New AMA Rule for amateur competition

EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/15/2020 10:08am
12/15/2020 10:08am
brian9 wrote:
I think this opens the door for innovation. A while back someone made a goggle with a tiny lens mounted in it. They discontinued and went...
I think this opens the door for innovation. A while back someone made a goggle with a tiny lens mounted in it. They discontinued and went on to build body cameras for the military. I tried it and it worked great. The only gripe was that I could not use my goggle of choice.

Imagine if GoPro made something where you could velcro the lens to your goggles and a few wires connected to it a battery and an ssd which mounted to the goggle strap.

Helmets could be redesigned to incorporate such a tiny lens. There's a lot of things which could be done. I'm looking forward to the next new thing.
There are pen and even pin sized cameras,

The problem is the internal stabilization stuff, takes up space
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JM485
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JM485 12/15/2020 10:28am
12/15/2020 10:28am
kage173 wrote:
AMA thank you for doing you job to recognize patterns of preventable injuries across the country and writing rules that effectively reduce those injuries to make...
AMA thank you for doing you job to recognize patterns of preventable injuries across the country and writing rules that effectively reduce those injuries to make me and my family safer. That's what I pay you for.
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not, nobody is forcing anybody to wear a helmet cam on their helmet so if you already choose not to this makes no difference at all.

I’ve also yet to see any concrete evidence that helmet cams have had any effect on injuries besides anecdotal stories that may or may not have any validity to them. As far as I’m concerned this is a 100% personal choice, if someone wants to add a fin or helmet cam to their helmet then let them, it effects nobody but themselves. I choose to run mine under my visor so this is pretty much a mute point for me anyways.

There are also flexible and break-away options when it comes to helmet fins. The ones I sell are made from an extremely flexible material with thin walls and pose absolutely no risk of complicating a crash, so should mine really be outlawed? I’ve also seen the ones that Motofin Co. produces, they are also very thin and would easily break away in a crash. Basically it’s just two different solutions to a common problem, but nonetheless neither poses any safety risk.


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Falcon
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Falcon 12/15/2020 10:57am
12/15/2020 10:57am
JM485, it may be your personal choice, but if I write a rule prohibiting something and you choose to ignore the rule, then you have essentially waived your right to sue me. I'm sure it isn't that simple, but it sure makes it easier on me in a courtroom, I'd bet.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/15/2020 11:31am
12/15/2020 11:31am
It gives reason to tell you to pound sand from my track

My way or the highway
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Hrzk75
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Hrzk75 12/15/2020 2:03pm
12/15/2020 2:03pm
its not the camera that is a danger on the helmet, it is the mount.
when your camera breaks off, your mount is still there and can be pushed into the helmet.
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Donkey Kong 12/15/2020 5:16pm
12/15/2020 5:16pm
Is this rule only for supercross?
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/15/2020 6:30pm
12/15/2020 6:30pm
Donkey Kong wrote:
Is this rule only for supercross?
AMA Amateur Racing

As of now
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KTMmarkus 12/16/2020 6:48am
12/16/2020 6:48am
Hrzk75 wrote:
its not the camera that is a danger on the helmet, it is the mount. when your camera breaks off, your mount is still there and...
its not the camera that is a danger on the helmet, it is the mount.
when your camera breaks off, your mount is still there and can be pushed into the helmet.
Exactly. And it is a point that can "grab" onto the ground and prevent your head from rotating.
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 12/16/2020 7:00am
12/16/2020 7:00am
EngIceDave wrote:
Know why there is no standard or maximum distance a jump or triple can be in any book? So it's never in writing. Once you put...
Know why there is no standard or maximum distance a jump or triple can be in any book?

So it's never in writing.

Once you put it in writing, it's official and every lawyer will be standing trackside with tape measures.



mx317 wrote:
I was an AMA ref at one point. We had to attend risk management training to go over policies that would help you win in a...
I was an AMA ref at one point. We had to attend risk management training to go over policies that would help you win in a lawsuit. At that time I was told that no AMA track has lost a lawsuit that followed the rulebook and guidelines the AMA implemented. I remember them telling me if someone got hurt on a section of track, don't remove it or change it beyond normal grooming that day. They said it would show there was something wrong with the section and a lawyer could argue "Why did you change it if it was safe".
EngIceDave wrote:
That is exactly correct

Even moving corners, jumps or cutting down a tree has to be looked at now days
Subsequent remedial measures are generally not admissible in court. We want people to fix known hazards without worrying about an admission of liability.
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Holigan
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Holigan 12/16/2020 8:40am
12/16/2020 8:40am
Holigan wrote:
Michael Schmacher brain injury
Donkey Kong wrote:
A ski helmet and a moto helmet are not the same at all
All helmets are round to spread the force of impact. When you attach something to a helmet and it is part of the impact, the primary force is no longer spread over the helmet. It is now centered at the point of attachment which is exactly what helmet manufacturers do not want.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/16/2020 9:00am
12/16/2020 9:00am
Every helmet maker tells you not to modify the helmet.

Gluing a mount to it does exactly that
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lostboy819 12/16/2020 10:49am
12/16/2020 10:49am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2020 12:53pm
Holigan wrote:
Michael Schmacher brain injury
Donkey Kong wrote:
A ski helmet and a moto helmet are not the same at all
Holigan wrote:
All helmets are round to spread the force of impact. When you attach something to a helmet and it is part of the impact, the primary...
All helmets are round to spread the force of impact. When you attach something to a helmet and it is part of the impact, the primary force is no longer spread over the helmet. It is now centered at the point of attachment which is exactly what helmet manufacturers do not want.
The Schmacher story is not the best example because most everything in the story is speculation and may point away from the gopro other than his son placing blame. I for one find it hard to believe that if the gopro was not damaged then I doubt that the mount was the cause of his injury, but also a ski helmet outer shell is not near as tough as a motorcycle helmet either so my opinion is from the very limited public information I have read which isn't much.

I do agree with the new rule to not allow for things like that to be mounted to helmets and if there is even a small chance of these making a injury worse then lets go with the side of caution, and with Schmacher with all the secrecy we will never know what was the cause or even his current condition, they did have a small story the last few weeks about Doctors doing a procedure to help him return to a "more normal life" what ever that means.

The worst part of the whole story is that arguably the best drive F1 driver ever in one of the most dangerous motorsports, retires and is done in by a freak skiing accident. I am a die hard F1 Ferrari fan also so this year has been tough.
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crf250pilot
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crf250pilot 12/16/2020 2:17pm
12/16/2020 2:17pm
Alex.434 wrote:
You guys know they make chest mounts right? Non-issue really. Easter egg: that's the Vital MX RMZ450 w/Cone Valves in front of me. Braapt. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/12/14/465402/s1200_Capture.jpg[/img]
You guys know they make chest mounts right? Non-issue really. Easter egg: that's the Vital MX RMZ450 w/Cone Valves in front of me. Braapt.



All the chest cam vids i've seen make the riders arms look like those wacky wavy inflatable tube guys
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Yeti831
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Yeti831 12/16/2020 2:31pm
12/16/2020 2:31pm
So as a few people have mentioned, does that mean visor mounts are still a go since it’s not attached to the actual helmet and can break away in a crash?
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TooTallJason
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TooTallJason 12/16/2020 3:10pm
12/16/2020 3:10pm
Donkey Kong wrote:
A ski helmet and a moto helmet are not the same at all
Holigan wrote:
All helmets are round to spread the force of impact. When you attach something to a helmet and it is part of the impact, the primary...
All helmets are round to spread the force of impact. When you attach something to a helmet and it is part of the impact, the primary force is no longer spread over the helmet. It is now centered at the point of attachment which is exactly what helmet manufacturers do not want.
lostboy819 wrote:
The Schmacher story is not the best example because most everything in the story is speculation and may point away from the gopro other than his...
The Schmacher story is not the best example because most everything in the story is speculation and may point away from the gopro other than his son placing blame. I for one find it hard to believe that if the gopro was not damaged then I doubt that the mount was the cause of his injury, but also a ski helmet outer shell is not near as tough as a motorcycle helmet either so my opinion is from the very limited public information I have read which isn't much.

I do agree with the new rule to not allow for things like that to be mounted to helmets and if there is even a small chance of these making a injury worse then lets go with the side of caution, and with Schmacher with all the secrecy we will never know what was the cause or even his current condition, they did have a small story the last few weeks about Doctors doing a procedure to help him return to a "more normal life" what ever that means.

The worst part of the whole story is that arguably the best drive F1 driver ever in one of the most dangerous motorsports, retires and is done in by a freak skiing accident. I am a die hard F1 Ferrari fan also so this year has been tough.
I would disagree with your point about the GoPro being in fine condition. I've seen videos of GoPros dropped from planes to the ground and survive, whereas humans are not so capable.
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DaveB771
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DaveB771 12/16/2020 3:14pm
12/16/2020 3:14pm
No one has speculated that this was mandated by the insurance company?
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/16/2020 3:27pm
12/16/2020 3:27pm
Yeti831 wrote:
So as a few people have mentioned, does that mean visor mounts are still a go since it’s not attached to the actual helmet and can...
So as a few people have mentioned, does that mean visor mounts are still a go since it’s not attached to the actual helmet and can break away in a crash?
If it was my call, yes, because the visor is not the helmet and a visor requires zero government testing or approval.
bigk218
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bigk218 12/16/2020 6:27pm
12/16/2020 6:27pm

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silver753
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silver753 12/16/2020 7:33pm
12/16/2020 7:33pm
If you read Arai helmet literature, it talks about having a round shell with no protruding edges, so it won't catch or grab the ground as you're skidding, rolling or flopping across the ground. This applies to street and dirt. I'm guessing it's more a safety issue, sort of like the Fox helmets with a magnetic visor instead of screws.

What's with the conspiracy guys? Damn. Take the most basic issue and twist it and turn it into something crazy.
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yak651
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yak651 12/17/2020 6:32am
12/17/2020 6:32am
AMA - spend major $$$ to fight helmet laws....at the same time pass rules to ban helmet cams Laughing
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MyBobbym
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MyBobbym 12/17/2020 9:55am
12/17/2020 9:55am
DonM wrote:
This has me so upset that I won’t be able to watch endless videos of someone’s front fender....all kidding aside its a good move to take...
This has me so upset that I won’t be able to watch endless videos of someone’s front fender....all kidding aside its a good move to take the cameras off the helmet. DeCoster made the mounts for the fender which is the view that Deegan has been using recently...
Damn, just got mine setup finally.
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NITRODOG
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NITRODOG 12/17/2020 1:35pm
12/17/2020 1:35pm
I cant believe they are taking away your god given/constitutional right to have a Helmet Cam! But then again, I remember when you would get tackled if you went in to a bank with a mask on...now you get tackled if you walk in without one on!
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Brent
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Brent 12/17/2020 2:05pm
12/17/2020 2:05pm Edited Date/Time 12/17/2020 2:07pm
The KTM, Gas Gas, and Husqvarna Pro MX and SX team riders are also not allowed to place go Pro Cameras on top of their helmets. Chest mount is allowed.
EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/17/2020 2:16pm
12/17/2020 2:16pm
Brent wrote:
The KTM, Gas Gas, and Husqvarna Pro MX and SX team riders are also not allowed to place go Pro Cameras on top of their helmets...
The KTM, Gas Gas, and Husqvarna Pro MX and SX team riders are also not allowed to place go Pro Cameras on top of their helmets. Chest mount is allowed.
Darn Euro's taking away our rights!
Brent
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Brent 12/17/2020 2:27pm
12/17/2020 2:27pm
Brent wrote:
The KTM, Gas Gas, and Husqvarna Pro MX and SX team riders are also not allowed to place go Pro Cameras on top of their helmets...
The KTM, Gas Gas, and Husqvarna Pro MX and SX team riders are also not allowed to place go Pro Cameras on top of their helmets. Chest mount is allowed.
EngIceDave wrote:
Darn Euro's taking away our rights!
Roger DeCoster is technically a "Euro", so I guess you are right. It's his rule.

According to a team member, the riders don't like the new rule because the chest mount is a not very good for supercross video. I guess they made some new GoPro bike mounts but I haven't seen the video from them yet.
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mfd1068
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mfd1068 12/17/2020 3:13pm
12/17/2020 3:13pm
I can guarantee you there is an Insurance company behind this.
GuyB
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GuyB 12/17/2020 4:29pm
12/17/2020 4:29pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Ok nobody has answered the question what exactly is this meant to prevent or help?? Because if you crash hard enough the gopro breaks off or...
Ok nobody has answered the question what exactly is this meant to prevent or help??
Because if you crash hard enough the gopro breaks off or tilts, i experienced this recently. And mine bent and shutoff upon impact.

How does mounting a 3m sticky thing on the outside of the helmet mess with the integrity of the helmet? Does this mean the helmet was inferior before attaching the gopro.

What are the mounting alternatives? Chest mounts are not going to work with a chest protector. Has anybody created one?

Or

Is this to stop people from monitizing their own content out at the amateur races because the ama does not get any profit from that.

Something is very very afoul with this rule change, and no answers are given.....

Why dont people say we did this because of this and this is the alternative.. because from my point of view, this has something to do with money and or content being put out that somebody doesn't like or cant make money from.

Rarely is it safety because they still haven't mandated basic safety equipment like a got damn chest protector.
I saw an instance last year where a GoPro didn't break off. Instead, it was embedded into the top of the shell of the helmet that the rider was wearing.

There's a very good reason why some teams have moved them off the helmet, and won't let their riders mount them on there. I think this change may be a result of that. I haven't seen a rulebook for next year's SX or MX seasons. I wouldn't be shocked to see something similar on the pro side.

I do enjoy helmet cam footage and mentioned earlier in the year that it would be nice to see a different form factor that would allow it to more easily be mounted under a visor (which I also think provides the most realistic view).
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Spudnut
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Spudnut 12/17/2020 6:39pm
12/17/2020 6:39pm
Donkey Kong wrote:
Is this rule only for supercross?
EngIceDave wrote:
AMA Amateur Racing

As of now
So It Just effects outside supercross for now
EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/17/2020 6:56pm
12/17/2020 6:56pm
Donkey Kong wrote:
Is this rule only for supercross?
EngIceDave wrote:
AMA Amateur Racing

As of now
Spudnut wrote:
So It Just effects outside supercross for now
All AMA amateur racing
Motodave15
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Motodave15 12/17/2020 8:53pm
12/17/2020 8:53pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Ok nobody has answered the question what exactly is this meant to prevent or help?? Because if you crash hard enough the gopro breaks off or...
Ok nobody has answered the question what exactly is this meant to prevent or help??
Because if you crash hard enough the gopro breaks off or tilts, i experienced this recently. And mine bent and shutoff upon impact.

How does mounting a 3m sticky thing on the outside of the helmet mess with the integrity of the helmet? Does this mean the helmet was inferior before attaching the gopro.

What are the mounting alternatives? Chest mounts are not going to work with a chest protector. Has anybody created one?

Or

Is this to stop people from monitizing their own content out at the amateur races because the ama does not get any profit from that.

Something is very very afoul with this rule change, and no answers are given.....

Why dont people say we did this because of this and this is the alternative.. because from my point of view, this has something to do with money and or content being put out that somebody doesn't like or cant make money from.

Rarely is it safety because they still haven't mandated basic safety equipment like a got damn chest protector.
GuyB wrote:
I saw an instance last year where a GoPro didn't break off. Instead, it was embedded into the top of the shell of the helmet that...
I saw an instance last year where a GoPro didn't break off. Instead, it was embedded into the top of the shell of the helmet that the rider was wearing.

There's a very good reason why some teams have moved them off the helmet, and won't let their riders mount them on there. I think this change may be a result of that. I haven't seen a rulebook for next year's SX or MX seasons. I wouldn't be shocked to see something similar on the pro side.

I do enjoy helmet cam footage and mentioned earlier in the year that it would be nice to see a different form factor that would allow it to more easily be mounted under a visor (which I also think provides the most realistic view).
Thankyou for an answer that makes sense! Glad to read its not about $$
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