The Great Debate… PREMIX

Dirty Points 10/29/2019 1:26pm
10/29/2019 1:26pm
I like 40:1 in everything just for easy mixing. Always 1/2 a quart to 5 gallons. Jet accordingly.

Never an issue.
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endurox
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endurox 10/29/2019 1:40pm
10/29/2019 1:40pm Edited Date/Time 10/29/2019 1:42pm
Sure does, back in 1977-1980 ran 100:1 in air cooled Husqvarnas desert racing. Smelled have decent also. Bel Ray changed their MC1 formula and I stopped running it, started gumming up rings back then.
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Moto520
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Moto520 10/29/2019 1:48pm
10/29/2019 1:48pm
just out of curiosity.....what is the aversion to running the mix at 32:1 like the manual says? Why deviate from that? To save money on the oil? I'm a 32:1 Yamalube R guy all day long on my YZ125 and YZ250. To hear that people are running at 50:1 and leaner sounds strange to me. Why mess with it?
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Rick Amatuzio 10/29/2019 2:04pm
10/29/2019 2:04pm
I’ve been mixing 100:1 since I’ve been 5 years old. Every two stroke I’ve ever had..
You would be surprised how little oil you actually need.

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Caseclosed713 10/29/2019 2:17pm
10/29/2019 2:17pm
The dirtier the better...32:1 with 927 and half pump/half leaded race gas.
Moto_Geek
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Moto_Geek 10/29/2019 2:30pm
10/29/2019 2:30pm Edited Date/Time 10/29/2019 2:32pm
zehn wrote:
We have always run 32:1 in our Yamahas. Could we run 50:1? Probably
wreckitrandy wrote:
Yes sir, you could. You could drive your truck down the road two quarts low of oil as well.
zehn wrote:
What about the guy running 100:1?

That's like running your truck low 4 quarts of oil
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building the engines with better lubrication ports and efficiencies, closer/tighter clearances, etc. So yeah newer Husky/Ktm pre-2020 = 60:1

But all that said.. Smile I dump a little extra in the tank. The oil injector is behind the power valves and air intake, so start-ups cause a dry condition until the oil in the gas reaches the piston.



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Doddy
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Doddy 10/29/2019 2:37pm
10/29/2019 2:37pm
My Dad use to run 100:1 syn on his Varner engines and my bikes for years. I run 50:1 syn on my YZ250 only because that is what Motul recommends l, but will prob mix it different. I also run a Lectron....so it's tits when it comes to jetting.
Press516
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Press516 10/29/2019 2:41pm
10/29/2019 2:41pm
Always ran 40:1 in the 125's and 250's, everything but the hypo built 80's... Ran 32:1 in those. But we were already going through 4 bikes a year in the mod class...

With today's better synthetics, and simply better motors, I wouldn't have a problem running 50:1.
blu113
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blu113 10/29/2019 3:09pm
10/29/2019 3:09pm
Motul 800 40.1
Rick Amatuzio 10/29/2019 3:23pm
10/29/2019 3:23pm
wreckitrandy wrote:
Yes sir, you could. You could drive your truck down the road two quarts low of oil as well.
zehn wrote:
What about the guy running 100:1?

That's like running your truck low 4 quarts of oil
Moto_Geek wrote:
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building...
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building the engines with better lubrication ports and efficiencies, closer/tighter clearances, etc. So yeah newer Husky/Ktm pre-2020 = 60:1

But all that said.. Smile I dump a little extra in the tank. The oil injector is behind the power valves and air intake, so start-ups cause a dry condition until the oil in the gas reaches the piston.



Snowmobiles with variable oil injection, people would be shocked. WOT is 80:1, cruise is about 200:1 and idle about 1000:1. You can burn 20 gallons or more of fuel to a quart of oil.

We tested a bombardier fire pump and ran it at 1000:1 and it wouldn’t burn up. The old days of 32:1 are long gone.. it’s no wonder the EPA hates two strokes. 100:1 was an idea to help reduce the emissions problem with a quality add pack.. people still want to change their motor oil every 3000 miles too 🤷🏿‍♂️
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JM485
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JM485 10/29/2019 3:39pm
10/29/2019 3:39pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
32:1 in a 125, at least 40:1 in a 250. I run 32:1 in my 250 with either 927 or K2. Jetted perfect, runs crisp. I...
32:1 in a 125, at least 40:1 in a 250.

I run 32:1 in my 250 with either 927 or K2. Jetted perfect, runs crisp. I also appreciate the free HP and that my crank will probably last 300 hours (looking at you, 100:1 nut jobs).
JM485 wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but my YZ250 has seen nothing but 50:1 it’s entire life and the crank bearings were still good to...
I hate to break it to you, but my YZ250 has seen nothing but 50:1 it’s entire life and the crank bearings were still good to go when I replaced them and the crank at 150 hours. Go ahead and go 300 hours, but no oil on earth is going to lessen the progression of metal fatigue due to reverse loading on your connecting rod. . .
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Pretty sure I said "100:1 nut jobs". Thanks for the anecdotal evidence of 50:1 longevity though? Type of riding, terrain, skill level? Not that it matters...
Pretty sure I said "100:1 nut jobs". Thanks for the anecdotal evidence of 50:1 longevity though? Type of riding, terrain, skill level? Not that it matters since you apparently did a pre-emptive replacement at 150 hours.

Also, why replace at 150 hours if everything was good to go? Plenty of evidence of people running these cranks well past 200 hours having zero play. If one thing is strong on a YZ, it's the crank.
By saying that your crank will last 300 hours because you run 32:1, you’re implying that leaner ratios will reduce crank life, which I don’t feel is the case. Like I said, no oil is going to reverse the effects of cyclical loading on your connecting rod and crank body. With today’s oils I can see ratios as lean as 100:1 being possible, maybe not on your Walmart brand premix but with a fully synthetic I can believe it.

I ride pretty much everything imaginable. Moto, off-road, hillclimb, whatever. I ride at a pretty high level, but I’m also relatively smooth so I don’t overrev the bike much and carry a tall gear.
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Rick Amatuzio 10/29/2019 4:05pm
10/29/2019 4:05pm Edited Date/Time 10/30/2019 5:39am
JM485 wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but my YZ250 has seen nothing but 50:1 it’s entire life and the crank bearings were still good to...
I hate to break it to you, but my YZ250 has seen nothing but 50:1 it’s entire life and the crank bearings were still good to go when I replaced them and the crank at 150 hours. Go ahead and go 300 hours, but no oil on earth is going to lessen the progression of metal fatigue due to reverse loading on your connecting rod. . .
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Pretty sure I said "100:1 nut jobs". Thanks for the anecdotal evidence of 50:1 longevity though? Type of riding, terrain, skill level? Not that it matters...
Pretty sure I said "100:1 nut jobs". Thanks for the anecdotal evidence of 50:1 longevity though? Type of riding, terrain, skill level? Not that it matters since you apparently did a pre-emptive replacement at 150 hours.

Also, why replace at 150 hours if everything was good to go? Plenty of evidence of people running these cranks well past 200 hours having zero play. If one thing is strong on a YZ, it's the crank.
JM485 wrote:
By saying that your crank will last 300 hours because you run 32:1, you’re implying that leaner ratios will reduce crank life, which I don’t feel...
By saying that your crank will last 300 hours because you run 32:1, you’re implying that leaner ratios will reduce crank life, which I don’t feel is the case. Like I said, no oil is going to reverse the effects of cyclical loading on your connecting rod and crank body. With today’s oils I can see ratios as lean as 100:1 being possible, maybe not on your Walmart brand premix but with a fully synthetic I can believe it.

I ride pretty much everything imaginable. Moto, off-road, hillclimb, whatever. I ride at a pretty high level, but I’m also relatively smooth so I don’t overrev the bike much and carry a tall gear.
People don’t realize where 16:1 and 32:1 came from. Back before two stroke oils existed, low detergent motor oil was mixed in gasoline because that’s all the was available. I understand when you have 8000$ invested it’s hard to take a chance... I was fortunate to grow up in a lab watching motor get blown on purpose, 100:1 doesn’t scare me. The body of a 100:1 formulation is heavier FYI
wnorton729
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wnorton729 10/29/2019 4:14pm
10/29/2019 4:14pm
wreckitrandy wrote:
Yes sir, you could. You could drive your truck down the road two quarts low of oil as well.
zehn wrote:
What about the guy running 100:1?

That's like running your truck low 4 quarts of oil
Moto_Geek wrote:
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building...
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building the engines with better lubrication ports and efficiencies, closer/tighter clearances, etc. So yeah newer Husky/Ktm pre-2020 = 60:1

But all that said.. Smile I dump a little extra in the tank. The oil injector is behind the power valves and air intake, so start-ups cause a dry condition until the oil in the gas reaches the piston.



Same, my sons 19 Husky 85 calls for 60:1.
wnorton729
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wnorton729 10/29/2019 4:30pm
10/29/2019 4:30pm
I typically go with whatever the manual calls for but might venture off a little if need be. I’ve always ran Amsoil Dominator oil, with zero issues. For me it’s all about what the bike wants. What it looks like in between top ends, checking plug, any gunk, bogging etc. Nothing is better when you get it dialed though. 👍

Me asking, are there any downfalls on 927, castor, etc oils?? Never messed with them, always used Amsoil, just curious if they’re much different. They sure smell better. Sideways
Rick Amatuzio 10/29/2019 6:55pm
10/29/2019 6:55pm
Castor oil is dirty but works well. The only reason I ever played with it is because Ester and PAO based oils separate rather quickly from nitro methane and methanol. Castor will stay mixed
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Rick Amatuzio 10/29/2019 7:15pm
10/29/2019 7:15pm Edited Date/Time 10/29/2019 7:16pm
I love this thread, glad to see two strokes are alive and well...
the answer is probably mix whatever the heck keeps your mind at peace so you can focus on other things. Maybe that’s why Cianciarulo can’t stay on the track, he is constantly thinking “did they put 1 quart in or 1 1/2? Am I going to go the distance?” Having something like that on your mind sucks.
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BobPA
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BobPA 10/29/2019 7:47pm
10/29/2019 7:47pm
zehn wrote:
What about the guy running 100:1?

That's like running your truck low 4 quarts of oil
Moto_Geek wrote:
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building...
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building the engines with better lubrication ports and efficiencies, closer/tighter clearances, etc. So yeah newer Husky/Ktm pre-2020 = 60:1

But all that said.. Smile I dump a little extra in the tank. The oil injector is behind the power valves and air intake, so start-ups cause a dry condition until the oil in the gas reaches the piston.



Rick Amatuzio wrote:
Snowmobiles with variable oil injection, people would be shocked. WOT is 80:1, cruise is about 200:1 and idle about 1000:1. You can burn 20 gallons or...
Snowmobiles with variable oil injection, people would be shocked. WOT is 80:1, cruise is about 200:1 and idle about 1000:1. You can burn 20 gallons or more of fuel to a quart of oil.

We tested a bombardier fire pump and ran it at 1000:1 and it wouldn’t burn up. The old days of 32:1 are long gone.. it’s no wonder the EPA hates two strokes. 100:1 was an idea to help reduce the emissions problem with a quality add pack.. people still want to change their motor oil every 3000 miles too 🤷🏿‍♂️
Most of the sled guys I have spoken to would say differently. They get anywhere from 45:1 to 70:1 on average. Running place like Tug Hill...Not much powder of the east coast.

SkiDaddle is that you???

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Rick Amatuzio 10/30/2019 4:59am
10/30/2019 4:59am
Moto_Geek wrote:
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building...
My new oil-injected 2020 Husky tx300i says it runs at 80:1 standard 2 stroke oil. No problems. What people don't understand is the engineers are building the engines with better lubrication ports and efficiencies, closer/tighter clearances, etc. So yeah newer Husky/Ktm pre-2020 = 60:1

But all that said.. Smile I dump a little extra in the tank. The oil injector is behind the power valves and air intake, so start-ups cause a dry condition until the oil in the gas reaches the piston.



Rick Amatuzio wrote:
Snowmobiles with variable oil injection, people would be shocked. WOT is 80:1, cruise is about 200:1 and idle about 1000:1. You can burn 20 gallons or...
Snowmobiles with variable oil injection, people would be shocked. WOT is 80:1, cruise is about 200:1 and idle about 1000:1. You can burn 20 gallons or more of fuel to a quart of oil.

We tested a bombardier fire pump and ran it at 1000:1 and it wouldn’t burn up. The old days of 32:1 are long gone.. it’s no wonder the EPA hates two strokes. 100:1 was an idea to help reduce the emissions problem with a quality add pack.. people still want to change their motor oil every 3000 miles too 🤷🏿‍♂️
BobPA wrote:
Most of the sled guys I have spoken to would say differently. They get anywhere from 45:1 to 70:1 on average. Running place like Tug Hill...Not...
Most of the sled guys I have spoken to would say differently. They get anywhere from 45:1 to 70:1 on average. Running place like Tug Hill...Not much powder of the east coast.

SkiDaddle is that you???
You can set it any place you want with the cable, factory just has a line scribed. . I remember setting mine ridiculously lean on my 1996 Formula 3, I was getting 3 tanks of fuel to a quart of oil and Yes I rode West Yellowstone.
People blame oil in crank failures when once again, Ski Doo went to a plastic retainer for the balls on the PTO side crank bearing. It would melt from heat, all the balls would fall to one side and the motor would seize, had nothing to do with oil. They even found a lot of casting with the oil port partially blocked by the bearing race because it was drilled wrong. If everyone is so nervous, should just mix 16:1, never worry. Problem solved then... and no, oil doesn’t cause plug fouling
Madmax31
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Madmax31 10/30/2019 6:30am
10/30/2019 6:30am
Bel-Ray 50:1

FTW
Madmax31
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Madmax31 10/30/2019 6:32am
10/30/2019 6:32am Edited Date/Time 10/30/2019 6:40am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
32:1 in a 125, at least 40:1 in a 250. I run 32:1 in my 250 with either 927 or K2. Jetted perfect, runs crisp. I...
32:1 in a 125, at least 40:1 in a 250.

I run 32:1 in my 250 with either 927 or K2. Jetted perfect, runs crisp. I also appreciate the free HP and that my crank will probably last 300 hours (looking at you, 100:1 nut jobs).
JM485 wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but my YZ250 has seen nothing but 50:1 it’s entire life and the crank bearings were still good to...
I hate to break it to you, but my YZ250 has seen nothing but 50:1 it’s entire life and the crank bearings were still good to go when I replaced them and the crank at 150 hours. Go ahead and go 300 hours, but no oil on earth is going to lessen the progression of metal fatigue due to reverse loading on your connecting rod. . .
Agree...I've been running 50:1 since the late 70's and NEVER had a problem. 32:1 imho is crazy.
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Markopolo400
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Markopolo400 10/30/2019 7:17am
10/30/2019 7:17am
JM485 wrote:
By saying that your crank will last 300 hours because you run 32:1, you’re implying that leaner ratios will reduce crank life, which I don’t feel...
By saying that your crank will last 300 hours because you run 32:1, you’re implying that leaner ratios will reduce crank life, which I don’t feel is the case. Like I said, no oil is going to reverse the effects of cyclical loading on your connecting rod and crank body. With today’s oils I can see ratios as lean as 100:1 being possible, maybe not on your Walmart brand premix but with a fully synthetic I can believe it.

I ride pretty much everything imaginable. Moto, off-road, hillclimb, whatever. I ride at a pretty high level, but I’m also relatively smooth so I don’t overrev the bike much and carry a tall gear.
I don't know if I have ever seen a rod break in my 15+ years of moto that wasn't initiated by something else going first.

Every single time I have worked on a bottom end that needed a rebuild, it was due to big end or main bearings going, not a rod problem.
aFACEdismembered 10/30/2019 7:36am
10/30/2019 7:36am
Moto520 wrote:
just out of curiosity.....what is the aversion to running the mix at 32:1 like the manual says? Why deviate from that? To save money on the...
just out of curiosity.....what is the aversion to running the mix at 32:1 like the manual says? Why deviate from that? To save money on the oil? I'm a 32:1 Yamalube R guy all day long on my YZ125 and YZ250. To hear that people are running at 50:1 and leaner sounds strange to me. Why mess with it?
It all depends on the stress you're putting the motor under and how the bike is jetted. If you do a lot of low RPM woods riding there's no need for that much oil because you won't be burning all of the oil passing through the crank/cylinder. If it's not burning all of the oil it has to go somewhere and it's just gumming up in your power valve or exhaust or spark plug. For me I've just noticed if I ride 32:1 in the woods I foul more plugs and always have unburned oil on my silencer. The plug comes out black too. There's no need to spend money on premix just to have it not burn. You're pissing money away at that point just to make yourself feel better.

If you ride sand you want all the oil you can get IMO.
Rick Amatuzio 10/30/2019 8:21am
10/30/2019 8:21am
Moto520 wrote:
just out of curiosity.....what is the aversion to running the mix at 32:1 like the manual says? Why deviate from that? To save money on the...
just out of curiosity.....what is the aversion to running the mix at 32:1 like the manual says? Why deviate from that? To save money on the oil? I'm a 32:1 Yamalube R guy all day long on my YZ125 and YZ250. To hear that people are running at 50:1 and leaner sounds strange to me. Why mess with it?
aFACEdismembered wrote:
It all depends on the stress you're putting the motor under and how the bike is jetted. If you do a lot of low RPM woods...
It all depends on the stress you're putting the motor under and how the bike is jetted. If you do a lot of low RPM woods riding there's no need for that much oil because you won't be burning all of the oil passing through the crank/cylinder. If it's not burning all of the oil it has to go somewhere and it's just gumming up in your power valve or exhaust or spark plug. For me I've just noticed if I ride 32:1 in the woods I foul more plugs and always have unburned oil on my silencer. The plug comes out black too. There's no need to spend money on premix just to have it not burn. You're pissing money away at that point just to make yourself feel better.

If you ride sand you want all the oil you can get IMO.
That would be called a rich jetting situation. Raise the clip on your needle. If you mix oil at 10:1, you would be amazed how clean the inside of the motor looks. The piston won’t even have a burn mark on the crown, the oil can’t get hot enough, and the exhaust valve looks brand new. Plug fouling is caused by a tremendously lean situation where a carbon track is burnt into the porcelain and shorts the plug out.
Rick Amatuzio 10/30/2019 8:56am
10/30/2019 8:56am
Technically, mixing at 100:1 will richen the motor, reduce EGTs and lessen the chance of burn down. If a motor is approaching 1450F and you pull the choke, you can quickly reduce temps and save seizure
Lots of people on sleds think “I’m going to add some Premix oil to the fuel in my oil injected sled” when it’s SUPER cold out for extra protection. That’s ass backwards... just leans the motor out even more, throwing you at the edge of meltdown. more oil=less fuel=lean=high EGTs. I gather from what I’m reading people are More concerned about the rod bearing which maybe a little extra oil will help but the question becomes how much do you really need
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zehn
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zehn 10/30/2019 9:37am
10/30/2019 9:37am Edited Date/Time 10/30/2019 9:38am
Ski is in here somewhere I just know it
aFACEdismembered 10/30/2019 11:46am
10/30/2019 11:46am
Rick Amatuzio wrote:
That would be called a rich jetting situation. Raise the clip on your needle. If you mix oil at 10:1, you would be amazed how clean...
That would be called a rich jetting situation. Raise the clip on your needle. If you mix oil at 10:1, you would be amazed how clean the inside of the motor looks. The piston won’t even have a burn mark on the crown, the oil can’t get hot enough, and the exhaust valve looks brand new. Plug fouling is caused by a tremendously lean situation where a carbon track is burnt into the porcelain and shorts the plug out.
It's set up for 50:1. I run 32:1 if it's a sand day for piece of mind. Lectron carbs tend to run slightly lean at full throttle. Not a perfect solution but I'm not going to chase my tail jetting for a single track pleasure ride.
Rick Amatuzio 10/30/2019 1:21pm
10/30/2019 1:21pm Edited Date/Time 10/30/2019 1:22pm
Yamaha outboard motors call for 100:1... you want to see a motor that takes a beating? Go ride in a boat across a lake wide open for 2 hours straight, going much faster than you
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Rick Amatuzio 10/30/2019 2:38pm
10/30/2019 2:38pm
Oops! Show me a 250 two stroke turning 10,000rpm. Oops, show me how on earth a pre-mix motor is basing oil consumption on RPM. OOPS... dirt bikes have been water cooled for how long?

Fresh water cooling, albeit a little different than a closed system, are you concerned about detonation/seizure or rod bearing failure here? Can’t have it both ways my friend. I’ll bet my LIFE I can mix your bike at 200:1 with the oil of my choice and you couldn’t blow it up oil related all summer
Rick Amatuzio 10/30/2019 2:41pm
10/30/2019 2:41pm
Oooooppppsssss!!! Holy 1950
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