250f vs. 250 2 strokes

Falcon wrote:

I must be a very strange outlier, because I can ride my 250 smoker much, much faster than I can any 4-stroke - 250 or 450...

I must be a very strange outlier, because I can ride my 250 smoker much, much faster than I can any 4-stroke - 250 or 450. Easy to ride? Give me a 2-stroke. 4-strokes feel so weird to me. I can't time rhythms, gauge jump gaps very well, or even corner the things. They stall, lurch uncontrollably, and the moment I even think about rolling off the throttle it feels like someone stuck a pipe in my spokes. I was putting around on a 450 a few months ago ON THE VET track and almost went over the bars because the thing stalled on a hard landing.

I am being 100% serious when I say I really don't understand why anyone likes thumpers. AT ALL.

Texas Built wrote:

They are fast, easier to ride and at the top ranks are a must if you want to compete. At your local track you can race...

They are fast, easier to ride and at the top ranks are a must if you want to compete. At your local track you can race whatever and win.

Derek Harris wrote:

The are about the same peak HP to peak HP (torque totally different but that's not important in the manner people like to argue) The 250f...

The are about the same peak HP to peak HP (torque totally different but that's not important in the manner people like to argue)
The 250f also has a 3000-4000 LARGER window of usable power range and 5000-6000 higher rpm limit which helps with final drive gearing/mechanical advantage

In fact - in many recent tests of mine - the 250f's will out drag race a 250 two stroke japanese bike stock to stock.

The KTM 250sx being an exception to that - while MXA is reporting it maybe worse for 2019 - my dyno is reporting it to be stupidly strong and better than 18.
And my dyno also says opening the airbox slightly hurt HP - contrary to their reports but it does sound better (louder)
My dyno also said the PC pipe was the best bolt on I've ever tested power wise for any bike.

IT's time we had parity in racing 250cc PERIOD no strokes in the rule.
I truly believe the factory 250f's would eat the lunch of any 250 two stroke - which should be obvious when they are consistently as fast as the 450's in qualifying, and doing all the same rhythms weekly - and a 450 is 10 hp up from the good 250f's

The RPM range factory bikes run (16000) and power they make (50+) allow them to be really fast for a lot of reason a 250 two stroke would struggle to beat.

zehn wrote:

Didn’t Steinke have reliability issues with his Husky 125? Pretty sure he blew the thing up a number of times and couldn’t keep racing it

Moto man wrote:

Because it doesn't really matter if they made 250 2 strokes legal or not. Everybody would still ride a 250f. A 250f is simply more competitive...

Because it doesn't really matter if they made 250 2 strokes legal or not. Everybody would still ride a 250f. A 250f is simply more competitive than any 250 2 stroke. Easier to ride, more stable, corners better, way more power.

Derek Harris wrote:

The are about the same peak HP to peak HP (torque totally different but that's not important in the manner people like to argue) The 250f...

The are about the same peak HP to peak HP (torque totally different but that's not important in the manner people like to argue)
The 250f also has a 3000-4000 LARGER window of usable power range and 5000-6000 higher rpm limit which helps with final drive gearing/mechanical advantage

In fact - in many recent tests of mine - the 250f's will out drag race a 250 two stroke japanese bike stock to stock.

The KTM 250sx being an exception to that - while MXA is reporting it maybe worse for 2019 - my dyno is reporting it to be stupidly strong and better than 18.
And my dyno also says opening the airbox slightly hurt HP - contrary to their reports but it does sound better (louder)
My dyno also said the PC pipe was the best bolt on I've ever tested power wise for any bike.

IT's time we had parity in racing 250cc PERIOD no strokes in the rule.
I truly believe the factory 250f's would eat the lunch of any 250 two stroke - which should be obvious when they are consistently as fast as the 450's in qualifying, and doing all the same rhythms weekly - and a 450 is 10 hp up from the good 250f's

The RPM range factory bikes run (16000) and power they make (50+) allow them to be really fast for a lot of reason a 250 two stroke would struggle to beat.

77Moto wrote:

To get that, the damn things last 1 race, MAYBE or Maybe not if they were like that one team that was blowing bikes left and...

To get that, the damn things last 1 race, MAYBE or Maybe not if they were like that one team that was blowing bikes left and right. So Not comparable at all.

On top of that, 250cc 2 stroke shifter karts are getting 60s reliably. Hell, 125 shifter karts are routinely in the 45 range.

Derek Harris wrote:

Some of you guys are so damn sensative Im am probably the biggest advocate of the 2 stroke you will ever meet. But Im also a...

Some of you guys are so damn sensative

Im am probably the biggest advocate of the 2 stroke you will ever meet.

But Im also a realist. I have built 60hp 250 2 strokes. Trust me - youd cry trying to race it vs a good 250f over 35 minutes
And youd also be surprised how close the 250f would be in a flat out accleration race

Should we allow the rules to be true parity and equal cc?
Yes

Would the two stroke faithful be happy once we did have parity after the 250f won - which is my bet?

Go watch the outdoors when bubba was on a 250 - he had no hope vs the 450s and contrary to what Ive read on here, the factory 450s of that time were MAX hp where a current production bike is, most quite less

A modern 250f vs bubbas 250 wouldnt even be a race. 250f win by a mile. Just look at the lap times. Maybe people forgot? Justin cooper was FASTEST qualifier at glen helen of ALL bikes.

If that doesnt tell you all you need to know about the current status of the 250f I dont know what will

The 2 stroke is an amazing engine - and per cc its peak hp output is still unmatched

But for the specifics of mx - its not the best engine anymore imho

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Back to back championships (2014 & 2015) 2015 bike had a pipe and silencer. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/19/326531/s1200_ktmcanadapodium.thumb.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/19/326529/s1200_benoitwin630.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/19/326533/s1200_s600_Kaven_Benoit_2015_Gopher_Dunes_2.jpg[/img] He would have won on the 250f as well...

Back to back championships (2014 & 2015)

2015 bike had a pipe and silencer.





He would have won on the 250f as well. He had the choice to ride both and he did in 2014 and won races on both. The rules changed for 2015 where you had to pick one or the other for the entire season and he chose the 2 stroke.

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Back to back championships (2014 & 2015) 2015 bike had a pipe and silencer. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/19/326531/s1200_ktmcanadapodium.thumb.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/19/326529/s1200_benoitwin630.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/19/326533/s1200_s600_Kaven_Benoit_2015_Gopher_Dunes_2.jpg[/img] He would have won on the 250f as well...

Back to back championships (2014 & 2015)

2015 bike had a pipe and silencer.





He would have won on the 250f as well. He had the choice to ride both and he did in 2014 and won races on both. The rules changed for 2015 where you had to pick one or the other for the entire season and he chose the 2 stroke.

zehn wrote:

Didn’t they have a rule that you could go back and forth between the 250 and 250F on different weekends during those years? They changed that...

Didn’t they have a rule that you could go back and forth between the 250 and 250F on different weekends during those years? They changed that rule

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Edited my post. 2014 he rode both bikes depending on the track because there was no rules against it. 2015 the rules changed. Had to pick...

Edited my post.

2014 he rode both bikes depending on the track because there was no rules against it.

2015 the rules changed. Had to pick one or another. Also changed the rules so you could only have a pipe and silencer. Won the title on an as close to a stock bike you can get.

r18b wrote:

"In fact - in many recent tests of mine - the 250f's will out drag race a 250 two stroke japanese bike stock to stock." Both...

"In fact - in many recent tests of mine - the 250f's will out drag race a 250 two stroke japanese bike stock to stock."

Both bikes coming out a corner at the same time then a 250f will outrun a 250 smoker?? Then you have a dragrace. Not from standing still then i will flip backwards. Riding on a track not a dragstrip.

Well i have a the last cr250

Sorry to say but that is not gonna happen and i will tell you right away not even a 450 is going to do that. See it every week on the track and yes those riders are faster then me but coming together out of a corner at the same time a 250 4 stroke no matter what brand comes to short.. way to short for a overtake.

Fun part is that i am in second gear and those 250 350 and 450 in third gear. When they go to 4 gear i'm going to third.
Have friends what ride a 250 a 350 and a 450 and they all say the same.. we have to overtake you for the corner when you come out it's "bye bye"


Here are the 250 smokers allowed in the 250 4 stroke class. Only a smoker is harder to keep the pace up with the easy riding 4 strokes but for a amateur like me who rides for fun it's the best bike a cr250.

r18b wrote:

"In fact - in many recent tests of mine - the 250f's will out drag race a 250 two stroke japanese bike stock to stock." Both...

"In fact - in many recent tests of mine - the 250f's will out drag race a 250 two stroke japanese bike stock to stock."

Both bikes coming out a corner at the same time then a 250f will outrun a 250 smoker?? Then you have a dragrace. Not from standing still then i will flip backwards. Riding on a track not a dragstrip.

Well i have a the last cr250

Sorry to say but that is not gonna happen and i will tell you right away not even a 450 is going to do that. See it every week on the track and yes those riders are faster then me but coming together out of a corner at the same time a 250 4 stroke no matter what brand comes to short.. way to short for a overtake.

Fun part is that i am in second gear and those 250 350 and 450 in third gear. When they go to 4 gear i'm going to third.
Have friends what ride a 250 a 350 and a 450 and they all say the same.. we have to overtake you for the corner when you come out it's "bye bye"


Here are the 250 smokers allowed in the 250 4 stroke class. Only a smoker is harder to keep the pace up with the easy riding 4 strokes but for a amateur like me who rides for fun it's the best bike a cr250.

Ranman68 wrote:

Two strokes still have a pretty sizable horsepower advantage per cc and they're lighter, but that power is far less spread out and concentrated in a...

Two strokes still have a pretty sizable horsepower advantage per cc and they're lighter, but that power is far less spread out and concentrated in a narrow rpm zone. This makes them far more abrupt and much harder to keep the rear tire hooked up out of corners. They hit harder and feel way faster, but they dont actually move you any faster. Too much wasted wheel spin or wasted momentum when you wheelie and have to back off the throttle or clutch it because you're just below the "power band"....or you accidentally overrev a little and power falls off big time. All that jerking, more clutch action, more shifting, etc is extra tiring and must be perfect at all times to make use of that extra peak horsepower. The difference in peak power now isn't enough to overcome the inefficiency of the two stroke power curve. Four strokes are mire stable, stay hooked up way better, require far less shifting/clutching. Anyone who cant get around a track faster on a 4 stroke just hasnt spent any time on one or learned how to ride one correctly. Even at the highest levels and in supercross, I doubt it would even matter if they allowed two strokes to compete at the same cc's. No one would race them because they would have better lap times on a 4 stroke even with slightly less peak power. On a local level and where budgets are small, two strokes can be a good option because they're cheaper, super simple, and super cheap to maintain. They also sound cool and have that cool "bark"...and smell cool..

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Edited my post. 2014 he rode both bikes depending on the track because there was no rules against it. 2015 the rules changed. Had to pick...

Edited my post.

2014 he rode both bikes depending on the track because there was no rules against it.

2015 the rules changed. Had to pick one or another. Also changed the rules so you could only have a pipe and silencer. Won the title on an as close to a stock bike you can get.

zehn wrote:

In 2014 what engine mods were allowed on the 250 2T? I thought it had to remain completely stock from the intake to the exhaust port.

PTshox wrote:

One comment I do have around this is how the suspension on the 4 strokes are easier to setup than on the 2 strokes. Something about...

One comment I do have around this is how the suspension on the 4 strokes are easier to setup than on the 2 strokes.
Something about how the 4 stroke delivers power... it makes it easier to set up the shock for sharp edge bumps and not have the bike kick sideways. I'm not sure exactly why... But it's noticeable. The 2 stroke wants to move left to right... the 4 stroke "thumps" forward vs wanting to move side to side.

My 3 cents...

Ranman68 wrote:

Two strokes still have a pretty sizable horsepower advantage per cc and they're lighter, but that power is far less spread out and concentrated in a...

Two strokes still have a pretty sizable horsepower advantage per cc and they're lighter, but that power is far less spread out and concentrated in a narrow rpm zone. This makes them far more abrupt and much harder to keep the rear tire hooked up out of corners. They hit harder and feel way faster, but they dont actually move you any faster. Too much wasted wheel spin or wasted momentum when you wheelie and have to back off the throttle or clutch it because you're just below the "power band"....or you accidentally overrev a little and power falls off big time. All that jerking, more clutch action, more shifting, etc is extra tiring and must be perfect at all times to make use of that extra peak horsepower. The difference in peak power now isn't enough to overcome the inefficiency of the two stroke power curve. Four strokes are mire stable, stay hooked up way better, require far less shifting/clutching. Anyone who cant get around a track faster on a 4 stroke just hasnt spent any time on one or learned how to ride one correctly. Even at the highest levels and in supercross, I doubt it would even matter if they allowed two strokes to compete at the same cc's. No one would race them because they would have better lap times on a 4 stroke even with slightly less peak power. On a local level and where budgets are small, two strokes can be a good option because they're cheaper, super simple, and super cheap to maintain. They also sound cool and have that cool "bark"...and smell cool..

drt410 wrote:

Agree 100%. But for cost purposes for privateers getting 18th anyways 250cc 2 strokes should be allowed if they choose. Even if nobody chooses it should...

Agree 100%. But for cost purposes for privateers getting 18th anyways 250cc 2 strokes should be allowed if they choose. Even if nobody chooses it should now be allowed everywhere equal displacement.

Derek Harris wrote:

Yes - but public demand is THERE for the 2 stroke, hence the commercial. I say - sell that 07 with BNG and limited quantities -...

Yes - but public demand is THERE for the 2 stroke, hence the commercial.
I say - sell that 07 with BNG and limited quantities - 100 a year tops. I'd bet they sell every one...

Moto man wrote:

Because it doesn't really matter if they made 250 2 strokes legal or not. Everybody would still ride a 250f. A 250f is simply more competitive...

Because it doesn't really matter if they made 250 2 strokes legal or not. Everybody would still ride a 250f. A 250f is simply more competitive than any 250 2 stroke. Easier to ride, more stable, corners better, way more power.

Derek Harris wrote:

Yes - but public demand is THERE for the 2 stroke, hence the commercial. I say - sell that 07 with BNG and limited quantities -...

Yes - but public demand is THERE for the 2 stroke, hence the commercial.
I say - sell that 07 with BNG and limited quantities - 100 a year tops. I'd bet they sell every one...

psg119 wrote:

I agree there is a demand. I'm one of them haha. I just picked up a fresh 2004 YZ250 not too long ago:) If they could...

I agree there is a demand. I'm one of them haha. I just picked up a fresh 2004 YZ250 not too long ago If they could figure out a way to bring the price back down to around $6k on them I think there'd be a much larger demand. It's possible it is costing them more to make them now.

Falcon wrote:

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK...

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK with $7399 for a 2019 250 instead of $9299 for a 450F. (Or even $8199 for a 250F.)

One of these days I'm going to pull the trigger and buy a new 250.

Falcon wrote:

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK...

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK with $7399 for a 2019 250 instead of $9299 for a 450F. (Or even $8199 for a 250F.)

One of these days I'm going to pull the trigger and buy a new 250.

psg119 wrote:

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Thanks for the info! Do you think that if they did for some reason start developing the smokers (electronics, new...

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Thanks for the info! Do you think that if they did for some reason start developing the smokers (electronics, new chassis, so on) that they'll be priced right up there with the 4 strokes? I would think they would.

I hear ya. It's hard for me to buy any brand new bike at this point in my life. I can't see spending that much when I feel I should be using the 8k for something to invest in for my family's life a little better in the future. Maybe when I'm older and more established. It would be nice. But for now I'll just buy hand-me-downs so someone else can get their new bike and I can still enjoy what I love. Haha. Someday!

Falcon wrote:

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK...

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK with $7399 for a 2019 250 instead of $9299 for a 450F. (Or even $8199 for a 250F.)

One of these days I'm going to pull the trigger and buy a new 250.

psg119 wrote:

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Thanks for the info! Do you think that if they did for some reason start developing the smokers (electronics, new...

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Thanks for the info! Do you think that if they did for some reason start developing the smokers (electronics, new chassis, so on) that they'll be priced right up there with the 4 strokes? I would think they would.

I hear ya. It's hard for me to buy any brand new bike at this point in my life. I can't see spending that much when I feel I should be using the 8k for something to invest in for my family's life a little better in the future. Maybe when I'm older and more established. It would be nice. But for now I'll just buy hand-me-downs so someone else can get their new bike and I can still enjoy what I love. Haha. Someday!

MPJC wrote:

KTM 2 strokes are constantly being developed and they still cost significantly less than their 4 strokes - though significantly more than a YZ. Here in...

KTM 2 strokes are constantly being developed and they still cost significantly less than their 4 strokes - though significantly more than a YZ. Here in Canada, a 250 SX is $1,100 cheaper than a 250 SXF.

Falcon wrote:

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK...

Shipping, warehousing and raw materials have gone up since the early 2000s. Not to mention the fact that they sell fewer of them now. I'm OK with $7399 for a 2019 250 instead of $9299 for a 450F. (Or even $8199 for a 250F.)

One of these days I'm going to pull the trigger and buy a new 250.

psg119 wrote:

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Thanks for the info! Do you think that if they did for some reason start developing the smokers (electronics, new...

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Thanks for the info! Do you think that if they did for some reason start developing the smokers (electronics, new chassis, so on) that they'll be priced right up there with the 4 strokes? I would think they would.

I hear ya. It's hard for me to buy any brand new bike at this point in my life. I can't see spending that much when I feel I should be using the 8k for something to invest in for my family's life a little better in the future. Maybe when I'm older and more established. It would be nice. But for now I'll just buy hand-me-downs so someone else can get their new bike and I can still enjoy what I love. Haha. Someday!

MPJC wrote:

KTM 2 strokes are constantly being developed and they still cost significantly less than their 4 strokes - though significantly more than a YZ. Here in...

KTM 2 strokes are constantly being developed and they still cost significantly less than their 4 strokes - though significantly more than a YZ. Here in Canada, a 250 SX is $1,100 cheaper than a 250 SXF.

zehn wrote:

Didn’t Steinke have reliability issues with his Husky 125? Pretty sure he blew the thing up a number of times and couldn’t keep racing it