Question for engine builders - 2018 KX450f

Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
So I'm finally getting into the engine of my bike. Was looking to do a CP piston w/ DLC pin matched with a Carillo rod.

Tokyo mods has this on their site and wanted to confirm fitment.

https://tokyomods.com/shop/engine-parts/engine-parts-pistons/cp-carrill…

Based on the link, it appears to be a long rod and that's what I'm going for.

Now my question is TM only lists it to fit up to 2015 model year, yet every manufacturer (including OEM) shows the same part#s for bike 2009-2017/2018.

This will work, right?

I punched the number into CP-Carillo's site and it appears to be the same. Just wanted to confirm.

Second question, what would a set of PC cams do for the bike? They were pretty vague when I called, so I'm curious if anyone has first hand experience with these?

Would a set of Hot Cams Stages 2 give a better power spread, maybe just keep it simple and stick a 2012 intake cam? Looking for more power but I want it spread and not concentrated into any one particular area.

Last question: Most likely going to do a set of valve springs as well. From a pure reliability standpoint... stick with stock valves or go Del West flat face with fresh oem seats?

If it matters, I'm going to send the crank off to get the rod installed after she's balanced and polished, probably going to get the transmission assembly cryo'd and REM finished.

Thanks, gents.
1
|
bvm111
Posts
10121
Joined
7/1/2008
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
12/28/2020 7:42am
did you call tokyo mods and ask?
3
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 8:37am
bvm111 wrote:
did you call tokyo mods and ask?
Shot them an email, was going to call Tuesday.

Just I’m never opposed to a second opinion on things. I made this because I’m mostly curious about the cams and just kind of threw the piston/rod question in there.
1
LKHill
Posts
851
Joined
9/8/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 9:01am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2020 9:07am
Have you got rid of that POS stock muffler yet? You will see more with mapping and a better can than a stock cam swap.
2
STLSharky
Posts
464
Joined
11/12/2016
Location
Edwardsville, IL, USA
12/28/2020 9:27am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2020 9:30am
Yeti831 wrote:
So I'm finally getting into the engine of my bike. Was looking to do a CP piston w/ DLC pin matched with a Carillo rod. Tokyo...
So I'm finally getting into the engine of my bike. Was looking to do a CP piston w/ DLC pin matched with a Carillo rod.

Tokyo mods has this on their site and wanted to confirm fitment.

https://tokyomods.com/shop/engine-parts/engine-parts-pistons/cp-carrill…

Based on the link, it appears to be a long rod and that's what I'm going for.

Now my question is TM only lists it to fit up to 2015 model year, yet every manufacturer (including OEM) shows the same part#s for bike 2009-2017/2018.

This will work, right?

I punched the number into CP-Carillo's site and it appears to be the same. Just wanted to confirm.

Second question, what would a set of PC cams do for the bike? They were pretty vague when I called, so I'm curious if anyone has first hand experience with these?

Would a set of Hot Cams Stages 2 give a better power spread, maybe just keep it simple and stick a 2012 intake cam? Looking for more power but I want it spread and not concentrated into any one particular area.

Last question: Most likely going to do a set of valve springs as well. From a pure reliability standpoint... stick with stock valves or go Del West flat face with fresh oem seats?

If it matters, I'm going to send the crank off to get the rod installed after she's balanced and polished, probably going to get the transmission assembly cryo'd and REM finished.

Thanks, gents.
Wait for TM to answer Squints

The Shop

Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 9:37am
LKHill wrote:
Have you got rid of that POS stock muffler yet? You will see more with mapping and a better can than a stock cam swap.
It’s either getting a ti PC or Akrapovic system.
1
1
LKHill
Posts
851
Joined
9/8/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 9:50am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2020 9:56am
Yeti831 wrote:
It’s either getting a ti PC or Akrapovic system.
My point is between an exhaust/remap(required to get most impressive results) and a tooth or two on the rear I doubt you would be looking for any more.
1
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 10:07am
LKHill wrote:
My point is between an exhaust/remap(required to get most impressive results) and a tooth or two on the rear I doubt you would be looking for...
My point is between an exhaust/remap(required to get most impressive results) and a tooth or two on the rear I doubt you would be looking for any more.
I rode this bike stock before tear down and had a relatively stock 2015 before. I am looking to really up the power and spread.

As far as mapping, just going to have Twisted Development do a few maps to take any hits or dips out of delivery and take out some of the decompression braking.

I get most people don’t want more power out of a 450, I’m not one of those people.

That’s kind of why I was asking about the cams and if they spread more power everywhere or if they would screw me by putting the power more in a particular area.
1
Adam43
Posts
3309
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
WF
12/28/2020 10:20am
I have used 13.5:1 09-15 CP Pistons in my '18s but there was no long rod kit involved.

Worked fine but I think the JE ran a bit stronger.

I would look into a remap or a Vortex before bothering with cams. TM can help you there also.

The stock valves are quite good..

Big fan of these bikes. Probably the most performance per dollar in the sport right now.
1
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 10:29am
Adam43 wrote:
I have used 13.5:1 09-15 CP Pistons in my '18s but there was no long rod kit involved. Worked fine but I think the JE ran...
I have used 13.5:1 09-15 CP Pistons in my '18s but there was no long rod kit involved.

Worked fine but I think the JE ran a bit stronger.

I would look into a remap or a Vortex before bothering with cams. TM can help you there also.

The stock valves are quite good..

Big fan of these bikes. Probably the most performance per dollar in the sport right now.
Awesome 👍

I only mentioned long rods because they supposedly put less load angle on the piston, which to me = less stress. Being that I’m bumping the compression, it didn’t seem like a bad thing to consider since I’m dropping the money on a forged rod regardless.

So stock valves and seats should be ok with stiffer valve springs? I would only do the springs if I don’t stick with stock or stock + ‘12 intake.

I agree though. I LOVE this motor, just would like more power everywhere.

My heart tells me cams would compliment everything else, my brain tells me I doubt I’d get the most out of it without porting the head.
1
LKHill
Posts
851
Joined
9/8/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 10:30am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2020 10:38am
Yeti831 wrote:
I rode this bike stock before tear down and had a relatively stock 2015 before. I am looking to really up the power and spread. As...
I rode this bike stock before tear down and had a relatively stock 2015 before. I am looking to really up the power and spread.

As far as mapping, just going to have Twisted Development do a few maps to take any hits or dips out of delivery and take out some of the decompression braking.

I get most people don’t want more power out of a 450, I’m not one of those people.

That’s kind of why I was asking about the cams and if they spread more power everywhere or if they would screw me by putting the power more in a particular area.
Well upping the power and spread is what the mods I suggested do. The muffler and mapping added bottom and top with a longer pull. Add 2 teeth on the back like I did to my bike after 1 ride and get back to me...

Cams can add power across the board but if i had to guess not so much without porting and other mods.

1
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 10:48am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2020 10:53am
Yeti831 wrote:
I rode this bike stock before tear down and had a relatively stock 2015 before. I am looking to really up the power and spread. As...
I rode this bike stock before tear down and had a relatively stock 2015 before. I am looking to really up the power and spread.

As far as mapping, just going to have Twisted Development do a few maps to take any hits or dips out of delivery and take out some of the decompression braking.

I get most people don’t want more power out of a 450, I’m not one of those people.

That’s kind of why I was asking about the cams and if they spread more power everywhere or if they would screw me by putting the power more in a particular area.
LKHill wrote:
Well upping the power and spread is what the mods I suggested do. The muffler and mapping added bottom and top with a longer pull. Add...
Well upping the power and spread is what the mods I suggested do. The muffler and mapping added bottom and top with a longer pull. Add 2 teeth on the back like I did to my bike after 1 ride and get back to me...

Cams can add power across the board but if i had to guess not so much without porting and other mods.

Definitely see what you mean and I guess that’s a big part of the question I left out: with a 13.5 piston and PC exhaust and vortex, would I still get the most out of a cam set without porting the head (which I have zero intention of doing. The idea being that if I yard sale the engine, I have hard parts I can swap over to a stock head w/o it being mapped for special porting).

I guess in terms of cams, the bigger question is: how do PC and HC Stage 2s compare to a ‘12 intake cam with oem exhaust?
1
LKHill
Posts
851
Joined
9/8/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 11:00am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2020 11:06am
That sounds like a great set-up. I would skip the cams.
HC is a very slight increase over stock and PC would be like a stage 2.5 HC. You would not even notice the '12 cam IMHO.
1
1
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 11:19am
LKHill wrote:
That sounds like a great set-up. I would skip the cams. HC is a very slight increase over stock and PC would be like a stage...
That sounds like a great set-up. I would skip the cams.
HC is a very slight increase over stock and PC would be like a stage 2.5 HC. You would not even notice the '12 cam IMHO.
Thanks for input, dude 👍

I like hearing opinions on stuff like that, it’d be a very expensive mistake if I didn’t like them.

I had a ‘12 cam in my 2015 but the previous owner installed it so I didn’t have a stock feel comparison like I would with this.

1
1
LKHill
Posts
851
Joined
9/8/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 11:37am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2020 11:38am
Yeti831 wrote:
Thanks for input, dude 👍 I like hearing opinions on stuff like that, it’d be a very expensive mistake if I didn’t like them. I had...
Thanks for input, dude 👍

I like hearing opinions on stuff like that, it’d be a very expensive mistake if I didn’t like them.

I had a ‘12 cam in my 2015 but the previous owner installed it so I didn’t have a stock feel comparison like I would with this.

I am sure you would like them but do you need them?

I don't see these engines needing more cam for 99.5% of riders. The power difference between years comes more down to intake/exhaust and ECU. A vortex from TD will do more than cams and the bike needs remapped bone stock.
2
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 11:45am
Yeti831 wrote:
Thanks for input, dude 👍 I like hearing opinions on stuff like that, it’d be a very expensive mistake if I didn’t like them. I had...
Thanks for input, dude 👍

I like hearing opinions on stuff like that, it’d be a very expensive mistake if I didn’t like them.

I had a ‘12 cam in my 2015 but the previous owner installed it so I didn’t have a stock feel comparison like I would with this.

LKHill wrote:
I am sure you would like them but do you need them? I don't see these engines needing more cam for 99.5% of riders. The power...
I am sure you would like them but do you need them?

I don't see these engines needing more cam for 99.5% of riders. The power difference between years comes more down to intake/exhaust and ECU. A vortex from TD will do more than cams and the bike needs remapped bone stock.
It’s more want than need but I do get your point. Seems the best thing would be to get the piston/rod/ignition, play with the maps then consider those if I feel it’s lacking somewhere.
1
WEAL
Posts
169
Joined
11/6/2018
Location
DE
12/28/2020 12:09pm
The long rod is for longer dwell around TDC.If wheels are still pressed on the cams change your cam timing in small increments to find overall best. If you change overlap you can shift the power curve a bit and find the best set-up for your exhaust.
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/28/2020 12:16pm
WEAL wrote:
The long rod is for longer dwell around TDC.If wheels are still pressed on the cams change your cam timing in small increments to find overall...
The long rod is for longer dwell around TDC.If wheels are still pressed on the cams change your cam timing in small increments to find overall best. If you change overlap you can shift the power curve a bit and find the best set-up for your exhaust.
So should I avoid the long rod? I was going that route purely from a “reliability/less stress on the motor” standpoint.
1
omalley
Posts
1528
Joined
7/27/2016
Location
Snohomish, WA, USA
12/28/2020 12:26pm
I’m a semi-fat over 40 B/C rider, so take this for what it’s worth.

On my ‘18 I did a PC T-6 full system and a remap from Tokyo Mods-otherwise stock. The pipe and remap totally filled in the soft spots, and that’s with a pump gas tune. I’m guessing a race fuel tune would see even bigger gains.

Between the pipe and remap, I can’t see wanting anything more. I also short-shift and use the bottom end torque. I never found the bike lacking (only my own skill, lol).

One key is to pull the end cap restriction that comes on the T-6 (not sure on the Ti-6)...night and day difference in pull off the bottom.
1
12/28/2020 12:52pm
i think you should go with the 12 intake cam, that will be some cheap punch down low
2
ianhendry46
Posts
394
Joined
8/18/2011
Location
Murfreesboro, TN, USA
12/29/2020 8:20pm
I’ve had one that had high compression piston, stage 2 cams, light porting, and a good map. That bike was incredible.
I would not do the long rod.
As far as the valve train, if the del west caves are in the budget, do them, they are really good. But if you don’t do any porting, I’m afraid it would be for nothing.
In the modern bikes, a lot of power cam be made in the head. Just depends on what you want to do. I would recommend calling your preferred engine builder and letting them know what you’re looking for. They can and will give you what you want.
1
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/29/2020 8:43pm
I’ve had one that had high compression piston, stage 2 cams, light porting, and a good map. That bike was incredible. I would not do the...
I’ve had one that had high compression piston, stage 2 cams, light porting, and a good map. That bike was incredible.
I would not do the long rod.
As far as the valve train, if the del west caves are in the budget, do them, they are really good. But if you don’t do any porting, I’m afraid it would be for nothing.
In the modern bikes, a lot of power cam be made in the head. Just depends on what you want to do. I would recommend calling your preferred engine builder and letting them know what you’re looking for. They can and will give you what you want.
Yeah, I have zero intentions of doing any porting. I want to keep it all bolt on besides the mapping.

Despite the downvotes that don’t want to add to the conversation, I do appreciate the info you guys are giving and I’m thankful for it 👍👍👍
1
1
BobPA
Posts
8331
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
USA
12/29/2020 9:08pm
Bump that compression up and run some oxygenated fuel.....
1
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/29/2020 10:11pm
BobPA wrote:
Bump that compression up and run some oxygenated fuel.....
Based on another thread someone made about VPR, going to give that a run once built. The CP kit I'm going with is 13.5:1 which isn't terribly much over the stock 12.8:1 but it's not like VPR is much off C12 or T4 in price.
1
spimx
Posts
1311
Joined
3/25/2019
Location
Port Isabel, TX, USA
12/30/2020 9:34am
Hey man please let us know. I also have an 18 kx 450 and I would love to bolt on a 2012 intake cam.
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/30/2020 10:59am
spimx wrote:
Hey man please let us know. I also have an 18 kx 450 and I would love to bolt on a 2012 intake cam.
The Carllio rod/piston has a 20 week back order according to TokyoMods, so it’ll be a hot minute but I will be doing a full build breakdown and ride review once she’s built.

It’s borderline retarded what I’m going to be putting into this thing but it’s something I’ve always wanted to do.

Once everything is 100%, I’ll do up a thread in the bike build section👍
1
1
mshea397
Posts
154
Joined
12/18/2018
Location
Prior Lake, MN, USA
Fantasy
12/30/2020 11:28am
I can relate to the border line retarded comment -- i have a 2019 that I am in the middle of a rebuild on: CP14:1 piston, Vortex ECU, porting and ProCircuit cams. I'll be running ETS Extrablaze 100 fuel. I plan to dominate +55 novice open practice days. Same as you, it's something I always wanted to do.
1
Yeti831
Posts
1348
Joined
1/30/2020
Location
USA
12/30/2020 1:40pm
mshea397 wrote:
I can relate to the border line retarded comment -- i have a 2019 that I am in the middle of a rebuild on: CP14:1 piston...
I can relate to the border line retarded comment -- i have a 2019 that I am in the middle of a rebuild on: CP14:1 piston, Vortex ECU, porting and ProCircuit cams. I'll be running ETS Extrablaze 100 fuel. I plan to dominate +55 novice open practice days. Same as you, it's something I always wanted to do.
You only live once, right? I’m right there with you.

To everyone who chimed in with advice, thank you very much for your input.
usp4u
Posts
587
Joined
3/25/2011
Location
Karns City, PA, USA
12/30/2020 1:42pm Edited Date/Time 12/30/2020 1:44pm
Yeti831 wrote:
So should I avoid the long rod? I was going that route purely from a “reliability/less stress on the motor” standpoint.
The rod is not going to anything appreciable for reliability. If it would, the OE would've used it.


The reason they don't is because the longer rod requires the pin to be moved higher in the piston. The reduction in compression height (the distance from the centerline of the pin to the top of the piston) is reduced. This necessitates at best the ring pack is squished even closer together ( adding more possibility of piston rock) or getting the pin up into the oil ring allowing less support to the oil ring and less chance of the oil ring to maintain control. The additional dwell time gives a miniscule change in power production that is barely even measurable.

Rod length/rod ratio has been argued ad nausem in the hot rod world for years and the final word is that it dosent really matter.
2

Post a reply to: Question for engine builders - 2018 KX450f

The Latest