Poll - Changing Up Votes and Down Votes

Silas444
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647
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Location
Mid-state, ME, USA
6/19/2022 11:21am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 11:22am
aeffertz wrote:
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of...
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of backlash. Then they removed the downvote button from videos which garnered even more backlash from viewers and creators alike. Only allowing upvotes is pointless and misleading.

I personally find the upvote/downvote system great. It eliminates a lot of pointless “this” or “x2” or “I agree” or “no” follow up posts and clutter. IMO, there’s no reason to display who gave you an upvote or downvote but having the feature there will indicate the general consensus of the board if all the votes are anonymous. If I see someone post something terrible like a racist comment or a personal attack and it is overwhelmingly downvoted, I feel a sigh of relief that all my peers on this board seem to agree that it’s not okay to say something like that. Or on the other hand, if a comment like that was upvoted by a lot of people, I would question if I even want to be part of this community if that type of comment was positively received.

I wouldn’t vote for either option offered because I think making both upvotes and downvotes anonymous would be the best option. Showing people the user that disagrees with your comment but doesn’t have much else to say other than “I disagree” just creates a fuel for fire for some users and they will use that info to attack the person that disagrees with them. Most people aren’t going to go after someone that agrees with them, which is why I’m sure they show the people that give a 👍 at the moment.

You can tell some people feel personally attacked by downvotes and they get upset because they don’t know who to lash out against. See the following:




Everyone has an opinion, just like me, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you or me. I think if you voice your opinion to the public crowd, the crowd should be allowed to either boo or praise you. If I give an opinion and it’s widely frowned upon, it would definitely make me think about that opinion some more and make me think maybe I am wrong.

In closing, I think making both options anonymous would be better than the current system, showing who downvoted or completely eliminating the entire feature. I view a forum as speaking a room full of people and the voting system allows me to read the room. If they agree, they agree and if they disagree, they disagree. No need to point out the individuals that agree or disagree as it can fuel a certain type of person’s fire to go out of their way and harass the person that disagreed with them.
I couldn't disagree more. Those who post on this site are not paid entertainers, whatever we post, we post gratis. But even if we did get paid to post and the readers had to pay to read what we write - what then? Well, let's use the parallel you used in your post to derive an answer. If you attend a paid speaking engagement and you immediately start to heckle and harass the speaker, what do the people there do? They kick you out. And when that happens, you're hardly anonymous, now are you? Nope. In fact, you're almost as memorable as the speaker at that point.

The VitalMX forum is a place that carries a bit of peril for those who make controversial posts, AS IT SHOULD. We're not a sewing circle, after all, we're people who are drawn to danger, as evidenced by the fact that we ride motocross, one of the most dangerous sports on planet earth.

There's a saying about transparency that goes, "Fresh air is the best disinfectant." I agree. And to that end, I think it's just fine for a negative a consensus to form regarding something I might post, as I've always been a controversial person - BUT - I also think it's fine for me to know if those who disagree with me are people whom I respect or people I don't. In fact, I would go farther that to say it is "fine," I would say it is........ VITAL.

See what i did there?
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FIREfish148
Posts
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Kirkland, WA, USA
6/19/2022 12:17pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 12:19pm
DonM wrote:
Just dump the downvote...I think by keeping the downvote and showing who it is will open up a whole new negative can of worms...we need less...
Just dump the downvote...I think by keeping the downvote and showing who it is will open up a whole new negative can of worms...we need less trolling not more...
-MAVERICK- wrote:
I also think showing the downvotes will cause more problems. Members are going to go after other members asking/demanding why they downvoted their posts and it'll...
I also think showing the downvotes will cause more problems. Members are going to go after other members asking/demanding why they downvoted their posts and it'll just escalate from there.

It's just going to cause more moderation on the forums and more people getting banned.
I mean if you can see why someone might downvote your post then it’s not taken personal, right? I personally don’t have the time to sit here and comb through the threads looking for whoever downvoted my post to post so I can downvote them. I’m a member on dawgman.com also and the downvote is shown. We downvote and up vote eachother all the time. You know you’re out of pocket if some of the regulars that seem to be in the know downvote you. Either way I don’t really care but it seems weird to only show the upvotes.

Also, if you’re computer savvy enough you can find out who down voted you it’s not that hard…
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1
6/19/2022 12:34pm
aeffertz wrote:
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of...
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of backlash. Then they removed the downvote button from videos which garnered even more backlash from viewers and creators alike. Only allowing upvotes is pointless and misleading.

I personally find the upvote/downvote system great. It eliminates a lot of pointless “this” or “x2” or “I agree” or “no” follow up posts and clutter. IMO, there’s no reason to display who gave you an upvote or downvote but having the feature there will indicate the general consensus of the board if all the votes are anonymous. If I see someone post something terrible like a racist comment or a personal attack and it is overwhelmingly downvoted, I feel a sigh of relief that all my peers on this board seem to agree that it’s not okay to say something like that. Or on the other hand, if a comment like that was upvoted by a lot of people, I would question if I even want to be part of this community if that type of comment was positively received.

I wouldn’t vote for either option offered because I think making both upvotes and downvotes anonymous would be the best option. Showing people the user that disagrees with your comment but doesn’t have much else to say other than “I disagree” just creates a fuel for fire for some users and they will use that info to attack the person that disagrees with them. Most people aren’t going to go after someone that agrees with them, which is why I’m sure they show the people that give a 👍 at the moment.

You can tell some people feel personally attacked by downvotes and they get upset because they don’t know who to lash out against. See the following:




Everyone has an opinion, just like me, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you or me. I think if you voice your opinion to the public crowd, the crowd should be allowed to either boo or praise you. If I give an opinion and it’s widely frowned upon, it would definitely make me think about that opinion some more and make me think maybe I am wrong.

In closing, I think making both options anonymous would be better than the current system, showing who downvoted or completely eliminating the entire feature. I view a forum as speaking a room full of people and the voting system allows me to read the room. If they agree, they agree and if they disagree, they disagree. No need to point out the individuals that agree or disagree as it can fuel a certain type of person’s fire to go out of their way and harass the person that disagreed with them.
No. You've completely misunderstood me.

Im not feeling personally attacked at all. I just want to make it clear that even if we disagree, I won't downvote you. If you say something horrible to me, I won't downvote you. If you make a personal attack towards me, I won't downvote you- in fact, I'll likely Upvote you so you can see I have acknowledged it and am not bothered by it.

Downvotes dont bother me shit. They're futile. And I want people to know it.

I used to downvote- but then I asked myself WTH I thought I was achieveing?? Now I LAUGH at the downvoters- they think they hold enough power to upset people. Well, they dont.

Far far away from the idea I feel personally attacked. You're very wrong about that.
7

The Shop

Titan1
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Lehi, UT, USA
6/19/2022 12:49pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 12:50pm
I voted to Make the downvotes transparent. It will result in less downvotes.
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Broseph
Posts
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Stevenson, WA, USA
6/19/2022 12:50pm
aeffertz wrote:
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of...
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of backlash. Then they removed the downvote button from videos which garnered even more backlash from viewers and creators alike. Only allowing upvotes is pointless and misleading.

I personally find the upvote/downvote system great. It eliminates a lot of pointless “this” or “x2” or “I agree” or “no” follow up posts and clutter. IMO, there’s no reason to display who gave you an upvote or downvote but having the feature there will indicate the general consensus of the board if all the votes are anonymous. If I see someone post something terrible like a racist comment or a personal attack and it is overwhelmingly downvoted, I feel a sigh of relief that all my peers on this board seem to agree that it’s not okay to say something like that. Or on the other hand, if a comment like that was upvoted by a lot of people, I would question if I even want to be part of this community if that type of comment was positively received.

I wouldn’t vote for either option offered because I think making both upvotes and downvotes anonymous would be the best option. Showing people the user that disagrees with your comment but doesn’t have much else to say other than “I disagree” just creates a fuel for fire for some users and they will use that info to attack the person that disagrees with them. Most people aren’t going to go after someone that agrees with them, which is why I’m sure they show the people that give a 👍 at the moment.

You can tell some people feel personally attacked by downvotes and they get upset because they don’t know who to lash out against. See the following:




Everyone has an opinion, just like me, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you or me. I think if you voice your opinion to the public crowd, the crowd should be allowed to either boo or praise you. If I give an opinion and it’s widely frowned upon, it would definitely make me think about that opinion some more and make me think maybe I am wrong.

In closing, I think making both options anonymous would be better than the current system, showing who downvoted or completely eliminating the entire feature. I view a forum as speaking a room full of people and the voting system allows me to read the room. If they agree, they agree and if they disagree, they disagree. No need to point out the individuals that agree or disagree as it can fuel a certain type of person’s fire to go out of their way and harass the person that disagreed with them.
I like your style. Well said.
Titan1
Posts
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Lehi, UT, USA
6/19/2022 12:51pm
How about Make downvotes transparent, and having a running total of net positive/negative votes, And the ranking is below their name…every post they make adds to their net positive/negative poster rating based on the number of likes and dislikes. This will help identify the trolls for who they really are, and can be taken into consideration when replying to someone.

Someone says something, and you think reply but notice that person has a negative 10000 post rating, so you realize it isn’t worth the hassle and move on.

Someone says something you disagree with, and when you go to reply, you notice that they have a positive 10000 post ranking, so it makes you reconsider their point as they are obviously usually an amicable poster, so they are either acting out of character or are making a point with considering.
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6/19/2022 12:54pm
aeffertz wrote:
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of...
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of backlash. Then they removed the downvote button from videos which garnered even more backlash from viewers and creators alike. Only allowing upvotes is pointless and misleading.

I personally find the upvote/downvote system great. It eliminates a lot of pointless “this” or “x2” or “I agree” or “no” follow up posts and clutter. IMO, there’s no reason to display who gave you an upvote or downvote but having the feature there will indicate the general consensus of the board if all the votes are anonymous. If I see someone post something terrible like a racist comment or a personal attack and it is overwhelmingly downvoted, I feel a sigh of relief that all my peers on this board seem to agree that it’s not okay to say something like that. Or on the other hand, if a comment like that was upvoted by a lot of people, I would question if I even want to be part of this community if that type of comment was positively received.

I wouldn’t vote for either option offered because I think making both upvotes and downvotes anonymous would be the best option. Showing people the user that disagrees with your comment but doesn’t have much else to say other than “I disagree” just creates a fuel for fire for some users and they will use that info to attack the person that disagrees with them. Most people aren’t going to go after someone that agrees with them, which is why I’m sure they show the people that give a 👍 at the moment.

You can tell some people feel personally attacked by downvotes and they get upset because they don’t know who to lash out against. See the following:




Everyone has an opinion, just like me, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you or me. I think if you voice your opinion to the public crowd, the crowd should be allowed to either boo or praise you. If I give an opinion and it’s widely frowned upon, it would definitely make me think about that opinion some more and make me think maybe I am wrong.

In closing, I think making both options anonymous would be better than the current system, showing who downvoted or completely eliminating the entire feature. I view a forum as speaking a room full of people and the voting system allows me to read the room. If they agree, they agree and if they disagree, they disagree. No need to point out the individuals that agree or disagree as it can fuel a certain type of person’s fire to go out of their way and harass the person that disagreed with them.
Broseph wrote:
I like your style. Well said.
Bro- honest question.... What do you 'get' from downvoting?

A kick? A Buzz? How does it make you feel & what do you feel like you're achieving?

Like I say- not a dig at you, I just genuinely want to understand what it's about.
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6/19/2022 1:20pm
Oh, and for the record, Ive NEVER e-mailed Michael asking who had downvoted me. Ever.
Has anyone actually done that? You keep trying to convince everyone that you don’t care but everything I see suggests that a simple downvote bothers you quite a bit
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bvm111
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6/19/2022 1:27pm
but what about the bears


2
ProKawi24
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6/19/2022 1:29pm
I don't really care either way. Honestly I can't remember if I've ever downvoted anyone before, ever. If I read something I strongly agree with or is really cool, I'll upvote it. If it's something I disagree with or think is stupid/someone being an ahole, I just move on.

Maybe make it so anytime someone downvotes a box pops up and requires them to state why they did it. If someone had to explain their reasoning besides "ur an asshole I don't like you" it would stop people from just clicking for the hell of it. For example if someone downvotes this post it will show who they are and a brief explanation as to why. Just a thought.
1
6/19/2022 1:52pm
Oh, and for the record, Ive NEVER e-mailed Michael asking who had downvoted me. Ever.
Has anyone actually done that? You keep trying to convince everyone that you don’t care but everything I see suggests that a simple downvote bothers you...
Has anyone actually done that? You keep trying to convince everyone that you don’t care but everything I see suggests that a simple downvote bothers you quite a bit
Michael has actually said in the past people have messaged him asking- ask him, if you wish to clarify.

"Everything"? Well, not a lot more I can say on the matter. There's nothing I can do to convince you if you dont want to believe it.
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davis224
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Fantasy
6/19/2022 2:25pm
davis224 wrote:
It's fine the way it is, if someone is so emotionally fragile they can't handle that someone disagrees with their opinion, they definitely don't need to...
It's fine the way it is, if someone is so emotionally fragile they can't handle that someone disagrees with their opinion, they definitely don't need to know their identity. It allows you to go "hey, not everyone agrees with that" without instigating an argument. Keep it the way it is or scrap it.
So far, 5 people have downvoted my post, and that is fine. I know it is probably a mix of people who are trolling, emotionally fragile, disagree and want to show it but don't want to waste the energy to argue/discuss it, and people who disagree and are willing to voice a valid reason through a reply, hopefully followed by a meaningful, cool headed discussion.

It's fine. Life goes on. I don't demand an explanation every time someone disagrees with me.
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1
davis224
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6/19/2022 2:33pm
smee113 wrote:
Option 3 - Keep things as is. Only snowflakes care about getting downvoted.
Magoofan wrote:
Ummmm. it's a bigger picture than that. There are downvotes on posts where you'd have to be a complete asshole to do so. Something like this...
Ummmm. it's a bigger picture than that. There are downvotes on posts where you'd have to be a complete asshole to do so. Something like this: "Rider A recovering from injury, long road ahead"....seen plenty of cases like this around here. Those people downvoting should not be allowed to hide.

For me, I couldn't care less if someone downvotes me.

Why does it matter? Also, you're projecting what you're imagining their intent to be. Maybe some people are downvoting it because they don't want to give a "thumbs up" to an injury?

And if they really are being a complete POS about it, why value that person's opinion? Why engage them and start a conflict? You say "why should they be allowed to hide" like you want to hunt them down and right the wrong that you created in your head.
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6/19/2022 3:06pm
IMO The thumbs up/thumbs down thing was easily the worst feature added to this site. It completely changed the way people talked on here, for the worse. It rewards hivemind esque group think and encourages people to post what they think other people will 'like' instead of what they honestly think even if it's flat out wrong or not popular. Half the time more people are talking about how many thumbs up or thumbs down an opinion or their post received instead of the actual post itself. Making downvotes public won't fix it. The whole thing should go. It's total trash.
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9
Broseph
Posts
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Location
Stevenson, WA, USA
6/19/2022 3:30pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 3:33pm
aeffertz wrote:
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of...
The biggest backlash YouTube has gotten is removing the downvote feature. First they stopped comments from receiving downvotes, which was met with an overwhelming amount of backlash. Then they removed the downvote button from videos which garnered even more backlash from viewers and creators alike. Only allowing upvotes is pointless and misleading.

I personally find the upvote/downvote system great. It eliminates a lot of pointless “this” or “x2” or “I agree” or “no” follow up posts and clutter. IMO, there’s no reason to display who gave you an upvote or downvote but having the feature there will indicate the general consensus of the board if all the votes are anonymous. If I see someone post something terrible like a racist comment or a personal attack and it is overwhelmingly downvoted, I feel a sigh of relief that all my peers on this board seem to agree that it’s not okay to say something like that. Or on the other hand, if a comment like that was upvoted by a lot of people, I would question if I even want to be part of this community if that type of comment was positively received.

I wouldn’t vote for either option offered because I think making both upvotes and downvotes anonymous would be the best option. Showing people the user that disagrees with your comment but doesn’t have much else to say other than “I disagree” just creates a fuel for fire for some users and they will use that info to attack the person that disagrees with them. Most people aren’t going to go after someone that agrees with them, which is why I’m sure they show the people that give a 👍 at the moment.

You can tell some people feel personally attacked by downvotes and they get upset because they don’t know who to lash out against. See the following:




Everyone has an opinion, just like me, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you or me. I think if you voice your opinion to the public crowd, the crowd should be allowed to either boo or praise you. If I give an opinion and it’s widely frowned upon, it would definitely make me think about that opinion some more and make me think maybe I am wrong.

In closing, I think making both options anonymous would be better than the current system, showing who downvoted or completely eliminating the entire feature. I view a forum as speaking a room full of people and the voting system allows me to read the room. If they agree, they agree and if they disagree, they disagree. No need to point out the individuals that agree or disagree as it can fuel a certain type of person’s fire to go out of their way and harass the person that disagreed with them.
Broseph wrote:
I like your style. Well said.
Bro- honest question.... What do you 'get' from downvoting? A kick? A Buzz? How does it make you feel & what do you feel like you're...
Bro- honest question.... What do you 'get' from downvoting?

A kick? A Buzz? How does it make you feel & what do you feel like you're achieving?

Like I say- not a dig at you, I just genuinely want to understand what it's about.
None of the above. In my opinion, it’s just a polite way to say “I disagree with what you’re saying”.

Why would it be anything more than that? (Also an honest question. I don’t understand how it is seen as a big deal sometimes.)
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dingo
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USA
6/19/2022 3:59pm
I’d like to see stats for everyone. Maybe a total next to the username? Percentage of votes that are up/down
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jgmdr520
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San Antonio, TX, USA
6/19/2022 4:14pm
Down votes are hilarious. Reactions to them separate the people who have a sense of humor from those who do not.
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McG194
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Palm Coast, FL, USA
6/19/2022 4:15pm
Do away with downvotes but leave upvotes.

Sometimes someone says something well enough that I have nothing to add to it so an upvote saves a response of "Agreed"

There are serial downvoters or people who downvote someone they don't like which amuses me to no end. Downvote me because you don't like me, but I don't know who you are. Nothing like letting someone live rent free in your head.

If I legitimately have some response that I don't like enough to downvote I should be able to articulate why I don't like it or disagree with it. That hopefully leads to good discussion and not flame wars.
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6/19/2022 4:17pm
I never up vote, I’m a proud down voter of stupidity and dooshbaggery
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6/19/2022 4:19pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 4:20pm
I really don’t give a shit when people give me a down vote, but I would like my name to show up when I down vote someone else. I WANT you to know…. It’s easier than posting a negative comment and hurting some feelings.

Can we have a toggle button in preferences that can just turn off the whole thing ? This way the ones who live for “ up votes and likes “ can have their lives complete and the ones that get their feelings hurt, don’t have to see how bad their down votes are today. Lol
My old iPad doesn’t show the up/down votes at all, because I’ve never updated it. I certainly don’t care either way, but I happen to notice it when I turned it on the other day. It’s slow as hell though, pretty much worthless.

What’s pretty funny to me is that some of the people who want to leave it as is (hiding the names) are probably the ones down voting and don’t want to be uncovered as the serial down voters. Lol
Own it…. We are all allowed to have an opinion, but why hide it ? Just weird…
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2
Crush
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6/19/2022 4:22pm
ML512 wrote:
I appreciate the honesty, ha! I think we have some serious serial down voters here who might be swayed away from just clicking down vote on...
I appreciate the honesty, ha!

I think we have some serious serial down voters here who might be swayed away from just clicking down vote on everything if it's visible. I don't think it would eliminate much down votes overall though. Like in J. Sloan's case, who just often posts unpopular opinions so he'll get downvotes no matter what. It just might decrease the serial ones a bit. Also might make users reflect more on what they say if they visually see who is downvoting them. Or it might do nothing at all.

Due to the turmoil in the world and a bit of how outdoors streaming has begun, things are a little rough around here right now. But it's hard for me to just click people because they're being pissy and not directly breaking rules. Then we start trending towards the heavy-handed moderation I don't want to be a part of. In the same breath though, it can't just continue. So just kicking the can around on how we improve things.
Either piss em off or add the names. No one should worry if someone disagrees with you, like anything else we should be able to discuss whatever civily, we're all adults, but providing anonymity does nothing but increase troll-like down-voting.
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BigBoreFan58
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Beverly Hills, CA, USA
6/19/2022 4:23pm
Show the down-voters, or shit can the entire voting feature.
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4
Big Lenny
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Compton, CA, USA
6/19/2022 4:57pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 5:06pm
The Anon downvoter is the board coward..The same kinda person that would stab you in the back IMO...Dry
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aeffertz
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La Crosse, WI, USA
6/19/2022 5:05pm
Bro- honest question.... What do you 'get' from downvoting? A kick? A Buzz? How does it make you feel & what do you feel like you're...
Bro- honest question.... What do you 'get' from downvoting?

A kick? A Buzz? How does it make you feel & what do you feel like you're achieving?

Like I say- not a dig at you, I just genuinely want to understand what it's about.
Easier to click downvote than to type out a response for most of the nonsensical posts on here.

Some of y’all are so sensitive to criticism you quote your own posts and ask “who downvoted this?!” as if you want to fight the person that disagreeed with you.
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6/19/2022 6:17pm
Langhammx wrote:
I really don’t give a shit when people give me a down vote, but I would like my name to show up when I down vote...
I really don’t give a shit when people give me a down vote, but I would like my name to show up when I down vote someone else. I WANT you to know…. It’s easier than posting a negative comment and hurting some feelings.

Can we have a toggle button in preferences that can just turn off the whole thing ? This way the ones who live for “ up votes and likes “ can have their lives complete and the ones that get their feelings hurt, don’t have to see how bad their down votes are today. Lol
My old iPad doesn’t show the up/down votes at all, because I’ve never updated it. I certainly don’t care either way, but I happen to notice it when I turned it on the other day. It’s slow as hell though, pretty much worthless.

What’s pretty funny to me is that some of the people who want to leave it as is (hiding the names) are probably the ones down voting and don’t want to be uncovered as the serial down voters. Lol
Own it…. We are all allowed to have an opinion, but why hide it ? Just weird…
I down voted you
6/19/2022 6:22pm
Langhammx wrote:
I really don’t give a shit when people give me a down vote, but I would like my name to show up when I down vote...
I really don’t give a shit when people give me a down vote, but I would like my name to show up when I down vote someone else. I WANT you to know…. It’s easier than posting a negative comment and hurting some feelings.

Can we have a toggle button in preferences that can just turn off the whole thing ? This way the ones who live for “ up votes and likes “ can have their lives complete and the ones that get their feelings hurt, don’t have to see how bad their down votes are today. Lol
My old iPad doesn’t show the up/down votes at all, because I’ve never updated it. I certainly don’t care either way, but I happen to notice it when I turned it on the other day. It’s slow as hell though, pretty much worthless.

What’s pretty funny to me is that some of the people who want to leave it as is (hiding the names) are probably the ones down voting and don’t want to be uncovered as the serial down voters. Lol
Own it…. We are all allowed to have an opinion, but why hide it ? Just weird…
UpTiTe wrote:
I down voted you
Fuck yeah, thanks.
McG194
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Location
Palm Coast, FL, USA
6/19/2022 6:29pm
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/06/19/555793/s1200_6k80ib.jpg[/img]

Best post of the year!
OleTex
Posts
658
Joined
7/16/2016
Location
Central, TX, USA
6/19/2022 6:31pm
ML, I would get rid of it. It’s not something grown men and women should engage in. Decent and civilized debate should be the norm.

Thank you.
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