Carbon Monoxide Issues at Minneapolis SX?

moto348
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2/21/2022 11:30pm Edited Date/Time 2/21/2022 11:34pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Yes, it sounds like exposure to the organic chemicals in race fuel. It's nasty stuff. Carbon monoxide doesn't have an odor, and it's toxicity comes from...
Yes, it sounds like exposure to the organic chemicals in race fuel. It's nasty stuff.

Carbon monoxide doesn't have an odor, and it's toxicity comes from essentially suffocation, in that carbon monoxide binds more tightly than oxygen to the iron in blood, starving the body of oxygen giving life. That's why they make CO sensors since it's a silent killer. Usually CO poisoning happens in homes from fuel heaters not working and giving incomplete combustion. It can happen in engines but given the symptoms it sounds more like fuel vapor.

Years ago, natural gas was contaminated with CO and that's why people stuck their head in the oven to kill themselves.
That makes a lot of sense that it’s related to the fuel. I assume that’d be the burning of the fuel as opposed to the just the vapor from unburnt fuel sitting around?
I didn’t find a single article that stated anything about bloodshot eyes deriving from carbon monoxide. Not to say that it wasn’t an issue as it’s probably a combination of the fuel & CO.

I noticed a track worker pouring fuel onto the X drawn in the start straight shortly before the opening ceremonies. I wonder what type of fuel that was because once it was lit, it burned for quite a while & that could also have contributed. A lot of pyrotechnics went off as well. Made for a decent show, but for a sealed off building, not so much.
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Pop Shmoke
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2/22/2022 4:00am Edited Date/Time 2/22/2022 4:32am
Us bank stadium statement.


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Crash81
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2/22/2022 5:50am Edited Date/Time 2/22/2022 5:54am
I really wish the AMA would stop lining the VP execs' pockets and regulate the fuel better. We don't need these highly volatile fuels anymore. You're getting almost no power benefits, and it costs a fortune.

Honestly, they could just use a decent premium pump gas and tell everyone "This is what you get. Tune your engines for it."
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Munson'd
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2/22/2022 5:50am
We sat in the 300 level for the night show and I could feel air being forced in from above us(it was slightly chilly). That being said we still had bloodshot eyes, sore throats, and stuffy noses the next day.
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The Shop

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2/22/2022 6:59am Edited Date/Time 2/22/2022 7:03am
Crash81 wrote:
I really wish the AMA would stop lining the VP execs' pockets and regulate the fuel better. We don't need these highly volatile fuels anymore. You're...
I really wish the AMA would stop lining the VP execs' pockets and regulate the fuel better. We don't need these highly volatile fuels anymore. You're getting almost no power benefits, and it costs a fortune.

Honestly, they could just use a decent premium pump gas and tell everyone "This is what you get. Tune your engines for it."
There is a benefit, the good VP fuels are so crisp.

In MotoAmerica (road racing) we have spec fuel. It's VP MGP and it's absolute garbage. Makes about the same power as pump 93 from WaWa. The difference between MGP and say VP's MR12 is about 8 horsepower. Obviously, this gain on a smaller engine would be less but the gain is still there.


I agree that the cost is dumb for the top fuels and we don't need it. $25+ a gallon. Even our junk MGP is $18 a gallon. Which is insanity considering its not good fuel.
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moto348
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2/22/2022 7:27am
Munson'd wrote:
We sat in the 300 level for the night show and I could feel air being forced in from above us(it was slightly chilly). That being...
We sat in the 300 level for the night show and I could feel air being forced in from above us(it was slightly chilly). That being said we still had bloodshot eyes, sore throats, and stuffy noses the next day.
Were you there for all day for qualifying prior to the night show?
Bruce372
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2/22/2022 7:28am
Bruce372 wrote:
Yes, it sounds like exposure to the organic chemicals in race fuel. It's nasty stuff. Carbon monoxide doesn't have an odor, and it's toxicity comes from...
Yes, it sounds like exposure to the organic chemicals in race fuel. It's nasty stuff.

Carbon monoxide doesn't have an odor, and it's toxicity comes from essentially suffocation, in that carbon monoxide binds more tightly than oxygen to the iron in blood, starving the body of oxygen giving life. That's why they make CO sensors since it's a silent killer. Usually CO poisoning happens in homes from fuel heaters not working and giving incomplete combustion. It can happen in engines but given the symptoms it sounds more like fuel vapor.

Years ago, natural gas was contaminated with CO and that's why people stuck their head in the oven to kill themselves.
moto348 wrote:
That makes a lot of sense that it’s related to the fuel. I assume that’d be the burning of the fuel as opposed to the just...
That makes a lot of sense that it’s related to the fuel. I assume that’d be the burning of the fuel as opposed to the just the vapor from unburnt fuel sitting around?
I didn’t find a single article that stated anything about bloodshot eyes deriving from carbon monoxide. Not to say that it wasn’t an issue as it’s probably a combination of the fuel & CO.

I noticed a track worker pouring fuel onto the X drawn in the start straight shortly before the opening ceremonies. I wonder what type of fuel that was because once it was lit, it burned for quite a while & that could also have contributed. A lot of pyrotechnics went off as well. Made for a decent show, but for a sealed off building, not so much.
No, it's the fuel vapor from the cans and tanks and unburnt fuel passing out the pipe and sitting in the air.

The main products from combustion are water and carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide from incomplete combustion. These don't fit the symptoms people are saying.

If there are traces of nitrogen or sulfur in fuel, then you can get acidic components (acid rain), however, I doubt that's an issue with highly processed racing fuels.
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garasaki
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2/22/2022 8:35am
I read the facebook comments, especially those from the stadium, about how many monitors they have in the HVAC system.

HVAC monitors would be tracking Carbon Dioxide, which is exhaled by people and makes a room feel "stuffy" when too much of it builds up (and makes the people in the room feel sleepy). CO2 monitoring provides assurance that you are bringing enough ventilation into a room for normal use, and can be used as a proxy measurement for how many people are in a building. Building codes are aimed at providing enough outside air in a commercial building to offset the CO2 generated by the occupants.

CO2 is not the same as CO (carbon monoxide, which seems unlikely to be an issue here) or whatever fumes the bikes and fuel are putting into the air.

I've never designed an NFL stadium before, but I think it would be very unlikely they have any equipment to monitor whatever was in the air that made people sick.
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Munson'd
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2/22/2022 8:37am
Munson'd wrote:
We sat in the 300 level for the night show and I could feel air being forced in from above us(it was slightly chilly). That being...
We sat in the 300 level for the night show and I could feel air being forced in from above us(it was slightly chilly). That being said we still had bloodshot eyes, sore throats, and stuffy noses the next day.
moto348 wrote:
Were you there for all day for qualifying prior to the night show?
We got there around 1130am and left when it was done. We sat in the 100 level during qualifying.
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moto348
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2/22/2022 9:50am
garasaki wrote:
I read the facebook comments, especially those from the stadium, about how many monitors they have in the HVAC system. HVAC monitors would be tracking Carbon...
I read the facebook comments, especially those from the stadium, about how many monitors they have in the HVAC system.

HVAC monitors would be tracking Carbon Dioxide, which is exhaled by people and makes a room feel "stuffy" when too much of it builds up (and makes the people in the room feel sleepy). CO2 monitoring provides assurance that you are bringing enough ventilation into a room for normal use, and can be used as a proxy measurement for how many people are in a building. Building codes are aimed at providing enough outside air in a commercial building to offset the CO2 generated by the occupants.

CO2 is not the same as CO (carbon monoxide, which seems unlikely to be an issue here) or whatever fumes the bikes and fuel are putting into the air.

I've never designed an NFL stadium before, but I think it would be very unlikely they have any equipment to monitor whatever was in the air that made people sick.
So this points towards VOCs (or something of the like) in the race fuel most likely?
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moto348
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2/22/2022 10:23am
Bruce372 wrote:
No, it's the fuel vapor from the cans and tanks and unburnt fuel passing out the pipe and sitting in the air. The main products from...
No, it's the fuel vapor from the cans and tanks and unburnt fuel passing out the pipe and sitting in the air.

The main products from combustion are water and carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide from incomplete combustion. These don't fit the symptoms people are saying.

If there are traces of nitrogen or sulfur in fuel, then you can get acidic components (acid rain), however, I doubt that's an issue with highly processed racing fuels.
Any idea on what specific compound/material/toxin that it could be?
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2/22/2022 10:42am Edited Date/Time 2/22/2022 10:42am
garasaki wrote:
I read the facebook comments, especially those from the stadium, about how many monitors they have in the HVAC system. HVAC monitors would be tracking Carbon...
I read the facebook comments, especially those from the stadium, about how many monitors they have in the HVAC system.

HVAC monitors would be tracking Carbon Dioxide, which is exhaled by people and makes a room feel "stuffy" when too much of it builds up (and makes the people in the room feel sleepy). CO2 monitoring provides assurance that you are bringing enough ventilation into a room for normal use, and can be used as a proxy measurement for how many people are in a building. Building codes are aimed at providing enough outside air in a commercial building to offset the CO2 generated by the occupants.

CO2 is not the same as CO (carbon monoxide, which seems unlikely to be an issue here) or whatever fumes the bikes and fuel are putting into the air.

I've never designed an NFL stadium before, but I think it would be very unlikely they have any equipment to monitor whatever was in the air that made people sick.
I would think they would be setup to monitor CO and CO2 since these are things they HVAC would encounter all the time with crowds but probably don’t have anything setup to look for all the nasty stuff in race gas.
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garasaki
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2/22/2022 11:20am
garasaki wrote:
I read the facebook comments, especially those from the stadium, about how many monitors they have in the HVAC system. HVAC monitors would be tracking Carbon...
I read the facebook comments, especially those from the stadium, about how many monitors they have in the HVAC system.

HVAC monitors would be tracking Carbon Dioxide, which is exhaled by people and makes a room feel "stuffy" when too much of it builds up (and makes the people in the room feel sleepy). CO2 monitoring provides assurance that you are bringing enough ventilation into a room for normal use, and can be used as a proxy measurement for how many people are in a building. Building codes are aimed at providing enough outside air in a commercial building to offset the CO2 generated by the occupants.

CO2 is not the same as CO (carbon monoxide, which seems unlikely to be an issue here) or whatever fumes the bikes and fuel are putting into the air.

I've never designed an NFL stadium before, but I think it would be very unlikely they have any equipment to monitor whatever was in the air that made people sick.
I would think they would be setup to monitor CO and CO2 since these are things they HVAC would encounter all the time with crowds but...
I would think they would be setup to monitor CO and CO2 since these are things they HVAC would encounter all the time with crowds but probably don’t have anything setup to look for all the nasty stuff in race gas.
CO monitoring may existing in their boiler/mechanical room (if they have natural gas burning boilers on site), but I wouldn't see why they'd have it out on the floor.

My main point was that the FB posts by the stadium itself is promoting the idea that they have a bunch of monitoring equipment in their HVAC system, but those monitors aren't monitoring whatever it is that made people sick.

As pointed out by others, the system in the building certainly has the capability to provide adequate ventilation. Someone done f'ed up
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2/22/2022 11:37am
garasaki wrote:
CO monitoring may existing in their boiler/mechanical room (if they have natural gas burning boilers on site), but I wouldn't see why they'd have it out...
CO monitoring may existing in their boiler/mechanical room (if they have natural gas burning boilers on site), but I wouldn't see why they'd have it out on the floor.

My main point was that the FB posts by the stadium itself is promoting the idea that they have a bunch of monitoring equipment in their HVAC system, but those monitors aren't monitoring whatever it is that made people sick.

As pointed out by others, the system in the building certainly has the capability to provide adequate ventilation. Someone done f'ed up
All enclosed arenas hosting motorsports events must monitor for CO.

https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/air/arenas/enclo…

Took about 5 seconds to find
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garasaki
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2/22/2022 12:02pm
garasaki wrote:
CO monitoring may existing in their boiler/mechanical room (if they have natural gas burning boilers on site), but I wouldn't see why they'd have it out...
CO monitoring may existing in their boiler/mechanical room (if they have natural gas burning boilers on site), but I wouldn't see why they'd have it out on the floor.

My main point was that the FB posts by the stadium itself is promoting the idea that they have a bunch of monitoring equipment in their HVAC system, but those monitors aren't monitoring whatever it is that made people sick.

As pointed out by others, the system in the building certainly has the capability to provide adequate ventilation. Someone done f'ed up
All enclosed arenas hosting motorsports events must monitor for CO.

https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/air/arenas/enclo…

Took about 5 seconds to find
Ah, well, it'd be interesting to see where those are located and what they read during the event, and what they did as a result of those readings.
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Bruce372
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2/22/2022 12:30pm
Bruce372 wrote:
No, it's the fuel vapor from the cans and tanks and unburnt fuel passing out the pipe and sitting in the air. The main products from...
No, it's the fuel vapor from the cans and tanks and unburnt fuel passing out the pipe and sitting in the air.

The main products from combustion are water and carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide from incomplete combustion. These don't fit the symptoms people are saying.

If there are traces of nitrogen or sulfur in fuel, then you can get acidic components (acid rain), however, I doubt that's an issue with highly processed racing fuels.
moto348 wrote:
Any idea on what specific compound/material/toxin that it could be?
Its difficult, I don't think it's ethers, maybe alkenes, since they can be reactive, not sure if they still use them.

Also, I've read msds and they use small amounts of alkyl bromides.. these are often lacrimatory, and have the added bonus of reacting with DNA to give you cancer.
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aees
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2/22/2022 12:35pm
Co2 readers do no good to indicate polluted air as this seems to have been. It's even counterproductive since it indicates "good" air.

Needs to be a VOC sensor which no HVAC system has by default.

So air was polluted, they just could not catch it.
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moto348
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2/22/2022 12:49pm Edited Date/Time 2/22/2022 12:52pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Its difficult, I don't think it's ethers, maybe alkenes, since they can be reactive, not sure if they still use them. Also, I've read msds and...
Its difficult, I don't think it's ethers, maybe alkenes, since they can be reactive, not sure if they still use them.

Also, I've read msds and they use small amounts of alkyl bromides.. these are often lacrimatory, and have the added bonus of reacting with DNA to give you cancer.
I'm not a chemist but a couple google searches revealed something lacrimatory is related to tear production, correct?

I strangely enough didn't experience any issues with my eyes, just felt miserable the next day because I drank 3 beers at the race & a bunch more afterwards and it was the first time I drank in nearly 4 months. The 3 of us in my group all wear contacts, could that have been something that helped? We were only there for the night show.

For the MSDS & alkyl bromides, which products? VP's 4-stroke fuels? Are those alkyl bromides acutely toxic or more of a low-level repeated exposure long term toxin?

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2/22/2022 1:20pm
garasaki wrote:
Ah, well, it'd be interesting to see where those are located and what they read during the event, and what they did as a result of...
Ah, well, it'd be interesting to see where those are located and what they read during the event, and what they did as a result of those readings.
According to the MN site I posted, the air quality readings must be made available to the public upon request. So if you want to know, you should contact the facility management, I'd say
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resetjet
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2/22/2022 1:27pm
Its quite common in camping situations. Maybe the pits played a role.
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TeamGreen
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2/22/2022 1:36pm
resetjet wrote:
Its quite common in camping situations. Maybe the pits played a role.
Also common in a CRJ when you run the Aux and leave the damn door open! Sideways
Pop Shmoke
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2/22/2022 2:43pm
garasaki wrote:
Ah, well, it'd be interesting to see where those are located and what they read during the event, and what they did as a result of...
Ah, well, it'd be interesting to see where those are located and what they read during the event, and what they did as a result of those readings.
According to the MN site I posted, the air quality readings must be made available to the public upon request. So if you want to know...
According to the MN site I posted, the air quality readings must be made available to the public upon request. So if you want to know, you should contact the facility management, I'd say
Someone needs to do this so theres facts out there vs all this speculation.
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moto348
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2/22/2022 3:15pm Edited Date/Time 2/22/2022 3:16pm
Bruce372 wrote:
The symptoms sound a lot like acute exposure to organic chemicals, and obviously there us overlap with CO exposures. I think the pro race fuel has...
The symptoms sound a lot like acute exposure to organic chemicals, and obviously there us overlap with CO exposures. I think the pro race fuel has lacrimatory components, hence the blood shot eyes.

I can't comprehend how bad the race fuel smells when doing the pit walk in years past. Just one bike with a bit of the stuff in the tank can stink the house out.
Just seeing your post about this now & it adds up a lot of the issues.

I've not been close to a bike with race fuel in it but I'd believe your take on how potent the smell is. When we were walking in through the skyway, I could smell something that was just odd, but I don't think it was the race exhaust unless it was an "aired down" version of exhaust. I thought it was weird to be smelling it when bikes had been off the track for over an hour at that point though.
Otherwise, could it have been fuel vapors that got sucked into the HVAC system and distributed throughout the whole facility?

Also, why would a race fuel product have lacrimatory components? Help produce more power?

Was anyone here in the pits at all? Were there race fuel cans stored in the pit areas inside the stadium?
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moto348
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2/22/2022 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 2/22/2022 3:19pm
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Someone needs to do this so theres facts out there vs all this speculation.
I sent in a message via the contact form on stadium's website asking for reports for CO & NO2 and any exceedance reports as mentioned by the MN Dept of Health. Also asked if there are tests for VOCs. I want to know wtf was in the air.
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Bruce372
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2/22/2022 3:29pm
Yes, lacrimators are severe eye irritants that cause the eyes to water. Often this is associated with additional toxicological outcomes
moto348
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2/22/2022 3:36pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Yes, lacrimators are severe eye irritants that cause the eyes to water. Often this is associated with additional toxicological outcomes
Such as what?
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Bruce372
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2/22/2022 3:59pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Yes, lacrimators are severe eye irritants that cause the eyes to water. Often this is associated with additional toxicological outcomes
moto348 wrote:
Such as what?
Respiratory tract damage, organ damage, nerve damage, cancers.

Not trying to be melodramatic here, but fuels can contain nasty stuff... of course, so do many things and it all comes down to the amount and the frequency of exposure.

I looked upVP pro6 and it contains up to 48% isoproprene as well as ethers and aromatics such as toluene.

Benzene is a known carcinogen, toluene isn't as bad.

Isoprene is nasty stuff and I think it's responsible for fhe bad smell. Ispprene polymerizes. Just like styrene turns into polystyrene. To polymerize , it needs to be reactive. If it's reactive, it can react with tissues.
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2/22/2022 5:29pm
If your arms go numb and a flat parking lot is waves, your in big trouble and near death. I raced to get out of the truck in a railyard . I was found unconscious I wake up in er. I got diesel exhaust and burning antifreeze poisoning numerous times. Prednisone and antibiotics aprox 18 times. I still hv a severe sinus and ear infection from the 1st of 2 junk trucks of my current co. Makes ya feel so miserable .
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Spergen
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2/22/2022 5:32pm
Has anyone been to the doctor's and had blood samples taken if you felt that bad?
2/22/2022 5:51pm
Spergen wrote:
Has anyone been to the doctor's and had blood samples taken if you felt that bad?
I was told by a dr that after 24 hrs your blood stream is nearly cleaned out. I failed the lung test 1 day later. Not allowed to work for 30 days CDL rules. Prednisone and strong antibiotics for 30 days. Then another lung test where you sit in a booth . The exhaling at your max for quite a few seconds is hell.
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