I'm sure oil is a overused topic but

McG194
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McG194
Edited Date/Time 7/22/2022 3:39pm
I'm thinking about making the change.

I'm an MMI educated tech and also running a M/C call center have had numerous petroleum engineers for MC oil companies fill me full of propaganda. Therefore, I've always been a motorcycle specific oil guy but watching so many Jay Clark videos I do respect his knowledge and am considering trying Rotella.

My question is if you use it what weight do you use and what is your experience?
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Factor E
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Factor E 7/18/2022 10:03am
7/18/2022 10:03am
T4 15-45
A Lot
This thread should not be drawn out
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Luke_Richards
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Luke_Richards 7/18/2022 2:04pm
7/18/2022 2:04pm
Isn’t ester the highest quality oil you can get? Correct me if I’m wrong. With that said I use motul
Mr. Robinson 7/18/2022 2:31pm
7/18/2022 2:31pm
It all depends on the application. Haven't seen any diesel dirt bikes lately.
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Broseph
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Broseph 7/18/2022 4:23pm
7/18/2022 4:23pm
Mr. Robinson wrote:
It all depends on the application. Haven't seen any diesel dirt bikes lately.
What requirements does a dirtbike have that diesel engine oil doesn’t meet?

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Melicar
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Melicar 7/18/2022 6:00pm
7/18/2022 6:00pm
For anyone that is interested I found the answer to this question a long time ago and it should make both sides of the argument satisfied. Motorcycle specific, JASO MA2 rating, and only $4.85 a quart from Amazon. Key take away topics are outlined in red for you Heathens.



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Mr. Robinson 7/18/2022 6:42pm
7/18/2022 6:42pm
Mr. Robinson wrote:
It all depends on the application. Haven't seen any diesel dirt bikes lately.
Broseph wrote:
What requirements does a dirtbike have that diesel engine oil doesn’t meet?
A wet clutch and a constant mesh transmission.
1
Broseph
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Broseph 7/18/2022 6:51pm
7/18/2022 6:51pm
Mr. Robinson wrote:
It all depends on the application. Haven't seen any diesel dirt bikes lately.
Broseph wrote:
What requirements does a dirtbike have that diesel engine oil doesn’t meet?
Mr. Robinson wrote:
A wet clutch and a constant mesh transmission.
Diesel engines have gears, and Rotella is MA2 rated. What else you got?
captmoto
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captmoto 7/18/2022 11:16pm
7/18/2022 11:16pm
Broseph wrote:
Diesel engines have gears, and Rotella is MA2 rated. What else you got?
What gears? You mean a timing chain? Timing belt?
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McG194
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McG194 7/19/2022 5:09am
7/19/2022 5:09am
Mr. Robinson wrote:
It all depends on the application. Haven't seen any diesel dirt bikes lately.
Broseph wrote:
What requirements does a dirtbike have that diesel engine oil doesn’t meet?
Mr. Robinson wrote:
A wet clutch and a constant mesh transmission.
That is why up until now I have stuck with motorcycle oil. Most oil helps slidy things and a motorcycle has a clutch which the oil has to have anti shear properties.
1
MotoTribology 7/19/2022 6:59am
7/19/2022 6:59am
The 15W-40 and 5W-40 are the ones most users swear by.

The most consistent issue I came across with Rotella was decreased change intervals compared to motorcycle specific oils. It seems clutch performance degrades somewhat quicker with Rotella for some reason (my best guess would be shear), but changing it often enough you probably won't notice that.

The less consistent issue I hard of was just poor shifting and lots of slip in the clutch right off the bat, but that wasn't as common as the above issue.
Broseph
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Broseph 7/19/2022 7:09am
7/19/2022 7:09am
Broseph wrote:
Diesel engines have gears, and Rotella is MA2 rated. What else you got?
captmoto wrote:
What gears? You mean a timing chain? Timing belt?
Timing belt? This ain’t a Prius.

Gears. And more gears transferring power than in a dirt bike.


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chuckie108
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chuckie108 7/19/2022 7:22am
7/19/2022 7:22am
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in my cases that I could plug a gauge into after coming off the track for those wondering how I did that) And transmission feel was more notchy as well. It may be inexpensive, and I know some guys have had a good experience with it, but there are better options out there. I personally have gone to Amsoil because I get it at a decent price, and it has great testing results, and I’ve had a great experience with it. Every time I tear into one of my bikes because it is at what would be considered a normal time based replacement interval, the parts I’m replacing measure and look perfect.
6
Broseph
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Broseph 7/19/2022 8:03am
7/19/2022 8:03am
chuckie108 wrote:
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in...
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in my cases that I could plug a gauge into after coming off the track for those wondering how I did that) And transmission feel was more notchy as well. It may be inexpensive, and I know some guys have had a good experience with it, but there are better options out there. I personally have gone to Amsoil because I get it at a decent price, and it has great testing results, and I’ve had a great experience with it. Every time I tear into one of my bikes because it is at what would be considered a normal time based replacement interval, the parts I’m replacing measure and look perfect.
Was this before or after the 2016 specification change?
chuckie108
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chuckie108 7/19/2022 8:45am
7/19/2022 8:45am
Broseph wrote:
Was this before or after the 2016 specification change?
This would have been sometime in 2014.
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23champ
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23champ 7/19/2022 10:27am
7/19/2022 10:27am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2022 10:30am

What about the Lucas, Troy Lee Designs oil? Is it any good?

kNewc
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kNewc 7/19/2022 12:58pm
7/19/2022 12:58pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2022 12:58pm
chuckie108 wrote:
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in...
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in my cases that I could plug a gauge into after coming off the track for those wondering how I did that) And transmission feel was more notchy as well. It may be inexpensive, and I know some guys have had a good experience with it, but there are better options out there. I personally have gone to Amsoil because I get it at a decent price, and it has great testing results, and I’ve had a great experience with it. Every time I tear into one of my bikes because it is at what would be considered a normal time based replacement interval, the parts I’m replacing measure and look perfect.
That's the biggest thing I notice with quality oil - clutch and gear feel. When I use Motorex or BelRay or good synthetics my gears seem to "click" into gear better and the clutch feels better. Has anyone switched from Rotella to good oil and noticed the same? I'm a slow C guy and I immediately noticed a difference and won't be using cheap oils again. Then again I'm not racing, change oil around 10 hours per manual...
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Broseph
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Broseph 7/19/2022 2:53pm
7/19/2022 2:53pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2022 3:29pm
chuckie108 wrote:
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in...
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in my cases that I could plug a gauge into after coming off the track for those wondering how I did that) And transmission feel was more notchy as well. It may be inexpensive, and I know some guys have had a good experience with it, but there are better options out there. I personally have gone to Amsoil because I get it at a decent price, and it has great testing results, and I’ve had a great experience with it. Every time I tear into one of my bikes because it is at what would be considered a normal time based replacement interval, the parts I’m replacing measure and look perfect.
kNewc wrote:
That's the biggest thing I notice with quality oil - clutch and gear feel. When I use Motorex or BelRay or good synthetics my gears seem...
That's the biggest thing I notice with quality oil - clutch and gear feel. When I use Motorex or BelRay or good synthetics my gears seem to "click" into gear better and the clutch feels better. Has anyone switched from Rotella to good oil and noticed the same? I'm a slow C guy and I immediately noticed a difference and won't be using cheap oils again. Then again I'm not racing, change oil around 10 hours per manual...
I run Maxima Extra4 15w50 (the expensive stuff…got a great deal on 5 gallons). Honestly I think the 2016 onward Rotella 15w40 shifts better and has better clutch performance. Sticking with the Maxima until rebuild time. Probably switch back to Rotella T4 afterwards.
1
AJ565
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AJ565 7/19/2022 3:44pm
7/19/2022 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2022 3:45pm
Factory KTM Canada use to dump out all the Motrex oil bottles and refill them with rotella so people saw them using “Motrex”. This was 2004-2005 that I’m sure about, I don’t know how long before or after they did it.
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sandman768
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sandman768 7/20/2022 4:09am
7/20/2022 4:09am
I love a good oil thread😂…I have used Rotella T6 in the blue bottle, which states Ma/Ma2 Jaso rated, same as Motorcycle oil. 100hrs on a crf450 & 100 hrs on a KTm Sxf450, at top end rebuilds both engines looked great, no clutch of shifting issues with the Rotella. I could guarantee if someone poured the Rotella in your engine, you could not tell the difference between oils. I used to be able to get the T6 at Walmart for a decent price, My local Walmart & Autozone have not had the T6 in over a year, so I”m back to Maxima Pro Plus….. which smells very similar to the Rotella 👌 …
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McG194
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McG194 7/20/2022 12:25pm
7/20/2022 12:25pm
23champ wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/07/19/560211/s1200_6E2DB75E_0E3C_4BC9_86FD_202CE88EE5C4.jpg[/img] What about the Lucas, Troy Lee Designs oil? Is it any good?

What about the Lucas, Troy Lee Designs oil? Is it any good?

I like the idea of saving money but I also like supporting the sport. Regardless what you think of the MAV TV fiasco they do contribute to the sport.
2
swordfish
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swordfish 7/20/2022 2:56pm
7/20/2022 2:56pm
sandman768 wrote:
I love a good oil thread😂…I have used Rotella T6 in the blue bottle, which states Ma/Ma2 Jaso rated, same as Motorcycle oil. 100hrs on a...
I love a good oil thread😂…I have used Rotella T6 in the blue bottle, which states Ma/Ma2 Jaso rated, same as Motorcycle oil. 100hrs on a crf450 & 100 hrs on a KTm Sxf450, at top end rebuilds both engines looked great, no clutch of shifting issues with the Rotella. I could guarantee if someone poured the Rotella in your engine, you could not tell the difference between oils. I used to be able to get the T6 at Walmart for a decent price, My local Walmart & Autozone have not had the T6 in over a year, so I”m back to Maxima Pro Plus….. which smells very similar to the Rotella 👌 …
T6 shears faster than T4 in many UOA’s I have seen. My local NAPA just got a skid of T4 for the first time in close to a year. The Walmart Supertech 15/40 is fairly similar to T4.
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wrc777
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wrc777 7/21/2022 5:50am
7/21/2022 5:50am
chuckie108 wrote:
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in...
I tried Rotella once. Rotella ran 8-10 degrees hotter than the Torco I was using at the time. (I had a small sending unit installed in my cases that I could plug a gauge into after coming off the track for those wondering how I did that) And transmission feel was more notchy as well. It may be inexpensive, and I know some guys have had a good experience with it, but there are better options out there. I personally have gone to Amsoil because I get it at a decent price, and it has great testing results, and I’ve had a great experience with it. Every time I tear into one of my bikes because it is at what would be considered a normal time based replacement interval, the parts I’m replacing measure and look perfect.
kNewc wrote:
That's the biggest thing I notice with quality oil - clutch and gear feel. When I use Motorex or BelRay or good synthetics my gears seem...
That's the biggest thing I notice with quality oil - clutch and gear feel. When I use Motorex or BelRay or good synthetics my gears seem to "click" into gear better and the clutch feels better. Has anyone switched from Rotella to good oil and noticed the same? I'm a slow C guy and I immediately noticed a difference and won't be using cheap oils again. Then again I'm not racing, change oil around 10 hours per manual...
Broseph wrote:
I run Maxima Extra4 15w50 (the expensive stuff…got a great deal on 5 gallons). Honestly I think the 2016 onward Rotella 15w40 shifts better and has...
I run Maxima Extra4 15w50 (the expensive stuff…got a great deal on 5 gallons). Honestly I think the 2016 onward Rotella 15w40 shifts better and has better clutch performance. Sticking with the Maxima until rebuild time. Probably switch back to Rotella T4 afterwards.
I used some T4 I bought 2 years ago in a CRF250RX and did not think it shifted as well as the Honda oil. I have not tried it in my KTM to see if the transmission feel is bike specific.
crawfishoo 7/21/2022 8:16am
7/21/2022 8:16am
I was a Rotella T6 user for many years, but have since moved on. I don't think anyone can argue it works well enough for most people. Is it the best oil for your bike, probably not for a simple reason, additive pack and basic math.

Any given oil is ~80% base stock with 20% additive pack. Diesel specific oils (CI, CJ, CK-4 rated), will use a large portion of that 20% additive pack for soot dispersents, sulfation and oxidation control. None of those additives are needed for a gasoline MX bike engine. So you are left with a smaller percentage of desirable additives for the application. You can not get as robust of and additive pack on a diesel oil as you can on a gasoline/bike specific oil.

I'm not suggesting that Rotella has not worked well nor do I believe its a bad oil. It's a great oil for diesel engines! And I used it for many years without issue on bikes. But as I have learned more about oil I personally stopped using it for MX bikes.

The most important thing about oil, change it frequently and you will likely never have an issue regardless of brand or type used.
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Broseph
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Broseph 7/21/2022 9:13am
7/21/2022 9:13am
crawfishoo wrote:
I was a Rotella T6 user for many years, but have since moved on. I don't think anyone can argue it works well enough for most...
I was a Rotella T6 user for many years, but have since moved on. I don't think anyone can argue it works well enough for most people. Is it the best oil for your bike, probably not for a simple reason, additive pack and basic math.

Any given oil is ~80% base stock with 20% additive pack. Diesel specific oils (CI, CJ, CK-4 rated), will use a large portion of that 20% additive pack for soot dispersents, sulfation and oxidation control. None of those additives are needed for a gasoline MX bike engine. So you are left with a smaller percentage of desirable additives for the application. You can not get as robust of and additive pack on a diesel oil as you can on a gasoline/bike specific oil.

I'm not suggesting that Rotella has not worked well nor do I believe its a bad oil. It's a great oil for diesel engines! And I used it for many years without issue on bikes. But as I have learned more about oil I personally stopped using it for MX bikes.

The most important thing about oil, change it frequently and you will likely never have an issue regardless of brand or type used.
Holy vague generalization batman! What are these “desirable” additives that are missing from diesel engine oil?
crawfishoo 7/21/2022 10:03am
7/21/2022 10:03am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 1:55pm
Broseph wrote:
Holy vague generalization batman! What are these “desirable” additives that are missing from diesel engine oil?
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson.

Trying to highlight in simple terms, a diesel specific oil uses a large portion of available additive volume for things that an MX bike doesn't need. A bike or gasoline specific oil can have a larger volume of anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitors, anti-wear, EP, and anti-foaming additives vs a diesel oil that is heavy on detergents and dispersants.

Don't read into that statement any more than a knowledge nugget. Not trying to sway anyone to or from a particular oil. I used to think that diesel oil was great because it has "extra" additives for heavy duty engines and was thus a better oil. Guessing several people might have that same incorrect assumption.





Broseph
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Broseph 7/21/2022 10:06am
7/21/2022 10:06am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 10:07am
Broseph wrote:
Holy vague generalization batman! What are these “desirable” additives that are missing from diesel engine oil?
crawfishoo wrote:
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson. Trying to highlight in simple terms, a...
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson.

Trying to highlight in simple terms, a diesel specific oil uses a large portion of available additive volume for things that an MX bike doesn't need. A bike or gasoline specific oil can have a larger volume of anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitors, anti-wear, EP, and anti-foaming additives vs a diesel oil that is heavy on detergents and dispersants.

Don't read into that statement any more than a knowledge nugget. Not trying to sway anyone to or from a particular oil. I used to think that diesel oil was great because it has "extra" additives for heavy duty engines and was thus a better oil. Guessing several people might have that same incorrect assumption.





I want that in depth chemistry lesson. Let’s hear it!

Otherwise I’m calling your bluff.
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crawfishoo 7/21/2022 1:50pm
7/21/2022 1:50pm
Broseph wrote:
Holy vague generalization batman! What are these “desirable” additives that are missing from diesel engine oil?
crawfishoo wrote:
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson. Trying to highlight in simple terms, a...
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson.

Trying to highlight in simple terms, a diesel specific oil uses a large portion of available additive volume for things that an MX bike doesn't need. A bike or gasoline specific oil can have a larger volume of anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitors, anti-wear, EP, and anti-foaming additives vs a diesel oil that is heavy on detergents and dispersants.

Don't read into that statement any more than a knowledge nugget. Not trying to sway anyone to or from a particular oil. I used to think that diesel oil was great because it has "extra" additives for heavy duty engines and was thus a better oil. Guessing several people might have that same incorrect assumption.





Broseph wrote:
I want that in depth chemistry lesson. Let’s hear it!

Otherwise I’m calling your bluff.
Not sure what I'm bluffing about?? That oils are specifically formulated to a given application? I'm not interested in a debate about oil usage. I'm simply stating that diesel vs gasoline oils additives are different and tailored to the application.

Use whatever oil satisfices your taste and change it frequently. I have used T6 in the past, nothing wrong with it. As my knowledge of oil increased, my desire to use T6 in bikes decreased. I'm not going to write an essay on the topic, there is more info available on web than anyone could learn in a lifetime. And a Vital forum, or Jay Clark for that matter, is not a good or reputable place to get advice on oil. If you truly are interested start with understanding API classifications and here are some good SAE papers below on additives packages in engine oils.

https://www.api.org/-/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publi…
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2003-01-1956/
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/890725/
1
Factor E
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Factor E 7/21/2022 1:51pm
7/21/2022 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 1:52pm
Hey Broseph why don't you end this by going ELECTRIC !!
No Lesson needed
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Broseph
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Broseph 7/21/2022 3:58pm
7/21/2022 3:58pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 4:17pm
crawfishoo wrote:
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson. Trying to highlight in simple terms, a...
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson.

Trying to highlight in simple terms, a diesel specific oil uses a large portion of available additive volume for things that an MX bike doesn't need. A bike or gasoline specific oil can have a larger volume of anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitors, anti-wear, EP, and anti-foaming additives vs a diesel oil that is heavy on detergents and dispersants.

Don't read into that statement any more than a knowledge nugget. Not trying to sway anyone to or from a particular oil. I used to think that diesel oil was great because it has "extra" additives for heavy duty engines and was thus a better oil. Guessing several people might have that same incorrect assumption.





Broseph wrote:
I want that in depth chemistry lesson. Let’s hear it!

Otherwise I’m calling your bluff.
crawfishoo wrote:
Not sure what I'm bluffing about?? That oils are specifically formulated to a given application? I'm not interested in a debate about oil usage. I'm simply...
Not sure what I'm bluffing about?? That oils are specifically formulated to a given application? I'm not interested in a debate about oil usage. I'm simply stating that diesel vs gasoline oils additives are different and tailored to the application.

Use whatever oil satisfices your taste and change it frequently. I have used T6 in the past, nothing wrong with it. As my knowledge of oil increased, my desire to use T6 in bikes decreased. I'm not going to write an essay on the topic, there is more info available on web than anyone could learn in a lifetime. And a Vital forum, or Jay Clark for that matter, is not a good or reputable place to get advice on oil. If you truly are interested start with understanding API classifications and here are some good SAE papers below on additives packages in engine oils.

https://www.api.org/-/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publi…
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2003-01-1956/
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/890725/
You claimed to have specific knowledge of some “desirable” additives that were missing in diesel engine oil, yet you won’t say what these are or why they’re necessary in a dirtbike.

Which is why I think you’re bluffing about the knowledge you have on the subject.

If you’re not, go ahead and hit us with that “in-depth chemistry lesson” so we can make better decisions about oil going forward.
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Rider 5280
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Rider 5280 7/21/2022 10:12pm
7/21/2022 10:12pm
crawfishoo wrote:
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson. Trying to highlight in simple terms, a...
Good observation, vague and generalized on purpose. I'm guessing most on this forum don't want an in-depth chemistry lesson.

Trying to highlight in simple terms, a diesel specific oil uses a large portion of available additive volume for things that an MX bike doesn't need. A bike or gasoline specific oil can have a larger volume of anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitors, anti-wear, EP, and anti-foaming additives vs a diesel oil that is heavy on detergents and dispersants.

Don't read into that statement any more than a knowledge nugget. Not trying to sway anyone to or from a particular oil. I used to think that diesel oil was great because it has "extra" additives for heavy duty engines and was thus a better oil. Guessing several people might have that same incorrect assumption.





Broseph wrote:
I want that in depth chemistry lesson. Let’s hear it!

Otherwise I’m calling your bluff.
crawfishoo wrote:
Not sure what I'm bluffing about?? That oils are specifically formulated to a given application? I'm not interested in a debate about oil usage. I'm simply...
Not sure what I'm bluffing about?? That oils are specifically formulated to a given application? I'm not interested in a debate about oil usage. I'm simply stating that diesel vs gasoline oils additives are different and tailored to the application.

Use whatever oil satisfices your taste and change it frequently. I have used T6 in the past, nothing wrong with it. As my knowledge of oil increased, my desire to use T6 in bikes decreased. I'm not going to write an essay on the topic, there is more info available on web than anyone could learn in a lifetime. And a Vital forum, or Jay Clark for that matter, is not a good or reputable place to get advice on oil. If you truly are interested start with understanding API classifications and here are some good SAE papers below on additives packages in engine oils.

https://www.api.org/-/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publi…
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2003-01-1956/
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/890725/
I thought you laid out some aspects of oil that are easy to miss that really differentiate gas vs. diesel applications.

You're well spoken and I appreciate your post.
2

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