slightly because I think Dungey was better that year, he had a mechanical DNF and only lost the title by 10 points which is different than RV in 10 because his broken leg was a rider error. I totally discount Ricky in 06 because he lined up, raced, and got smoked by Stewart in the world rounds which should have counted. 
 

So my reasoning for Dunge being 2nd best is based on them all being equal on titles, with him having astronomically better non title years than the two gingers. This theory also puts him 2nd on the all time outdoor 450 list as well.

You discount Ricky in 06 for getting beat in two races in December? I know I say some dumb stuff on this board but this is a bridge to far even for me. 
 

Pretty convenient that the 2006 WSX left Daytona out as well, another race JS cartwheeled in. 

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2/24/2023 3:43pm
dv12.com wrote:

With that reasoning, Bill RussellSam JonesTom HeinsohnK. C. JonesSatch SandersJohn HavlicekJim LoscutoffFrank RamseyRobert Horry are all in front of Michael Jordan in the NBA Top 10 All Time... haha

Stew should be 3rd at the least on that list. No disrespect to RD, RV, Hannah and Stanton, but they should not be in the same sentence as Bubba... 

Park Boys wrote:
To say Hannah and RV should not be in the same sentence as a stretch. James is the single greatest force we have ever seen and...

To say Hannah and RV should not be in the same sentence as a stretch. James is the single greatest force we have ever seen and his 07 season is easily the greatest of all time. That being said there is no discussion where RV is not front and center. He’s arguably the second greatest racer of all time. 

Curious as to why you say Stews 07 was easily the greatest of all time compared to MC in 96 and RC in 01? Margin of...

Curious as to why you say Stews 07 was easily the greatest of all time compared to MC in 96 and RC in 01? Margin of victory? I agree it’s an all timer just curious on your thoughts on it

Competition

2007 was RC at his best, he has said he’s best SX race ever was his last one and he won twice in seven races and this was RC at his best, he was visibly better then ever, And one of those wins was due to Chad taking James out at St Louis and you could see RC looking back quite a bit wondering where James was. He went 15 - 1 against Reed that year which is insane to think about and of course Reeds one win was when James crashed. I don’t see RC or MC ever going 15-1 against Reed. 
 

I would say James 07, RC 01 and MC 96 would be my rankings and no one else is close. Including those champs other years. 
Then You could say 02 RC, 09 Stew, 00 MC, 88 RJ, etc 

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2/24/2023 3:47pm
Had Ricky Carmichael been cheating and using a performance enhancing drug like Adderall the same way James Stewart was, he would have beat him by even...

Had Ricky Carmichael been cheating and using a performance enhancing drug like Adderall the same way James Stewart was, he would have beat him by even a higher point and Championship margin then the record books show.  In 2007 when RC was ready to retire and start raising a family, he raced a part time series and still managed to beat James Stewart outdoors in 9 of the 12 motos they raced together.  James Stewart shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Ricky Carmichael. 

James and RC raced together 10 times in 2007 not 12. Some of the best battles we’ve ever seen. 
 

2007 RC was the best version which is crazy to think about. At least pre Millville RC. 
 

 

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2/24/2023 4:40pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 4:40pm
Park Boys wrote:
To say Hannah and RV should not be in the same sentence as a stretch. James is the single greatest force we have ever seen and...

To say Hannah and RV should not be in the same sentence as a stretch. James is the single greatest force we have ever seen and his 07 season is easily the greatest of all time. That being said there is no discussion where RV is not front and center. He’s arguably the second greatest racer of all time. 

Curious as to why you say Stews 07 was easily the greatest of all time compared to MC in 96 and RC in 01? Margin of...

Curious as to why you say Stews 07 was easily the greatest of all time compared to MC in 96 and RC in 01? Margin of victory? I agree it’s an all timer just curious on your thoughts on it

Park Boys wrote:
Competition 2007 was RC at his best, he has said he’s best SX race ever was his last one and he won twice in seven races...

Competition

2007 was RC at his best, he has said he’s best SX race ever was his last one and he won twice in seven races and this was RC at his best, he was visibly better then ever, And one of those wins was due to Chad taking James out at St Louis and you could see RC looking back quite a bit wondering where James was. He went 15 - 1 against Reed that year which is insane to think about and of course Reeds one win was when James crashed. I don’t see RC or MC ever going 15-1 against Reed. 
 

I would say James 07, RC 01 and MC 96 would be my rankings and no one else is close. Including those champs other years. 
Then You could say 02 RC, 09 Stew, 00 MC, 88 RJ, etc 

Guys on vital claim RC was racing as a vacation in 2007. Delusional. He retired in his absolute peak prime. Even he has said it. And JS7 handled him in 07 SX. With ease 

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2/24/2023 4:54pm
Joshracing wrote:

OK, who's the most consistent?   It's Villopoto?   Such a short period, so many wins and titles before he went fishing.

I always say that Villopoto and Carmichael, had they decided to go SX only for a few more years instead of straight up retiring, could have made a run at McGrath’s record of 72. Maybe even the 7 Championships too. McGrath went SX only at age 26. They both raced their last full season at age 26. McGrath got his last win at age 29. They’re the only 2 since MC’s retirement that would have even had a chance.

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