Austrian model in Japan - Suzuki

Bruce372
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11/17/2020 2:24pm
Does anyone actually believe in a normal season that suzuki could win a moto gp title with a guy average qualifying in 8th or 9th winning only one race in a season?
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bestmx
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11/17/2020 2:32pm
?? It’s already happened - hence the Suzuki Kawasaki in my initial post.

If it’s that stupid, why do we see Volkswagen take over the car industry, why do we see KTM taking on these other brands?

In the UK we can get the same van with a Vauxhall badge, a Renault badge or a Nissan badge... You guys can buy a Mercedes sprinter with a Dodge badge.

How many cars out there have the same engine/ chassis with a different body and badge slapped on them?

That’s the point I’m making.

It’s cost effective.

Cheaper from an R&D point of view for both parties, cheaper to produce and consequently cheaper for the end consumer.

Yet, the lack of business knowledge is weak. The motocross industry is feeble minded and has no common sense... From a feeble minded dinosaur who can’t see that KTMs method definitely has a lot of pro’s as opposed to cons?

Suzuki have a bike that going by the forum is unanimously hated, why not reach out and slap yellow plastic on a better bike??

Look at the GasGas this year- few cheaper parts here and there, and ultimately KTM then have the entire market covered in terms of price point.

But you’re definitely the business man- “let’s not invest anything into our bikes, not sell any as they’re far behind the other bikes, fail to support professional teams as we don’t have the income and see how that goes..”
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bestmx
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11/17/2020 2:40pm
bestmx wrote:
Something I’ve thought about for about as long as Suzuki kept their last bikes going without update, but with the recent news of JGR having to...
Something I’ve thought about for about as long as Suzuki kept their last bikes going without update, but with the recent news of JGR having to close it’s doors as Suzuki couldn’t offer them an acceptable amount to go racing, along with the loss of long time Suzuki people such as RC and the firing of their R&D dept etc I don’t think it could be more relevant..

Have any of the other Japanese manufacturers considered taking on the Suzuki, as per KTM with Husky and now GasGas? (Yellow plastics on a.....)

To me, KTM’s model clearly works and will continue to work. Could another OEM jump on this band wagon?

No way saying the Suzuki is a bad bike by any means, but the bikes aren’t even being featured in shootouts anymore so the only press they’re getting is from Goonrider886 joking about their lack of e-start on this forum.

With their Moto GP success, they must want to win, but this doesn’t appear to trickle down to our sport. I’m looking at like, there’s a shortage of bikes, they have a factory sitting there making surplus bikes, why not see if a deal can be made to get them back on their feet, or if they can even sell their Motocross side of industry off and have the brand represented on a different bike?

Suzuki will get good representation, the other OEM will get another factory manufacturing bikes. Seams like a win-win, no?
RMT wrote:
Yes, lets have another color KTM! This is getting ridiculous.

Can you read?

“ Have any of the other Japanese manufacturers considered taking on the Suzuki, as per KTM with Husky and now GasGas? (Yellow plastics on a.....)

To me, KTM’s model clearly works and will continue to work. Could another OEM jump on this band wagon? ”

Where in that does it say a Yellow KTM, KTM to buy Suzuki or anything even close?

I’m suggesting that another Japanese OEM take a good look at what KTM are doing - 1 base platform, x amount of logos/ colours.

Let’s say if Honda were to make a deal with their bikes. Slap some different designed yellow plastic, cheaper components on it and market it at a cheaper price point, you’d see a ton of them.
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RCMXracing
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11/17/2020 4:03pm
It’s an amazing bit of human psychology how the motocross community wants to “save” a multi billion dollar company, “save” the sport, etc.

Suzuki is the rescue dog of motocross.

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deluxeman
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11/17/2020 5:53pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Does anyone actually believe in a normal season that suzuki could win a moto gp title with a guy average qualifying in 8th or 9th winning...
Does anyone actually believe in a normal season that suzuki could win a moto gp title with a guy average qualifying in 8th or 9th winning only one race in a season?
With Marquez going down early it left the field wide open. Nobody stepped up and wanted to win the damn thing. The Yamaha boys couldn’t seem to go from qualifying to racing on Sunday enough times to make a dent. Suzuki spent lots of money to get their bike much better. The chassis is simply the best in the paddock. They lack power but they keep the tires under them longer that any other bike on the track. The Suzuki isn’t a good qualifier because it lacks outright speed on the straights. Their launch control is great and Mir and Rins are elite level riders.

You only race the guys on the track. Mir was scored the most points and wrapped it up one race early. What is there to say except congratulations Suzuki for 2 bikes in the top three in points.

Oh yeah Vinales average qualifying was about 2nd. That man is fast on Saturday, his average race finish was about 6th. Should Vinales have been crowned Champion because he is a great qualifier?
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11/17/2020 6:45pm
I didn't read through this thread but...

Suzuki and Yoshimura are planning on entering the endurance world championship next year (you need to compete in EWC for Suzuka 8hrs)... on Monday when explaining their plans to obtain a budget, the Suzuki CEO blurted out why don't we just quit MotoGP and focus our efforts on EWC... the engineers then had to explain to Toshihiro why that was a bad idea...

Obliviously this shows you how much Suzuki Toshihiro doesn't understand about racing and the benefits of exposure from racing and winning in a popular series... if he did they wouldn't have gotten rid of the dedicated Motocross section in Japan (went bye bye in 2017) and would have developed a bike the engineers wanted to do... and would continue to support racing in Europe and the US... which would have the potential to boost sales in these markets....
(But hey i am just some pleb... what do I know )

the Austrian business model wouldn't work here anyway... the companies are so much bigger than KTM and motocross is not a big money maker... best bet is joint development.. but i don't see any of that happening given the current situation

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Bruce372
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11/17/2020 7:02pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Does anyone actually believe in a normal season that suzuki could win a moto gp title with a guy average qualifying in 8th or 9th winning...
Does anyone actually believe in a normal season that suzuki could win a moto gp title with a guy average qualifying in 8th or 9th winning only one race in a season?
deluxeman wrote:
With Marquez going down early it left the field wide open. Nobody stepped up and wanted to win the damn thing. The Yamaha boys couldn’t seem...
With Marquez going down early it left the field wide open. Nobody stepped up and wanted to win the damn thing. The Yamaha boys couldn’t seem to go from qualifying to racing on Sunday enough times to make a dent. Suzuki spent lots of money to get their bike much better. The chassis is simply the best in the paddock. They lack power but they keep the tires under them longer that any other bike on the track. The Suzuki isn’t a good qualifier because it lacks outright speed on the straights. Their launch control is great and Mir and Rins are elite level riders.

You only race the guys on the track. Mir was scored the most points and wrapped it up one race early. What is there to say except congratulations Suzuki for 2 bikes in the top three in points.

Oh yeah Vinales average qualifying was about 2nd. That man is fast on Saturday, his average race finish was about 6th. Should Vinales have been crowned Champion because he is a great qualifier?
Oh I get it. But I wouldn't bet money on suzuki winning next season. Bravo to them winning this year.
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11/18/2020 1:34am
I didn't read through this thread but... Suzuki and Yoshimura are planning on entering the endurance world championship next year (you need to compete in EWC...
I didn't read through this thread but...

Suzuki and Yoshimura are planning on entering the endurance world championship next year (you need to compete in EWC for Suzuka 8hrs)... on Monday when explaining their plans to obtain a budget, the Suzuki CEO blurted out why don't we just quit MotoGP and focus our efforts on EWC... the engineers then had to explain to Toshihiro why that was a bad idea...

Obliviously this shows you how much Suzuki Toshihiro doesn't understand about racing and the benefits of exposure from racing and winning in a popular series... if he did they wouldn't have gotten rid of the dedicated Motocross section in Japan (went bye bye in 2017) and would have developed a bike the engineers wanted to do... and would continue to support racing in Europe and the US... which would have the potential to boost sales in these markets....
(But hey i am just some pleb... what do I know )

the Austrian business model wouldn't work here anyway... the companies are so much bigger than KTM and motocross is not a big money maker... best bet is joint development.. but i don't see any of that happening given the current situation

Last sentence is the key. KTM bought the brands and you cannot "easily" buy the complete suzuki brand just because you want to make a yellow Honda or Kawasaki or Yamaha motocross bike.
OLDMOTO
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11/18/2020 10:58am
If you thought your Suzuki should be a yellow KTM post wasn't gona get hate on vital idk what to say. Also this same type of...
If you thought your Suzuki should be a yellow KTM post wasn't gona get hate on vital idk what to say. Also this same type of analysis that Kawi should make bikes for Suzuki is the reason why your original post is so off, it's mental masturbation at best but more so just an over used meme at this point. Also this ain't the 2004 4 stroke boom, they are direct competitors and there are no alliances.
bestmx wrote:
Where do I say Suzuki should be a yellow KTM?? I’m saying, why aren’t the Japanese jumping on the KTM business model and buying out the...
Where do I say Suzuki should be a yellow KTM??

I’m saying, why aren’t the Japanese jumping on the KTM business model and buying out the struggling brands, slapping their logo on the existing product and taking up more of the market?

Honda could throw a simple mail Suzuki’s way like- you guys are struggling, want to make a deal?

You say it’s crazy but, look at the car industry. We’ve got BMW powered Supras, Subaru powered Toyotas.. All effectively competitors, but you got to do what’s in your best interest.

With Suzuki right now, would you agree that they’d be in a better place if the bikes were Yellow Kawasaki’s or Hondas....?

And no, it’s not 2004. But as said above, there’s a lack of bikes right now. Suzuki’s clearly not getting the sales they want, why can’t another OEM utilise their lines to make better bikes and slap a Suzuki badge on it?
OLDMOTO wrote:
When two manufacturers combine to produce a product they see a significant demand for that specific product. There are agreements as to where the products are...
When two manufacturers combine to produce a product they see a significant demand for that specific product. There are agreements as to where the products are sold, trim levels and pricing.

The motocross market isn't sufficient for such an endeavor. Motocross sales are not booming, there is a shortage of the intended yearly production due to the pandemic and a good temporary uptick in sales from the quarantine. The factories only want to produce what they project they can sell in a model year. Over-producing creates a surplus that brings the price down and cuts into the next model year sales.
OEMs don't manufacture as many 600cc sport bikes and don't put a lot of money in to R&D because there is a limited demand for anymore.

Look at Harley Davidson's financial troubles for an example. Their main market was 45 to 65 year old white middle class men with enough disposable income to support the high price. Their market (according to them)is dying off at a rapid rate. They've been scrambling trying to repackage their outdated product to appeal to a new markets. There also trying to produce electric bikes and small displacement lower cost transportation bikes. Their big bikes don't sell like they used to and they need other products to fill the void. HD is not trendy anymore. Young people don't want them to any great extent.

Why do you think KTM married into India? To produce small cheap motorcycles.
Interestingly enough while we're discussing this topic, Yamaha announced this morning that they are discontinuing the YZF-R6, WR250R, VMAX AND SMAX after 2020.
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bayodome
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11/18/2020 11:14am
I'd say this thread is going really well.
11/18/2020 11:33am
Suzuki back in 1983 quit for good after winning 2 World titles (Jobe 250, Geboers 125)
This year they won the MotoGp
Suzuki is quite ecletic, when they do things they want to be at the top.
They are regrouping to come out in 2 years from now at the top of Motocross again.

Everybody is disrespecting the Suzuki, but all the people I know that rode a Suzuki even for a few laps are enthusiasts.
Nobody complained about the Suzuki ever! But it is too much to admit that a brand that didn't put too much effort on developing is up too par as the others brands (talking about amateur or local racers)

Now the brand is focused to bring up other sport targets, they will be back in motocross very soon...and at the top

Do not forget that it is still the most winning Japanese brand in motocross
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mikec265
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11/18/2020 1:07pm
Paulbeds1 wrote:
Suzuki back in 1983 quit for good after winning 2 World titles (Jobe 250, Geboers 125) This year they won the MotoGp Suzuki is quite ecletic...
Suzuki back in 1983 quit for good after winning 2 World titles (Jobe 250, Geboers 125)
This year they won the MotoGp
Suzuki is quite ecletic, when they do things they want to be at the top.
They are regrouping to come out in 2 years from now at the top of Motocross again.

Everybody is disrespecting the Suzuki, but all the people I know that rode a Suzuki even for a few laps are enthusiasts.
Nobody complained about the Suzuki ever! But it is too much to admit that a brand that didn't put too much effort on developing is up too par as the others brands (talking about amateur or local racers)

Now the brand is focused to bring up other sport targets, they will be back in motocross very soon...and at the top

Do not forget that it is still the most winning Japanese brand in motocross
I'm a Suzuki guy, but do you remember what that Jimmy McGarth guy said about the SUSZUKIES?
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bestmx
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11/19/2020 10:43am
Precisely my point - they have other fish to fry and whilst they aren't seeing the growth to warrant investment, there is this short term boom in the industry/ less production where bikes are hard to come by.

Why not capitalise on this? Reach out to Honda/ Kawi/ Yamaha and come to an agreement where Suzuki obtain bikes from them, slap Suzuki plastics on, a few cheaper components/ different ones like the BFRC shock etc, run them on the existing Suzuki production lines, alongside the other OEM they partner with.

To Suzuki - no R&D $$$ spent, increase in production and likely an increase in $$$ from the bikes, even if they're only getting a small amount from the other OEM.

The other OEM can make more bikes/ gets more money with the Suzuki sales and Suzuki get more bikes on the track, which surely should be the end goal?

Whilst not the same as what KTM have done, the 'model' I was speaking of was the idea to go with 1 base platform, a different logo, some changes in spec to suite different price points and rival the KTM group.

The Japanese have paired up in the past, surely it could happen again?
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11/19/2020 11:37am
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/11/18/459996/s1200_6A2FB414_904F_4071_90BE_2E6924D62F5A.jpg[/img]

THE FUTURE
11/19/2020 12:04pm
bestmx wrote:
?? It’s already happened - hence the Suzuki Kawasaki in my initial post. If it’s that stupid, why do we see Volkswagen take over the car...
?? It’s already happened - hence the Suzuki Kawasaki in my initial post.

If it’s that stupid, why do we see Volkswagen take over the car industry, why do we see KTM taking on these other brands?

In the UK we can get the same van with a Vauxhall badge, a Renault badge or a Nissan badge... You guys can buy a Mercedes sprinter with a Dodge badge.

How many cars out there have the same engine/ chassis with a different body and badge slapped on them?

That’s the point I’m making.

It’s cost effective.

Cheaper from an R&D point of view for both parties, cheaper to produce and consequently cheaper for the end consumer.

Yet, the lack of business knowledge is weak. The motocross industry is feeble minded and has no common sense... From a feeble minded dinosaur who can’t see that KTMs method definitely has a lot of pro’s as opposed to cons?

Suzuki have a bike that going by the forum is unanimously hated, why not reach out and slap yellow plastic on a better bike??

Look at the GasGas this year- few cheaper parts here and there, and ultimately KTM then have the entire market covered in terms of price point.

But you’re definitely the business man- “let’s not invest anything into our bikes, not sell any as they’re far behind the other bikes, fail to support professional teams as we don’t have the income and see how that goes..”
KTM was able to buy Husqvarna and Gas Gas for cheap because they were dead brands with little value. Suzuki is anything but that. You don't seem to be able to grasp that. Suzuki has some of the worlds most advanced motorcycle engineers and technology, they just won the MotoGP world title. If they wanted to make a better MX bike, they'd just make one and not sell off their own brand, their own legacy for a couple dirt bike sales. This is the real world not shark tank bro.

Also there's basically infinite market share in car sales compared to dirt bikes. If Suzuki or any one else starts to make all these new bikes who is going to buy them? Everyone who wants a bike has one, the market is only so big and by that I mean really small. KTM made that gamble and won but it easily could have not. If the 2016 gen KTM wasn't as earth shattering as it was KTM's story would look completely different. When that bike came out, there was really nothing like it and just because of that bike and Ryan Dungey dominating the pro scene for 3 years in SX we now have this juggernaut that is KTM. Everything had to fall into place for them to pull this off. I'm not taking anything away from KTM but to act like the Japanese can just do what they did isn't possible because the opportunity has already come and gone.
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bestmx
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11/19/2020 3:53pm Edited Date/Time 11/19/2020 3:57pm
KTM was able to buy Husqvarna and Gas Gas for cheap because they were dead brands with little value. Suzuki is anything but that. You don't...
KTM was able to buy Husqvarna and Gas Gas for cheap because they were dead brands with little value. Suzuki is anything but that. You don't seem to be able to grasp that. Suzuki has some of the worlds most advanced motorcycle engineers and technology, they just won the MotoGP world title. If they wanted to make a better MX bike, they'd just make one and not sell off their own brand, their own legacy for a couple dirt bike sales. This is the real world not shark tank bro.

Also there's basically infinite market share in car sales compared to dirt bikes. If Suzuki or any one else starts to make all these new bikes who is going to buy them? Everyone who wants a bike has one, the market is only so big and by that I mean really small. KTM made that gamble and won but it easily could have not. If the 2016 gen KTM wasn't as earth shattering as it was KTM's story would look completely different. When that bike came out, there was really nothing like it and just because of that bike and Ryan Dungey dominating the pro scene for 3 years in SX we now have this juggernaut that is KTM. Everything had to fall into place for them to pull this off. I'm not taking anything away from KTM but to act like the Japanese can just do what they did isn't possible because the opportunity has already come and gone.
Well the continuing news regarding Suzuki and are sport are things to be concerned about..

I mention the MotoGP title in my initial post and it's likely that this is where Suzuki's motorcycle budget is going.

Anyway;

Again I raise the point - would you rather go out and buy a 'Suzuki' branded YZF 250 or the current RMZ 250?

Again I raise the point - Kawasaki and Suzuki have paired up in the past, is this something that could be done again? Same bike, different colour, different logo... Which isn't that what KTM are doing? - Hence the thread title, which you don't seem to be able to grasp.

'Suzuki can just make another bike if they wanted to' - as I'm sure you know, it's nowhere near as simple as that Mr Shark Tank and the continued lack of development on Suzuki's part, suggests that this is something they aren't willing to do, which ultimately sums up the thread - why not slap their logo on someone else's platform, so as not to do this, but still get a killer bike that people actually want?

As for the buying of these bikes - if they went after the lower end of the market, minimised profit they made per bike, chucked on cheaper parts to minimise the production cost and made the bike affordable, as per KTM's approach with GasGas, then I'm sure the average guy would eat them up. - 2021 KX 250, or the Suzuki 250, which is the same platform just comes with some cheaper parts at lower price point- what is the average weekend warrior going to choose?

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