New brands to make a splash in the future, American, European, Chinese, what do you think

wwdiii
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League City, TX, USA
Edited Date/Time 8/19/2022 3:43pm
Will there be any new or lessor know manufacturers make a splash in Motocross, off road etc.

I was at the KTM, Kawasaki dealer down the road from me a couple of weeks back. It’s a large dealer with large showroom, lots of SxS’s and ATV’s too.. As I was walking out I asked the sales guy what brand are these ATV’s. He said CFMoto ( I think that was the brand he said) and He said I more of them than anything on the floor. He said they are Chinese. I said are they that much cheaper, he said no not really, just that much better. At first glance they did look good Chinese or not. They doesn’t mean I would buy one but they were impressive at first glance.

When I left it made me think, will the Chinese make a splash in the two wheel off-road market. They have the technology. Same for others, US, Europeans and India too. I have a Mahindra tractor that’s made here in the US but the 50 HP Engine is all Mahindra and it’s rock solid. Mahindra sells a lot of good tractors here in the US. I would think India could gin up something quality.

What do you guys think, will see any new brands in the future or lessor known raise their heads. I’m not well informed, just curious.

Thanks Billy

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SmokinJoe439
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8/18/2022 9:12am
Nope the Chinese brands just copy and way inferior in quality overall vs anything from a Japanese or euro brand.

They sale because they are cheap and attract casual customers. Or dad's who aren't sure they wanna commit on their kid who is only mildly into the sport. Or those who don't know better and like the price.

Chinese brands don't innovate they just copy as cheaply as possible. They are selling old tech bikes wrapped in what looks like a more modern package.
11
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8/18/2022 9:31am
My local Kawasaki dealer started selling CF Moto and the Yamaha dealer started selling Kayo. I figured they picked them up over last few years since they couldn’t get much inventory from the main brands.

I don’t think they’ll make a huge impact to the main brands, but may attract people who just want to dip their toe in to see if motorcycles/atvs are their thing.
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Airick
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8/18/2022 9:37am
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The Shop

Bearuno
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8/18/2022 10:16am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2022 10:21am
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products.

They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've now got higher capacity V Twins in their line.

I think much the same with the 790 Parallel Twin engine.

And, I'm not 100% sure, CF Moto may actually make the 790 / 890 engine for KTM?

CF Moto are a relatively small Chinese manufacturer, by the Behemoth size of some other Chines brands, that many of us have never heard of.

Many manufacturers have deals with Chinese and Indian, and other country companies to make engines / other components through to entire bikes for them. And, of course, many have their own Facilities in countries other than those of the manufacturers origins. It's been going on for many years now, and is accelerating. Piaggio ( Aprilia and Vespa, just 2 two of the brands Piaggio own) , BMW, The KTM group, Triumph , Ducati, HD, and of course every Japanese manufacturer do this.


I travel to Thailand every now and then to work for one of those brands.

Cripes, the amount of companies in China making Twins based on the Kawasaki 650 (and they've gone bigger in capacity than that) engine , seems to be damned near Legion.........Woohoo

Bajaj work with both KTM and Triumph. BMW with TVS. TVS - or at least their massive, Massive (Mahindra, I think, or at least ITs parent company) parent company - own BSA.


Then, you have the European brand Names that have been bought by Chinese ( Benelli, as just 1 example) and Indian companies ( Jawa, Norton, BSA ) .

Weren't the '78 / 70 / 80 CRs made, or at least PKD'd / CKD'd in the USA? - And the Goldwings of that era?

It's a diverse, intertwined World out there. It can make ones head spin. Dizzy
3
SmokinJoe439
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8/18/2022 11:00am
Bearuno wrote:
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products. They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've...
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products.

They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've now got higher capacity V Twins in their line.

I think much the same with the 790 Parallel Twin engine.

And, I'm not 100% sure, CF Moto may actually make the 790 / 890 engine for KTM?

CF Moto are a relatively small Chinese manufacturer, by the Behemoth size of some other Chines brands, that many of us have never heard of.

Many manufacturers have deals with Chinese and Indian, and other country companies to make engines / other components through to entire bikes for them. And, of course, many have their own Facilities in countries other than those of the manufacturers origins. It's been going on for many years now, and is accelerating. Piaggio ( Aprilia and Vespa, just 2 two of the brands Piaggio own) , BMW, The KTM group, Triumph , Ducati, HD, and of course every Japanese manufacturer do this.


I travel to Thailand every now and then to work for one of those brands.

Cripes, the amount of companies in China making Twins based on the Kawasaki 650 (and they've gone bigger in capacity than that) engine , seems to be damned near Legion.........Woohoo

Bajaj work with both KTM and Triumph. BMW with TVS. TVS - or at least their massive, Massive (Mahindra, I think, or at least ITs parent company) parent company - own BSA.


Then, you have the European brand Names that have been bought by Chinese ( Benelli, as just 1 example) and Indian companies ( Jawa, Norton, BSA ) .

Weren't the '78 / 70 / 80 CRs made, or at least PKD'd / CKD'd in the USA? - And the Goldwings of that era?

It's a diverse, intertwined World out there. It can make ones head spin. Dizzy
Next time your in Thailand should check out the 90's early 2000's nsr tzm Krr150 sport bikes 150cc of two stroke fun.
1
CSAR FE
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8/18/2022 11:01am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2022 11:03am
Fuck China, and especially the CCP. Chinese bikes are made from IP theft.
19
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Bearuno
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8/18/2022 11:13am
Bearuno wrote:
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products. They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've...
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products.

They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've now got higher capacity V Twins in their line.

I think much the same with the 790 Parallel Twin engine.

And, I'm not 100% sure, CF Moto may actually make the 790 / 890 engine for KTM?

CF Moto are a relatively small Chinese manufacturer, by the Behemoth size of some other Chines brands, that many of us have never heard of.

Many manufacturers have deals with Chinese and Indian, and other country companies to make engines / other components through to entire bikes for them. And, of course, many have their own Facilities in countries other than those of the manufacturers origins. It's been going on for many years now, and is accelerating. Piaggio ( Aprilia and Vespa, just 2 two of the brands Piaggio own) , BMW, The KTM group, Triumph , Ducati, HD, and of course every Japanese manufacturer do this.


I travel to Thailand every now and then to work for one of those brands.

Cripes, the amount of companies in China making Twins based on the Kawasaki 650 (and they've gone bigger in capacity than that) engine , seems to be damned near Legion.........Woohoo

Bajaj work with both KTM and Triumph. BMW with TVS. TVS - or at least their massive, Massive (Mahindra, I think, or at least ITs parent company) parent company - own BSA.


Then, you have the European brand Names that have been bought by Chinese ( Benelli, as just 1 example) and Indian companies ( Jawa, Norton, BSA ) .

Weren't the '78 / 70 / 80 CRs made, or at least PKD'd / CKD'd in the USA? - And the Goldwings of that era?

It's a diverse, intertwined World out there. It can make ones head spin. Dizzy
Next time your in Thailand should check out the 90's early 2000's nsr tzm Krr150 sport bikes 150cc of two stroke fun.
I have (ridden many Asian market ball tearers) - I'd love to be able to get some of the Big Wheel scooters and small capacity Naked Bikes that are available in many Asian Countries.

The MT150 Yamaha, is just an absolute Hoot. So trick looking, with a 150 /155cc water cooled, EFi, Variable Valve timing ball of FUN engine. The perfect get around in style bike, that has no problem keeping up , well, easily waxing most City / Town traffic.

Each time I go over to Asia / India, I want to self export / import a bundle of different bikes, that just can't be got, in "The West''. I'm trying to work out a 'contra deal' with a manufacturer for one of their bikes (full sized) instead of $$$, the next time I go, but, it presents a few too many problems. Sad
colintrax
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8/18/2022 11:25am
Bearuno wrote:
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products. They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've...
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products.

They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've now got higher capacity V Twins in their line.

I think much the same with the 790 Parallel Twin engine.

And, I'm not 100% sure, CF Moto may actually make the 790 / 890 engine for KTM?

CF Moto are a relatively small Chinese manufacturer, by the Behemoth size of some other Chines brands, that many of us have never heard of.

Many manufacturers have deals with Chinese and Indian, and other country companies to make engines / other components through to entire bikes for them. And, of course, many have their own Facilities in countries other than those of the manufacturers origins. It's been going on for many years now, and is accelerating. Piaggio ( Aprilia and Vespa, just 2 two of the brands Piaggio own) , BMW, The KTM group, Triumph , Ducati, HD, and of course every Japanese manufacturer do this.


I travel to Thailand every now and then to work for one of those brands.

Cripes, the amount of companies in China making Twins based on the Kawasaki 650 (and they've gone bigger in capacity than that) engine , seems to be damned near Legion.........Woohoo

Bajaj work with both KTM and Triumph. BMW with TVS. TVS - or at least their massive, Massive (Mahindra, I think, or at least ITs parent company) parent company - own BSA.


Then, you have the European brand Names that have been bought by Chinese ( Benelli, as just 1 example) and Indian companies ( Jawa, Norton, BSA ) .

Weren't the '78 / 70 / 80 CRs made, or at least PKD'd / CKD'd in the USA? - And the Goldwings of that era?

It's a diverse, intertwined World out there. It can make ones head spin. Dizzy
I think there was talks of the 790 engine being made in China by CFMOTO but for whatever reason it never happened. The *now* 890 is made in Austria.
CFMOTO does have rights from KTM to build the 790 engine for their own bikes though. Funny enough, the CFMOTO built engines make less power. Guess it's that Chinese quality showing through.
LungButter
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8/18/2022 11:31am
Local dealer in my podunk town sells Yamaha and CF Moto. I think it's about 4 to 1 on the quads, with 4 going to CF Moto.

Around here folks live the rural life and most of them they sell get used quite a bit, word on the street is that the CF Moto are good machines.

I'm eyeing up an SSR for my Boys next bike. I know quite a few folks that have SSR bikes in various sizes and really like them, they have full spare parts available so I'm gonna give it a shot.

Also....my Boys TTR 50 says "Made in China" right on it....it's the biggest piece of shit Yamaha I've ever owned, pretty sure they bought their bolts the same place Ikea does. It's seized once already and another time was blowing smoke like a 2 stroke so I've been lucky enough to do 2 top ends on less than a year of riding....Gotta love that Japanese quality right? Oh wait.....
3
2
SmokinJoe439
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8/18/2022 11:45am
Bearuno wrote:
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products. They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've...
CF Moto are in partnership with KTM for some of their products.

They bought the rights to the 1000cc V Twins, at least intially - they've now got higher capacity V Twins in their line.

I think much the same with the 790 Parallel Twin engine.

And, I'm not 100% sure, CF Moto may actually make the 790 / 890 engine for KTM?

CF Moto are a relatively small Chinese manufacturer, by the Behemoth size of some other Chines brands, that many of us have never heard of.

Many manufacturers have deals with Chinese and Indian, and other country companies to make engines / other components through to entire bikes for them. And, of course, many have their own Facilities in countries other than those of the manufacturers origins. It's been going on for many years now, and is accelerating. Piaggio ( Aprilia and Vespa, just 2 two of the brands Piaggio own) , BMW, The KTM group, Triumph , Ducati, HD, and of course every Japanese manufacturer do this.


I travel to Thailand every now and then to work for one of those brands.

Cripes, the amount of companies in China making Twins based on the Kawasaki 650 (and they've gone bigger in capacity than that) engine , seems to be damned near Legion.........Woohoo

Bajaj work with both KTM and Triumph. BMW with TVS. TVS - or at least their massive, Massive (Mahindra, I think, or at least ITs parent company) parent company - own BSA.


Then, you have the European brand Names that have been bought by Chinese ( Benelli, as just 1 example) and Indian companies ( Jawa, Norton, BSA ) .

Weren't the '78 / 70 / 80 CRs made, or at least PKD'd / CKD'd in the USA? - And the Goldwings of that era?

It's a diverse, intertwined World out there. It can make ones head spin. Dizzy
Next time your in Thailand should check out the 90's early 2000's nsr tzm Krr150 sport bikes 150cc of two stroke fun.
Bearuno wrote:
I have (ridden many Asian market ball tearers) - I'd love to be able to get some of the Big Wheel scooters and small capacity Naked...
I have (ridden many Asian market ball tearers) - I'd love to be able to get some of the Big Wheel scooters and small capacity Naked Bikes that are available in many Asian Countries.

The MT150 Yamaha, is just an absolute Hoot. So trick looking, with a 150 /155cc water cooled, EFi, Variable Valve timing ball of FUN engine. The perfect get around in style bike, that has no problem keeping up , well, easily waxing most City / Town traffic.

Each time I go over to Asia / India, I want to self export / import a bundle of different bikes, that just can't be got, in "The West''. I'm trying to work out a 'contra deal' with a manufacturer for one of their bikes (full sized) instead of $$$, the next time I go, but, it presents a few too many problems. Sad
I own a 1994 Yamaha tzm 150 it was Yamaha answer to the nsr150 and earlier kawie kr150. Then honda tried to one up everyone with the nsr150sp. Which didn't sell well I guess some of the leftovers ended up in aus.

My friend had a nsr150sp vs my tzm it was a let down. Everytime the tzm would just gap the poor nsr no matter who was riding it. It had more power than the nsr. In Malaysia the tzm became the most popular of the 150's they called it the highway star.


1
RyanD797
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Shoreline, WA, USA
Fantasy
8/18/2022 11:49am
If you get the SSR125, watch the motor mount bushings (bought 2 new). They deteriorate quite quickly regardless of the maintenance. I keep an extra set around. The motor mount bolts were sold out when I went to buy them, found some zinc ones from T-Bolt (I think is the name of the company) and modified the one that foot brake spring clings too. Those worked great. Otherwise the quality is decent (or as expected)... unless you have a child that holds it wide open in 1st gear for a couple hundred yards and gets the motor hot enough to melt the oil dipstick.
3
wwdiii
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League City, TX, USA
8/18/2022 11:54am
LungButter wrote:
Local dealer in my podunk town sells Yamaha and CF Moto. I think it's about 4 to 1 on the quads, with 4 going to CF...
Local dealer in my podunk town sells Yamaha and CF Moto. I think it's about 4 to 1 on the quads, with 4 going to CF Moto.

Around here folks live the rural life and most of them they sell get used quite a bit, word on the street is that the CF Moto are good machines.

I'm eyeing up an SSR for my Boys next bike. I know quite a few folks that have SSR bikes in various sizes and really like them, they have full spare parts available so I'm gonna give it a shot.

Also....my Boys TTR 50 says "Made in China" right on it....it's the biggest piece of shit Yamaha I've ever owned, pretty sure they bought their bolts the same place Ikea does. It's seized once already and another time was blowing smoke like a 2 stroke so I've been lucky enough to do 2 top ends on less than a year of riding....Gotta love that Japanese quality right? Oh wait.....
The sales guy I spoke with at the KTM, Kawasaki dealer said something similar, 4 to 1 sales in favor of CFMoto, whom I had never heard of.
Press516
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Fantasy
8/18/2022 12:29pm
I'd like to see some of the boutique brands that actually make quality bikes add breadth to their lines... Like SWM for example or Rieju. Both use quality parts and make high quality bikes. They just aren't in enough categories. Rieju likes Enduro's and SWM likes Dual Sports...

Rieju has a deal with Minarelli for 50cc 2T motors, so they seem ripe for a 50cc MX bike and why not a 65, an 85 and then a 125??

Hell, I want this just to rip around town...




As for SWM, their 500 Dual Sport makes more power than the KTM... It sure seems like they could step in to Enduro/MX if they wanted to.
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SmokinJoe439
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8/18/2022 1:21pm
Like these swm concept bikes from ecima '18? 125 n 65 mx bikes. Not sure if anything was inside the cases.




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Dave v3.0
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8/18/2022 2:20pm
The Chinese have the ability to produce quality on par with any other country. They don't, of course, because they are busy reproducing someone else's ideas at the lowest possible price.

In the mean time, they are cornering the market on all the resources that other manufacturing countries need to produce products and goods. All this results in is a race to the bottom in quality and eventually higher prices.

It will be a cold day in Hell before I buy any Chinese manufactured motorized vehicle.
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OleTex
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8/18/2022 2:29pm
We are at war with the CCP wether we acknowledge it or not. Their goal is to dominate the world in every way. The CCP has stated the Han Chinese are the superior race. Does this sound familiar? No way I would buy anything from the CCP.
7
1
8/18/2022 2:33pm
wwdiii wrote:
Will there be any new or lessor know manufacturers make a splash in Motocross, off road etc. I was at the KTM, Kawasaki dealer down the...
Will there be any new or lessor know manufacturers make a splash in Motocross, off road etc.

I was at the KTM, Kawasaki dealer down the road from me a couple of weeks back. It’s a large dealer with large showroom, lots of SxS’s and ATV’s too.. As I was walking out I asked the sales guy what brand are these ATV’s. He said CFMoto ( I think that was the brand he said) and He said I more of them than anything on the floor. He said they are Chinese. I said are they that much cheaper, he said no not really, just that much better. At first glance they did look good Chinese or not. They doesn’t mean I would buy one but they were impressive at first glance.

When I left it made me think, will the Chinese make a splash in the two wheel off-road market. They have the technology. Same for others, US, Europeans and India too. I have a Mahindra tractor that’s made here in the US but the 50 HP Engine is all Mahindra and it’s rock solid. Mahindra sells a lot of good tractors here in the US. I would think India could gin up something quality.

What do you guys think, will see any new brands in the future or lessor known raise their heads. I’m not well informed, just curious.

Thanks Billy

You forgot the Swedes
wwdiii
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League City, TX, USA
8/18/2022 7:07pm
With the Chinese trying to dominate the world I’d have guessed they would have stepped into the higher quality 2 wheel market. Even if they do I’ll pass,

Be interesting what Triumph ends up doing.
roninho
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IT
8/18/2022 10:42pm Edited Date/Time 8/18/2022 10:43pm
Press516 wrote:
I'd like to see some of the boutique brands that actually make quality bikes add breadth to their lines... Like SWM for example or Rieju. Both...
I'd like to see some of the boutique brands that actually make quality bikes add breadth to their lines... Like SWM for example or Rieju. Both use quality parts and make high quality bikes. They just aren't in enough categories. Rieju likes Enduro's and SWM likes Dual Sports...

Rieju has a deal with Minarelli for 50cc 2T motors, so they seem ripe for a 50cc MX bike and why not a 65, an 85 and then a 125??

Hell, I want this just to rip around town...




As for SWM, their 500 Dual Sport makes more power than the KTM... It sure seems like they could step in to Enduro/MX if they wanted to.
I actually have NO buying interest in a new boutique high quality mx bike. I mean i'd love to see another one next to a TM to watch it, but buy it?

No, it's quite simple i'm not going to spend my money on it and based how few TMs i see around i'm guessing the majority of the mx market isnt.

What i would be interested in is a reliable and quality product that is simply way lower priced. I am willing to give in a lot on performance of the bike (not rideability), since i am not even close to using most of the bikes capabilities anyway.
Zoom
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8/19/2022 6:04am
13,000 Stark VARG's from Spain on order globally right now, slated for delivery in 2023. They should make a pretty big splash.


6
1
stone881
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8/19/2022 7:38am
Zoom wrote:
13,000 Stark VARG's from Spain on order globally right now, slated for delivery in 2023. They should make a pretty big splash. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/08/19/564602/s1200_Stark_White.jpg[/img]
13,000 Stark VARG's from Spain on order globally right now, slated for delivery in 2023. They should make a pretty big splash.


The big question is can they get the materials they need to complete those orders? Spain has gone full marxist and anti Russia, so imo it remains to be seen.
2
keinz
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8/19/2022 11:39am Edited Date/Time 8/19/2022 11:53am
Obviously, it's StarkSmile , but don't underestimate CFMOTO https://cfmotousa.com and their qualiy-price ratio. They have quality products, hands down. In our region CF is def the best selling ATV brand atm. And keep your eyes on Kayo, and Odes, those Chinese brands are growing fast, and in EV department don't forget such a brand like Super SOCO
1
Lucky Foster
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8/19/2022 3:09pm
Its all about the European movement! Better Quality and innovative design. Cost more than China but in the long run super worth it!
8/19/2022 3:20pm Edited Date/Time 8/19/2022 3:43pm
I have a YCF 150 pitbike racer that is pretty damn cool and out runs a lot of the big bore 140s and big dollar Japanese pit bikes. A little crude but no worse what we were working on in the 70s from the Japanese. Well worth the $2500 shipped to my door


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