AMA Petition for 144cc/ 300cc

Nairb#70
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Nairb#70 8/25/2021 5:35pm
8/25/2021 5:35pm Edited Date/Time 8/25/2021 5:36pm
I've always felt that a 2 cycle displacement in the neighborhood of 175cc would solve all the bitching. Square bore of course.
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spimx
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spimx 8/25/2021 5:37pm
8/25/2021 5:37pm
125 should just be a pro class on its own. 250 and 450 are almost running the same lap times now anyway.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/25/2021 5:52pm
8/25/2021 5:52pm
spimx wrote:
125 should just be a pro class on its own. 250 and 450 are almost running the same lap times now anyway.
Yeah,,not pro. Age limited. When everybody is a Pro, the importance is lost. Ride a 125 in the Open Pro class IMO if that's what you like.
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xrmark
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xrmark 8/25/2021 6:04pm
8/25/2021 6:04pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Yeah,,not pro. Age limited. When everybody is a Pro, the importance is lost. Ride a 125 in the Open Pro class IMO if that's what you...
Yeah,,not pro. Age limited. When everybody is a Pro, the importance is lost. Ride a 125 in the Open Pro class IMO if that's what you like.
You make zero sense. So mx2 isn’t a pro class according to you?
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burn1986
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burn1986 8/26/2021 1:00pm
8/26/2021 1:00pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2021 8:55pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Its two decades since the crf450 was released, along with the 2001 yzf250. Its really hard to fathom people are still bitching about 2 strokes. Just...
Its two decades since the crf450 was released, along with the 2001 yzf250. Its really hard to fathom people are still bitching about 2 strokes.

Just go buy a bike and go have fun.
burn1986 wrote:
Honda is sensitive about it and has threatened the promoters (in a way).
yak651 wrote:
Too bad we don't have a journalist that could question some higher ups at Honda and see if this is true or just a rumor. It's...
Too bad we don't have a journalist that could question some higher ups at Honda and see if this is true or just a rumor. It's always nice to have a scape goat to make your decisions easier...
Yep true.

I wish it wasn’t that way. It was decided around 2006 by DC, the AMA, and the industry management to not allow 2-strokes beyond the current displacements. No one really knows what went on in those meetings, but it was said that all the OEMs agreed.

As of today, the hope would be that KTM would have more influence and push for a higher displacement for 2-strokes, since they make them. But IMO I don’t ever see it happening.
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burn1986
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burn1986 8/26/2021 3:12pm
8/26/2021 3:12pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2021 3:13pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Your '87 in your icon is killing me, I wish I still had mine. Otherwise f**k Honda. Where are they gonna go?
I wish I still had my ‘87 (that’s not actually mine in the photo). Honda still has a lot of pull with the Nats, SX and worldwide. I, and all the people who signed the petition (well over 10K) wants DC and the AMA to change the rules to allow 2-strikes a higher displacement.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/26/2021 3:33pm
8/26/2021 3:33pm
burn1986 wrote:
I wish I still had my ‘87 (that’s not actually mine in the photo). Honda still has a lot of pull with the Nats, SX and...
I wish I still had my ‘87 (that’s not actually mine in the photo). Honda still has a lot of pull with the Nats, SX and worldwide. I, and all the people who signed the petition (well over 10K) wants DC and the AMA to change the rules to allow 2-strikes a higher displacement.
That's probably enough to get a Governor recalled, but not change anything in Moto.
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brettmx
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brettmx 8/26/2021 8:29pm
8/26/2021 8:29pm
DownSouth wrote:
I don't think 144/300 is quite enough to even the playing field with the 4 strokes.
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot factors, but most important how much different the HP is delivered across the RPM range. Although with fuel injection and ECU mapping creating smoother more controllable power is much more attainable. To compete against a 450 cc 4 stoke would you need a 326 like Eddie Sander Racing or 350 cc, 360?
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burn1986
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burn1986 8/26/2021 8:40pm
8/26/2021 8:40pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2021 9:02pm
DownSouth wrote:
I don't think 144/300 is quite enough to even the playing field with the 4 strokes.
brettmx wrote:
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot...
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot factors, but most important how much different the HP is delivered across the RPM range. Although with fuel injection and ECU mapping creating smoother more controllable power is much more attainable. To compete against a 450 cc 4 stoke would you need a 326 like Eddie Sander Racing or 350 cc, 360?
Well, it was rumored (back in ‘06) that increased displacement for 2-strokes was going to be allowed. The good thing to come out of this was the development of the 150 and 300cc 2-strokes.

I wish I could’ve heard what was said in those meetings that led the OEMs to believe this rule change was a real possibility.

It seems the Austrians and Euros were for it and begin developing bikes for it. It appears one of the major Japanese OEMs wasnt, and had to flex their muscles to squash it.

My guess - Honda was very opposed to it. Kawi and Suzuki went along with Honda. Yamaha was semi neutral. And KTM was for it.

I imagine that Honda told (or heavily implied/insinuated) to DC and the AMA that they could kiss their funding goodbye if they pursued it. so these are the rules we have today.
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JamesReed
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JamesReed 8/26/2021 8:46pm
8/26/2021 8:46pm
The success of the EMX class in Europe really highlights the AMA's stupidity and shortsightedness/ lack of vision IMO. It's crazy how the loss of two strokes has killed the core support of MX in the US, and how useless the AMA has been at addressing this issue.
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kiwifan
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kiwifan 8/26/2021 11:19pm
8/26/2021 11:19pm
DownSouth wrote:
I don't think 144/300 is quite enough to even the playing field with the 4 strokes.
brettmx wrote:
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot...
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot factors, but most important how much different the HP is delivered across the RPM range. Although with fuel injection and ECU mapping creating smoother more controllable power is much more attainable. To compete against a 450 cc 4 stoke would you need a 326 like Eddie Sander Racing or 350 cc, 360?
burn1986 wrote:
Well, it was rumored (back in ‘06) that increased displacement for 2-strokes was going to be allowed. The good thing to come out of this was...
Well, it was rumored (back in ‘06) that increased displacement for 2-strokes was going to be allowed. The good thing to come out of this was the development of the 150 and 300cc 2-strokes.

I wish I could’ve heard what was said in those meetings that led the OEMs to believe this rule change was a real possibility.

It seems the Austrians and Euros were for it and begin developing bikes for it. It appears one of the major Japanese OEMs wasnt, and had to flex their muscles to squash it.

My guess - Honda was very opposed to it. Kawi and Suzuki went along with Honda. Yamaha was semi neutral. And KTM was for it.

I imagine that Honda told (or heavily implied/insinuated) to DC and the AMA that they could kiss their funding goodbye if they pursued it. so these are the rules we have today.
so summing up all your posts you blame everything on Honda without actually knowing what really went on....classic vitard, and whats worse you state it like its fact. Funny still, you have a Honda on your profile pic.
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SilverSpurs
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SilverSpurs 8/27/2021 12:47am
8/27/2021 12:47am
DownSouth wrote:
I don't think 144/300 is quite enough to even the playing field with the 4 strokes.
brettmx wrote:
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot...
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot factors, but most important how much different the HP is delivered across the RPM range. Although with fuel injection and ECU mapping creating smoother more controllable power is much more attainable. To compete against a 450 cc 4 stoke would you need a 326 like Eddie Sander Racing or 350 cc, 360?
Race two strokes depend on harmonics, resonances to work, much more than 4 strokes. They are by definition restricted to a relatively narrow operating range. Counting the gear changes needed per lap between the two designs is also a tell.

Smokers also suffer from a few rpm of misfire when rolled off and then on- due to charge dilution by exhaust gasses. This makes them less responsive and reliable, especially on jump faces.

No less a rider than Ken Roczen explained this worrying aspect of his 2 stroke 250 Honda after he won RB straight rhythm.

For these reasons, at least in the upper echelons, the 4 strokes are superior.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/27/2021 6:40am
8/27/2021 6:40am Edited Date/Time 8/27/2021 6:43am
brettmx wrote:
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot...
I kind of wonder what the CC's would need to be to make a 2-stroke competitive against a 4-stroke power wise. Obviously there are a lot factors, but most important how much different the HP is delivered across the RPM range. Although with fuel injection and ECU mapping creating smoother more controllable power is much more attainable. To compete against a 450 cc 4 stoke would you need a 326 like Eddie Sander Racing or 350 cc, 360?
What is the point of scientific studies to compare power output? It's constantly changing anyway with updates. Electric just adds to the complexity. Race promoters are not scientists or fortune tellers or dyno operators.

Open class FTW.
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FahQ
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FahQ 8/27/2021 8:42am
8/27/2021 8:42am
I would love to see Renzland on a 250 two stroke!
Would also love to have a Gas Gas MC300 Factory Edition
But unfortunately we won’t see either
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