Sx reached its limit?

Racer142
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So I saw a stat that said you have to go back to Utah 2020 to get a podium without Roczen, Tomac, or Webb on it and that got me to thinking are we reaching the limit to speed in SX? So here's my thought.

Just a couple years ago Dungey set the record for most consecutive podiums at I believe 31. A record that I believe was held by Reed before him. That was the end of a season, a complete season, and part of a third season. No matter what happened he found his way to the front because he was that much faster than the rest of the field. No such thing as a bad start, injury, mechanical, etc for 31 races. Now the Stat is between 3 riders for 1 season.

Back just a few years before that Bubba, RC, and CR would find their way to the front of the pack No matter what, McGrath before that, and even more recently with Roczen and Tomac to a degree when they moved into the 450 class up until recently. We're steadily seeing the gap from 1-3 and 7-10 close to the point that starts appear to be more important that ever.

Are we simply seeing the progression stall and the back markers close the gap?
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1/19/2022 11:16pm
Like most things, it is simply a formula. A series of calculations that amount to an end result.
More trainers and riders are figuring out that formula as time goes on, but two big variables exist that cannot be controlled- those being luck & desire.

We can overthink these things though and IMO it’s just best to enjoy it for what it is.
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MKMX
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1/20/2022 12:32am
You only have to go back to the weekend to see a podium without Tomac, Webb or Roczen.
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3
CPR
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1/20/2022 2:13am
Racer142 wrote:
So I saw a stat that said you have to go back to Utah 2020 to get a podium without Roczen, Tomac, or Webb on it...
So I saw a stat that said you have to go back to Utah 2020 to get a podium without Roczen, Tomac, or Webb on it and that got me to thinking are we reaching the limit to speed in SX? So here's my thought.

Just a couple years ago Dungey set the record for most consecutive podiums at I believe 31. A record that I believe was held by Reed before him. That was the end of a season, a complete season, and part of a third season. No matter what happened he found his way to the front because he was that much faster than the rest of the field. No such thing as a bad start, injury, mechanical, etc for 31 races. Now the Stat is between 3 riders for 1 season.

Back just a few years before that Bubba, RC, and CR would find their way to the front of the pack No matter what, McGrath before that, and even more recently with Roczen and Tomac to a degree when they moved into the 450 class up until recently. We're steadily seeing the gap from 1-3 and 7-10 close to the point that starts appear to be more important that ever.

Are we simply seeing the progression stall and the back markers close the gap?
I get what you’re saying, but it’s a combination of factors.
Yeah everyone has caught onto the program, more riders being ‘professional’, having trainers and they all know what it takes. However modern bikes are better too, more consistent and easier to ride in varying conditions. Add in the technology progression; programmable ecu’s, start maps, suspension sensors and gps data like litpro. Then you have consistent metal grate start grids and standardised tracks and obstacles etc. etc. etc.

Is shouldn’t be any surprise that gaps in the field have been closed.
But is that necessarily a bad thing?
2
ElliotB16
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1/20/2022 3:08am
The overall talent and speed has progressed a lot in the last 15 years. Makes the races a lot more fun to watch.
1

The Shop

Richy
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1/20/2022 3:40am
Close racing = good racing, no complaints here
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HD1200
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1/20/2022 6:25am
ElliotB16 wrote:
The overall talent and speed has progressed a lot in the last 15 years. Makes the races a lot more fun to watch.
I'm my opinion, not that you're wrong by any means but there are allot of factors where they have to away from talent to make things more equal, example the starts.
1/20/2022 7:13am
ElliotB16 wrote:
The overall talent and speed has progressed a lot in the last 15 years. Makes the races a lot more fun to watch.
HD1200 wrote:
I'm my opinion, not that you're wrong by any means but there are allot of factors where they have to away from talent to make things...
I'm my opinion, not that you're wrong by any means but there are allot of factors where they have to away from talent to make things more equal, example the starts.
Get rid of the stupid starting devices and the start would be even more important and exciting.. if everyone is using it then what's the purpose of having them?
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enketchum
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1/20/2022 9:59am
bikes are too fast and consistent. Most 125 guys back in the day couldn't even hit a triple every lap
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Racer142
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1/20/2022 10:28am
MKMX wrote:
You only have to go back to the weekend to see a podium without Tomac, Webb or Roczen.
I know that was the point. Before last weekend you had to go back to 2020 finale to get a podium without one of the 3. Maybe reading comprehension isn't your thing.

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Racer142
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1/20/2022 10:33am
CPR wrote:
I get what you’re saying, but it’s a combination of factors. Yeah everyone has caught onto the program, more riders being ‘professional’, having trainers and they...
I get what you’re saying, but it’s a combination of factors.
Yeah everyone has caught onto the program, more riders being ‘professional’, having trainers and they all know what it takes. However modern bikes are better too, more consistent and easier to ride in varying conditions. Add in the technology progression; programmable ecu’s, start maps, suspension sensors and gps data like litpro. Then you have consistent metal grate start grids and standardised tracks and obstacles etc. etc. etc.

Is shouldn’t be any surprise that gaps in the field have been closed.
But is that necessarily a bad thing?
This is the direction I was going. With all the advancements in technology there aren't any secrets anymore. You can only jump a triple so fast and turn a corner so fast especially with standardized obstacles. I personally wish they would ban a lot of data acquisition in race day. Lit pro telling every rider which line is a fraction of a second faster or speed sensors telling them where they are getting wheel spin. Let these guys feel it out and develop race strategy.
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1/20/2022 11:08am
Get rid of the stupid starting devices and the start would be even more important and exciting.. if everyone is using it then what's the purpose...
Get rid of the stupid starting devices and the start would be even more important and exciting.. if everyone is using it then what's the purpose of having them?
Let’s get rid of rear suspension- that’ll make timing & jump technique much more important and exciting..
If everyone is using it, then what’s the purpose in having them?
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6
1/20/2022 11:29am
The bigger thing to notice, is amount of sold out stadiums and TV viewership, when those decline, that is when it's reached it's peak. Everything I've ever seen in this industry is anecdotal nonsense from buddies "Dude, its sold out" to the fake news on the broadcast (usually was Ralph Shaheen, not so much the RC and Leigh dudes) "Sold out crowd" as they pan to 60% empty stadium and not mentioning how many of those tickets were industry, etc...
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peltier626
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1/20/2022 11:39am
Bikes have superseded the threshold. It's a merry go round of millimeters nowadays.
3
tomlopez
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1/20/2022 11:59am
All I know is that in my opinion, the 2011 season was the best season of Supercross I've ever witnessed, and I don't know how the sport could find its way back to that but I would be stoked if it did. You had Stew and Reed, both legends at the time, in the mix every week. Villo and Dunge were younger and less established but were at that level as well (with Villo being great most consistently), and even Canard would sneak his nose in there. But, for the most part, it was four giants of the sport that were going at it, each one looking the best on different weeks, all season. That was peak SX in my opinion.
5
MX Culture
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1/20/2022 2:22pm
The bigger thing to notice, is amount of sold out stadiums and TV viewership, when those decline, that is when it's reached it's peak. Everything I've...
The bigger thing to notice, is amount of sold out stadiums and TV viewership, when those decline, that is when it's reached it's peak. Everything I've ever seen in this industry is anecdotal nonsense from buddies "Dude, its sold out" to the fake news on the broadcast (usually was Ralph Shaheen, not so much the RC and Leigh dudes) "Sold out crowd" as they pan to 60% empty stadium and not mentioning how many of those tickets were industry, etc...
Tickets can be sold out without a full stadium.
Scalpers and resellers buy tickets early on to try to resell and make money.
Sometimes they eat them.
Some people buy tickets and don't end up going.
I'm not saying they are all sold out, just saying that what you see on tv isn't true ticket sales numbers.
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LungButter
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1/20/2022 2:31pm
Let’s get rid of rear suspension- that’ll make timing & jump technique much more important and exciting.. If everyone is using it, then what’s the purpose...
Let’s get rid of rear suspension- that’ll make timing & jump technique much more important and exciting..
If everyone is using it, then what’s the purpose in having them?
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
5
1
1/20/2022 2:53pm
Let’s get rid of rear suspension- that’ll make timing & jump technique much more important and exciting.. If everyone is using it, then what’s the purpose...
Let’s get rid of rear suspension- that’ll make timing & jump technique much more important and exciting..
If everyone is using it, then what’s the purpose in having them?
LungButter wrote:
That's not even close to comparable. Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start...
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
I agree, but it may be too late to control ignition functions.
1
LungButter
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1/20/2022 2:58pm
I agree, but it may be too late to control ignition functions.
Agreed, but not being able to clamp the forks 2/3 of the way down would still bring some of the starting skill back instead of just being able to dump the clutch and go.
1
CPR
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1/20/2022 3:38pm
LungButter wrote:
That's not even close to comparable. Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start...
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
“ Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.”

Start devices make parody, not detract from it, just like metal start grates.
Getting rid of them mixes it up more.
1
NSP139
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1/20/2022 4:12pm
LungButter wrote:
That's not even close to comparable. Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start...
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
CPR wrote:
“ Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.” Start devices make parody, not detract from it, just like metal start...
“ Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.”

Start devices make parody, not detract from it, just like metal start grates.
Getting rid of them mixes it up more.
Maybe Tomac needs to get a better starting device because his is not working LOL! Obviously since a starting device makes the field equal lol!
4
JB 19
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1/20/2022 6:36pm
I actually think there could be a lot more done to the design of the bikes, as far as the shape, to let the riders incorporate even more leg and core strength in their riding. Then you would see these guys go even faster.
1
Hammer 663s
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1/20/2022 7:03pm
LungButter wrote:
That's not even close to comparable. Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start...
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
You and CPR want your racing funny or equal?

Hammer 663s
2
olderandYZer
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1/20/2022 7:46pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2022 7:52pm
Depends on what are you calling a "limit".

Size of a crowd? There is definatly room for growth. The stadiums are not as full as they once were. I thought Oakland looked bad on TV and I heard Stevo-O tweet that Feld probably gets a good deal on the stadium plus the monster trucks were there the week before, so a small crowd didn't hurt them much.

Old timers will tell you old Unadilla and the late 70's and 80's HI Point were much bigger crowds, looks wise anyhow, then today ( I hate those damn EZups blocking the view today) I personally think those crowd sizes I read in cycle news of 5k were for tax purposes. I remember at HI Point national in 1980, they announced like 5 k in cycle news. Someone check me on this in the cycle news archives. No way that could be true if that's what was stated. The reason? Saturday and Monday each day they had close to 1000 riders each day racing AM races. Back in the day you had one bike for each class hence most riders ran one class. Close to say,, 750 actual bodies that rode a bike that day.

At a National event, the and mom's, dad's, sisters, girlfreinds, grandma and aunts came out to spectatate. It was HI Point national,, an event! And they could see "the kid" ride the same weekend as the pros! There is an easy 3000 for an am day. Had to get more than 2000 for just Sunday. But that's my opinion. I don't have hard facts to back it up but I have good reasoning capabilities.

So yes, the ceiling hasn't been reached, attendance wise. Not even close. Sad part is, the powers that promote think bike sales will grow the sport. Heard it from the horses mouth when someone questioned it on Pulp MX . ( Actually a rep spoke up quickly and saved the day cause the promoter didn't have a clue and was caught off gaurd by the question). They haven't a clue.. Personalities grow the sport. Someone to identify with will grow the sport. Bike sales are like football sales. It's all good and all, but we go to football games because the people identify with a team or player and personal. Oh yeah, and rivalries and outspoken dudes too! (Calling Bob Hannah!) Not a football.

I am starting to believe the stories that the racing is just a marketing tool for manufactures........but that's another story in and of itself. 2 strokes come to mind ( whoops, I didn't day that)



Bike performance ? That's a whole different ball of wax. Bikes are good. Riders are good. Many more not getting lapped in the 450 this year. Wonder why.. I don't really have an answer to this one.

I think privateers are paid worse than in the 80's for all the work they put in tho.....
1
mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL US
1/20/2022 8:16pm
From a statistical perspective, 20-min long main events are long enough that it allows the field to sort itself out in a similar fashion each race. The cream rises to the top…..

When you look at lap pass charts from recent years, MOST, not all but most, of the passing is done by the 12th minute of the main. From minute 12 to 20, there is a significant reduction in the number of passes from the front of the field to the back of the field. Most guys are just coasting in the last few minutes trying to hold their position.

Shorter mains, 10 to 12 minutes, would shake things up drastically.
1
1
USA
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Fantasy
1/20/2022 8:41pm
LungButter wrote:
That's not even close to comparable. Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start...
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
You and CPR want your racing funny or equal?

Hammer 663s
Good thinking, make them all drive funny cars on the supercross tracks
Now that's parody
1
1/20/2022 11:00pm
Let’s get rid of rear suspension- that’ll make timing & jump technique much more important and exciting.. If everyone is using it, then what’s the purpose...
Let’s get rid of rear suspension- that’ll make timing & jump technique much more important and exciting..
If everyone is using it, then what’s the purpose in having them?
LungButter wrote:
That's not even close to comparable. Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start...
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
“Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....”

It could be argued that with todays advanced suspension, that all a rider has to do is point the bike and accelerate..

The point being that every technological advancement is making the job easier. Everyone has it so everyone benefits. Everything requires less skill.

But there’s still only ever one winner..
1
1/21/2022 2:45am
I wish there wasn’t any data,
No litpros, computer data etc, so the riders had to go completely from skill and feel..
I honestly think that’s why James Chad and Ricky were so far ahead, they were just better than everyone..
Now computers tell you what line to take what rhythm to do, when to back off the power etc
2
Hammer 663s
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Forest Grove, OR US
1/21/2022 7:54am
LungButter wrote:
That's not even close to comparable. Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start...
That's not even close to comparable.

Starting devices have done nothing but make the sport more boring, especially when coupled with the new ignitions with start maps and RPM lights and all that crap. Hold it pinned and time the gate drop is basically all they have to do these days....

Banning starting devices would add a lot more parody to the racing. Period.
You and CPR want your racing funny or equal?

Hammer 663s
USA wrote:
Good thinking, make them all drive funny cars on the supercross tracks
Now that's parody
Whew I was worried that no one got that.
gregyou
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AU
1/21/2022 2:40pm
I don’t find races being fun when they’re decided by the start,
1

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