So are these private training facilities good for a racer?

CrashMaster01
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Growing up in the late 80’s thru the 90’s watching supercross and racing motocross and watching all my hero’s retire eventually. What I’ve been seeing with this new generation of racers that are growing up and graduating thru these private training facilities is that they are all similar nothing really seperatesvthem from each other. They all have the same style. I can understand these facilities can be good for running laps. But I guess my question is do they ever produce any champions? I see a lot of privateers riding at these places but never really seem to further their career. Then there’s the comment I heard RC and Fro talk about on their YouTube channel where RC pretty much says all these kids coming out of these facilities have no real race craft. They just run the same lap over and over. That can’t be great for your career. Reason I bring this up is from after watching the 250 main Orlando 2. In the first couple turns and jumps they didn’t seem to know what to do, it reminded me of some old C class races a free for all. So my question is are these facilities good for the racers racing career?
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2/20/2021 6:30pm
My answer is no. They producing drones that have zero race craft, follow one line and lack the ability to think outside the box. I can also add that none of them are particularly good at bike setup.

I won’t even get into how horribly they are trained physically.
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CG118
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2/20/2021 6:35pm
UpTiTe wrote:
My answer is no. They producing drones that have zero race craft, follow one line and lack the ability to think outside the box. I can...
My answer is no. They producing drones that have zero race craft, follow one line and lack the ability to think outside the box. I can also add that none of them are particularly good at bike setup.

I won’t even get into how horribly they are trained physically.
How are they trained? What do you not like? Cause I bet we might agree about some shit I’ve seen.
lestat
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2/20/2021 6:42pm
It seems like their entire focus these days is to “hit their marks” . This is great for running a qualifying time , not so great when racing in traffic . My answer to your question is no .
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mwssquad827
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2/20/2021 7:00pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2021 7:02pm
Nothing replaces racing... never been to a race facility nor am I even close to fast enough to relate but they all do look the same for the most part out there🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
Side note how cool was it in the 90’s when the pros would show up for a local money race... legit pros and a full gate of traveling privateers as well.. you would never get that nowadays...
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The Shop

tuttle425
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2/20/2021 7:14pm
Hard to learn racecraft when you race 4 times a year.
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2/20/2021 7:16pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2021 7:28pm
UpTiTe wrote:
My answer is no. They producing drones that have zero race craft, follow one line and lack the ability to think outside the box. I can...
My answer is no. They producing drones that have zero race craft, follow one line and lack the ability to think outside the box. I can also add that none of them are particularly good at bike setup.

I won’t even get into how horribly they are trained physically.
CG118 wrote:
How are they trained? What do you not like? Cause I bet we might agree about some shit I’ve seen.
I’m not going to say names, but one of them overtrained a prominent amateur and about ruined him. They don’t understand training, with proper rest, hydration and nutrition. Riding lap after lap in 105 degrees doesn’t do anything for a kid but hurt his body.
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Dirtysmile56
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2/23/2021 9:18am
Everyone raced far more than they ever practiced from the mid 80's into the late 90's in the Mid Atlantic Region Dist 6. Other than some blown out farm field practice tracks there wasn't much available. We raced though, every single weekend. Then I ended up in So Cal and became an absolute pro practicer lol. NowI hardly ever race and practicec all the time .....
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2/23/2021 10:09am
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro.

Always wondered why more Americans don't go and race in emx, seems a hell of a lot better than a training facility. But then what do I know.
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ben5020
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2/23/2021 2:42pm
I say they are amazing for kids to get to “their” next level. take northeast living for instance with all this snow we’ve had kids aren’t able to ride like those in the south at facility’s or just warm temps with tracks that you can ride at all the time. Will it make a fast kid a pro, that I can’t say but if they don’t race they surely miss a lot.
Braaaphole
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2/23/2021 5:34pm
The training facilities are there to coach them up and work on technique. No, all facilities are not the same and not all coaches are the same. The basics and fundamentals are, but each coach has their own approach and teaching methods. Some you connect better with.
I'll use the Masterpools as an example because my kid has trained there several times. When you show up, you have no idea what you're going to see that day. Mr Jerry gets up and cuts a new layout every single day. You don't know if you're going to ride the sand section, clay, combo of both, jumps, what corners, nothing. He keeps it fresh so you're not falling into the routine of burning up the same line every day. There's still sections of that place we haven't touched, it's huge.

The issue of race craft falls on the rider. These top kids don't race enough and that's what is causing the issue. They run the big amateur races and that's it. The factory kids are running the races they are told to race. Outside of those races, they don't seem to care to run anything else. I've never seen a coach tell their riders to not race and just work on technique for months at a time. Maybe they do, but I haven't seen it and my kid is nowhere near the level we are talking about. In my opinion, this isn't the facilities fault.

Now, with that said. Put yourself in the racers shoes. Say you're Levi Kitchen. If Levi came and ran all of the Texas Winter Series to work on his race craft, what would a racer of that caliber really gain? Yes the Texas winter series packs the gates pretty well, but there's not going to be any competition for Levi. Maybe 1 or 2 that can keep him honest for half a lap. Now look at the other smaller races, why would he even show up? He would just embarrass everyone on the gate with him.

Back in the day, I saw Kevin Windham at some local races. He would sit on the gate to let everyone go and fight through the pack. Even then, winning wasn't a challenge for him at all.
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EngIceDave
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2/23/2021 6:31pm
I'll be the unpopular guy on this, I'm used to it anyway.

They have their place in the world. They're not all bad.

The spread in talent and ability with these kids and the local kids is night and day. They show up to the local track and they'd race who? These guys will smoke everyone and they can't race for money for fear of losing eligibility, and they'd smoke the money class too.

The facilities offer the same as the nationals (in theory)....putting the best together and work em hard to improve them.

When MTF was pretty much the only game in town, that kind of held true, as many of the top riders went there.

Now there's a number of facilities, so a lot of the talent pool has been spread out. Now you only have one or two top guys at each place. That is bad.

I have often wondered why they haven't gotten together and acted like teams and set up team competitions. Have home and away races. Keep everyone sharp, few more gate drops and can be reported on the get the riders some publicity. Bragging rights between the places.
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DA498
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2/24/2021 5:31am
EngIceDave wrote:
I'll be the unpopular guy on this, I'm used to it anyway. They have their place in the world. They're not all bad. The spread in...
I'll be the unpopular guy on this, I'm used to it anyway.

They have their place in the world. They're not all bad.

The spread in talent and ability with these kids and the local kids is night and day. They show up to the local track and they'd race who? These guys will smoke everyone and they can't race for money for fear of losing eligibility, and they'd smoke the money class too.

The facilities offer the same as the nationals (in theory)....putting the best together and work em hard to improve them.

When MTF was pretty much the only game in town, that kind of held true, as many of the top riders went there.

Now there's a number of facilities, so a lot of the talent pool has been spread out. Now you only have one or two top guys at each place. That is bad.

I have often wondered why they haven't gotten together and acted like teams and set up team competitions. Have home and away races. Keep everyone sharp, few more gate drops and can be reported on the get the riders some publicity. Bragging rights between the places.
I like that idea of racing each other’s facility.
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8tensolutions
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2/24/2021 6:11am
Braaaphole wrote:
The training facilities are there to coach them up and work on technique. No, all facilities are not the same and not all coaches are the...
The training facilities are there to coach them up and work on technique. No, all facilities are not the same and not all coaches are the same. The basics and fundamentals are, but each coach has their own approach and teaching methods. Some you connect better with.
I'll use the Masterpools as an example because my kid has trained there several times. When you show up, you have no idea what you're going to see that day. Mr Jerry gets up and cuts a new layout every single day. You don't know if you're going to ride the sand section, clay, combo of both, jumps, what corners, nothing. He keeps it fresh so you're not falling into the routine of burning up the same line every day. There's still sections of that place we haven't touched, it's huge.

The issue of race craft falls on the rider. These top kids don't race enough and that's what is causing the issue. They run the big amateur races and that's it. The factory kids are running the races they are told to race. Outside of those races, they don't seem to care to run anything else. I've never seen a coach tell their riders to not race and just work on technique for months at a time. Maybe they do, but I haven't seen it and my kid is nowhere near the level we are talking about. In my opinion, this isn't the facilities fault.

Now, with that said. Put yourself in the racers shoes. Say you're Levi Kitchen. If Levi came and ran all of the Texas Winter Series to work on his race craft, what would a racer of that caliber really gain? Yes the Texas winter series packs the gates pretty well, but there's not going to be any competition for Levi. Maybe 1 or 2 that can keep him honest for half a lap. Now look at the other smaller races, why would he even show up? He would just embarrass everyone on the gate with him.

Back in the day, I saw Kevin Windham at some local races. He would sit on the gate to let everyone go and fight through the pack. Even then, winning wasn't a challenge for him at all.
I agree with this 100%. This was not any different before the facilities, but they gave the elite riders a place to go. Even at a local level in TN, the fast guys had nowhere to ride close by and the races were a joke for them. I am not sure what the answer is other than adding more regional level "big" races. If that happened, I believe the elite kids would go for sure, but you have to have promoters putting on the races.

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gt80rider
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2/24/2021 7:45am
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro. Always wondered...
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro.

Always wondered why more Americans don't go and race in emx, seems a hell of a lot better than a training facility. But then what do I know.
Better yet, why don't we have our own version??
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Johnny Depp
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2/24/2021 7:55am
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro. Always wondered...
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro.

Always wondered why more Americans don't go and race in emx, seems a hell of a lot better than a training facility. But then what do I know.
gt80rider wrote:
Better yet, why don't we have our own version??
^^ This
CrashMaster01
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2/24/2021 8:23am
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro. Always wondered...
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro.

Always wondered why more Americans don't go and race in emx, seems a hell of a lot better than a training facility. But then what do I know.
That’s a pretty good idea, if they could get enough American riders to out to Europe and race those classes, then the teams and sponsors could help them financially to get to Europe.
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CrashMaster01
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2/24/2021 8:25am
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro. Always wondered...
All while European kids have had hundreds of gate drops in emx 125 and 250 on GP tracks by the time they turn pro.

Always wondered why more Americans don't go and race in emx, seems a hell of a lot better than a training facility. But then what do I know.
gt80rider wrote:
Better yet, why don't we have our own version??
^^ This
We totally should, I don’t see why they couldn’t incorporate classes like those in Europe to the Nationals.
2/24/2021 8:52am
Like everyone has said, many of these kids would have no competition at local races. They train, go to qualifiers, regionals, Lorettas and a few other big races and that is it.

The facilities definitely help kids get faster and learn some skills, but how many truly ever make it past that, and make a living racing a motorcycle. My wife and I make a nice living, upper middle class, and I still don't see how many of these families do it financially. I know what their parents do for a living, and man you scratch your head at what they are spending on training facilities, bikes, etc for these kids.

I know many people that spend a ton on these facilities, when in all reality their kids are more like mine. Fast, but realistically will never make a living racing a motorcycle. And my kid practices around home and races a lot. At the end of the day, it is a hobby for him and I to get out and race.
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2/24/2021 10:37am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2021 10:37am
gt80rider wrote:
Better yet, why don't we have our own version??
I think everyone would love that, it would be so cool to have the equivalent of the emx classes run at the nationals. Probably have to return to 2 days though as the emx fits into a gp weekend by having a race on Saturday.
EngIceDave
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2/24/2021 10:48am
gt80rider wrote:
Better yet, why don't we have our own version??
I think everyone would love that, it would be so cool to have the equivalent of the emx classes run at the nationals. Probably have to...
I think everyone would love that, it would be so cool to have the equivalent of the emx classes run at the nationals. Probably have to return to 2 days though as the emx fits into a gp weekend by having a race on Saturday.


What might be interesting would be some Red Bull MX Cup like they do in road racing.

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Braaaphole
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2/24/2021 7:48pm
gt80rider wrote:
Better yet, why don't we have our own version??
I think everyone would love that, it would be so cool to have the equivalent of the emx classes run at the nationals. Probably have to...
I think everyone would love that, it would be so cool to have the equivalent of the emx classes run at the nationals. Probably have to return to 2 days though as the emx fits into a gp weekend by having a race on Saturday.
I think we were inching closer to that with the 125 all star races at the nationals until covid screwed everything up. Really hope they can bring them back this summer as they were really gaining popularity.
That coupled with the SX futures races are all things that build towards the end goal. Make them each a championship series that holds a little weight and the gates will pack up with talent.
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Braaaphole
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2/24/2021 8:02pm
Like everyone has said, many of these kids would have no competition at local races. They train, go to qualifiers, regionals, Lorettas and a few other...
Like everyone has said, many of these kids would have no competition at local races. They train, go to qualifiers, regionals, Lorettas and a few other big races and that is it.

The facilities definitely help kids get faster and learn some skills, but how many truly ever make it past that, and make a living racing a motorcycle. My wife and I make a nice living, upper middle class, and I still don't see how many of these families do it financially. I know what their parents do for a living, and man you scratch your head at what they are spending on training facilities, bikes, etc for these kids.

I know many people that spend a ton on these facilities, when in all reality their kids are more like mine. Fast, but realistically will never make a living racing a motorcycle. And my kid practices around home and races a lot. At the end of the day, it is a hobby for him and I to get out and race.
I'm right there with you on this. We are very fortunate and earn a great living. I spend a fortune on this sport for my kid and it's nothing compared to some others that I know.
I know some that have multiple kids that are at a facility 3-4 days per week, their kids have multiple bikes, they travel to every national that matters. They put a ton into it, but one kid did win a championship at Loretta's last year in one class and podium in the other. They are legit and work hard, but I honestly don't know how they afford it.

I could certainly cut back in other areas of life to allocate more to racing if I needed to, but to get to that level of spending upwards of $2k per month just on training would be hard on us. Then factor in bike maintenance, gas, race travel, entry fees, and everything else. I estimate that I spend $10k per year on racing, maintenance, training, really everything minus new bikes. Mitch Payton said to get a kid to the pro level, plan on spending $75-100k per year. Very few people can afford that and it would be a major lifestyle change for me to swing it.
EngIceDave
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2/25/2021 6:41am
DA498 wrote:
I like that idea of racing each other’s facility.
Be good for the consumer, "Which one do we send Johnny to? Which is best?"

Would only make everyone up their game, riders, trainers and compounds
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Stevo683
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2/25/2021 12:54pm
Nothing replaces racing... never been to a race facility nor am I even close to fast enough to relate but they all do look the same...
Nothing replaces racing... never been to a race facility nor am I even close to fast enough to relate but they all do look the same for the most part out there🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
Side note how cool was it in the 90’s when the pros would show up for a local money race... legit pros and a full gate of traveling privateers as well.. you would never get that nowadays...
I remember Jeromy Buehl, Nick Wey, Jeff Gibson, Stevie Childress, Jimmy Eickel and a full gate of local pros showing up to money races at Action Sports in Southern Ohio. Racing good dudes was the way you got better..and they made some money. Buehl had a Peak CR250.It was cool! Kids now are probably faster overall, but the race craft you learn from local races is what is missing IMO. How many local races a year do the rookies coming in like Robertson race these days? We became fans and rooted on the guys we would see at our local races when they hit the Nationals/Supercrosses.
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LungButter
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2/25/2021 2:06pm
Stevo683 wrote:
I remember Jeromy Buehl, Nick Wey, Jeff Gibson, Stevie Childress, Jimmy Eickel and a full gate of local pros showing up to money races at Action...
I remember Jeromy Buehl, Nick Wey, Jeff Gibson, Stevie Childress, Jimmy Eickel and a full gate of local pros showing up to money races at Action Sports in Southern Ohio. Racing good dudes was the way you got better..and they made some money. Buehl had a Peak CR250.It was cool! Kids now are probably faster overall, but the race craft you learn from local races is what is missing IMO. How many local races a year do the rookies coming in like Robertson race these days? We became fans and rooted on the guys we would see at our local races when they hit the Nationals/Supercrosses.
I'm with the other guys, how many local races would have competition for someone like Robertson?

Keep in mind, they cannot race in any "money classes" and keep their amateur status for Loretta's.
brocsdad
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2/25/2021 2:39pm
I feel the training camps do make a difference or can get the rider to the next level for sure. It’s really more about seat time and structured days than anything. There are several kids who went to live at compounds who have done really well. A perfect example is Nate Thrasher. He struggled on 65’s and then after a year or two of training he was competing on a National Level and now rides for Star Yamaha. Though he took it serious and put in the work.

Though for every success story there a kids who go and have a ton of natural talent but never make it to the next level. Not to mention these kids normally come from wealthy families and with that comes the privileged attitude. Girls, partying and heading down the wrong path is a fast way to kill your career and it happens a lot. They are basically living the life of a Rock Star until the parents realize little Johnny is not going to be the next RC.

As far as racing goes the compounds have killed the local racing scene. In the 90’s you would have several fast A and B riders showing up to battle and it would draw spectators and racers to the track. Now it seems you have a few local Pro’s and a handful of B riders. So, yes the compounds have hurt the local racing scene and turnout for sure. It makes it harder for the tracks to grow and prosper.

Though nothing stays the same and I can see more and more training compounds because that is where the money is.



2/25/2021 3:46pm
It definitely raises the bar of the average rider, but if you pair them with a kid/rider who has determination and is willing to send it then it's the same as it's always been, cream rises to the top.

While safer I do think these facilities do train the "send it" mindset out of these kids which kinda sucks.
JB 19
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2/25/2021 5:10pm Edited Date/Time 2/25/2021 6:46pm
Winter should be for training facilities and summer for racing. It's funny when people say, "if you're super fast there isn't anyone to race anyway, might as well just practice. " ...... well, I'd say that racing every weekend produced guys like Johnny O'mara, Ricky Johnson, Ron Lechien, David Bailey,, Jeff Ward, Jeff Stanton, Ricky Carmichael, James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, and Ryan Dungey. I wonder how they all managed to find someone to race. ..... and that's about where American motocross dominance ended.
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EngIceDave
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2/25/2021 5:12pm
I wish these compounds would work more on media training once they get to about 14. Need to get them used to talking on mic and talking on camera.

Bet that'd up little Johnny's pay potential
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CG118
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2/25/2021 7:55pm
JB 19 wrote:
Winter should be for training facilities and summer for racing. It's funny when people say, "if you're super fast there isn't anyone to race anyway, might...
Winter should be for training facilities and summer for racing. It's funny when people say, "if you're super fast there isn't anyone to race anyway, might as well just practice. " ...... well, I'd say that racing every weekend produced guys like Johnny O'mara, Ricky Johnson, Ron Lechien, David Bailey,, Jeff Ward, Jeff Stanton, Ricky Carmichael, James Stewart, Ryan Villopoto, and Ryan Dungey. I wonder how they all managed to find someone to race. ..... and that's about where American motocross dominance ended.
Damn good point.

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