Harley Davidson re-entering dirt market

7/31/2018 8:48pm
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3
sumdood
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Fantasy
7/31/2018 11:40pm
Riding that bike in the dirt would certainly be an adventure I'll give em that
kb228
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8/1/2018 3:23am
nice id like to see someone hit laroccos leap on that bad boy flat out in 5th tapped. I think when it hits the dirt it...
nice id like to see someone hit laroccos leap on that bad boy flat out in 5th tapped. I think when it hits the dirt it will just literally explode. but in all honesty with all the technology HD has u think they could whoop anyones ass if they built a mx bike. They obviously dont think its worth it and the wont make any money on it or they would have already.
motogrady wrote:
:laugh: And any motocross bike would literally explode in a few hours trying to hang with that bike on a highway or long gravel road. Would...
Laughing

And any motocross bike would literally explode in a few hours trying to hang with that bike on a highway or long gravel road. Would be lucky to make the state line, let alone the continental devide.

I’ve often wondered, why HD hasn’t gone dirt.
They run dirt track, it’s not like they can’t put a team together.

If you followed Dave Oysterman (sp?), Reeds team manager, and his gig there, it sheds a little light on how they do it.
I think they are just too big. Too bureaucratic. The opposite of KTM. 16 engineers, dealing with a plethora of suppliers,
bean counters, design and art guys. Too slow making a racing bike to keep up with the current stuff.
That’s what happened back in the 70s with the orange ones. Buy the time they got them out, everyone else was already water cooled, while the best they could do was an air cooled bike made in Italy.

No, they figured out what works best for them. How they can make money.
Big cruisers are their fortae, always have been.
That they know their limits, eh, smart business.
i agree HD has solidified being the king of motorcycles. If i had to choose a road bike it would be a HD and nothing else...
i agree HD has solidified being the king of motorcycles. If i had to choose a road bike it would be a HD and nothing else. They are smart in business for sure and have a awesome reputation and millions of bikes on the road.

and you couldnt be more right that would be a great mainly on, sometimes light off road bike. probobly hauls ass to im sure they have it powered real well.
I hope you look into harleys a little more before you dump $25,000 on one. Theyre nowhere close to the king of motorcycles. They screw people on financing and have unreliable bikes
1

The Shop

motogrady
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8/1/2018 5:17am
Adam43 wrote:
Forgot about that project. As I recall they got pretty far along. Would make a hell of a story for a determined reporter.
If memory serves me correctly, the employee's involved with the project are not allowed to discuss it.

Yeah, from what I get, it’s like working at any big company. You gotta sign a piece of paper saying you won’t talk about
what you did or what they’re doing.

As far as the new street bike, seems a few guys on other forums are pretty excited.
Apparently this thing has been in the works for a while, rumors have been circulating.
One must admit, it’s a break from the old HD styling.
If that ain’t a Japan bug eyed looking crotch rocket styled bike I don’t know what is.

As far as the ADV bike, that caught a lot by surprise.
Hardly anyone even knew they were working on one.
It’ll be funny if they stay with belt drive on it.

And here’s the end of the line for the Buell.
The 1125cr. Fly by wire throttle. The trademark front disc Eric Buell just had to have. Displacement that kept it out of
virtually all established racing classes.

Sometimes they’re so smart, they’re stupid.


motogrady
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8/1/2018 5:23am
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Wow. That must be the bike Ozzy was involved with. I think it was called the Griffith Project.
freeh
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8/1/2018 6:03am
Adam43 wrote:
Forgot about that project. As I recall they got pretty far along. Would make a hell of a story for a determined reporter.
If memory serves me correctly, the employee's involved with the project are not allowed to discuss it.
motogrady wrote:
Yeah, from what I get, it’s like working at any big company. You gotta sign a piece of paper saying you won’t talk about what you...

Yeah, from what I get, it’s like working at any big company. You gotta sign a piece of paper saying you won’t talk about
what you did or what they’re doing.

As far as the new street bike, seems a few guys on other forums are pretty excited.
Apparently this thing has been in the works for a while, rumors have been circulating.
One must admit, it’s a break from the old HD styling.
If that ain’t a Japan bug eyed looking crotch rocket styled bike I don’t know what is.

As far as the ADV bike, that caught a lot by surprise.
Hardly anyone even knew they were working on one.
It’ll be funny if they stay with belt drive on it.

And here’s the end of the line for the Buell.
The 1125cr. Fly by wire throttle. The trademark front disc Eric Buell just had to have. Displacement that kept it out of
virtually all established racing classes.

Sometimes they’re so smart, they’re stupid.


Buell doesn't exist anymore, so we can talk about whatever the fuck we want. Ask me any questions. I'll answer them. In fact, Ozzy can blame me for getting him hired there. haha
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freeh
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8/1/2018 6:04am
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motogrady wrote:

Wow. That must be the bike Ozzy was involved with. I think it was called the Griffith Project.
It was Project Griffin, as in the mythical creature.. And yes, that is the bike.
freeh
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8/1/2018 6:07am
We rented out Sunset Ridge to do brake testing once. The bike used for testing was an 07 CRF 450, which was the benchmark bike for the project. Same geometry, with a little Buell flavor to make it different of course.
Jbulz
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8/1/2018 6:19am
So cool to hear about this bike again. I remember Osterman was on Pulp like 5 years ago talking a little about it. Now that Buell is no longer I was thinking of shooting Steve an email to see if he could get him on again to talk more openly about the development.

In your opinion, what do you think the most innovative feature of the bike was? Anything interesting about you time there or the bike itself that you think would be interesting to share?

I'm a little surprised to see linkless rear suspension, right side chain, and what looks like almost zero antisquat with the sprocket/swing arm pivot configuration. Was it intended to be a woods bike?
Premix
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8/1/2018 6:32am
kb228 wrote:
Theyre coming out with a naked super sport v twin too. Im sure theyll fail miserably with weight and low power numbers but its cool to...
Theyre coming out with a naked super sport v twin too. Im sure theyll fail miserably with weight and low power numbers but its cool to see them doing something smart for a wider margin of riders
You must be young or new to the motorcycle scene and not recall Buell motorcycles......
Bigfoot
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8/1/2018 6:51am
You've all got it wrong. They're going to go all 2-stroke!


kb228
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8/1/2018 7:02am
kb228 wrote:
Theyre coming out with a naked super sport v twin too. Im sure theyll fail miserably with weight and low power numbers but its cool to...
Theyre coming out with a naked super sport v twin too. Im sure theyll fail miserably with weight and low power numbers but its cool to see them doing something smart for a wider margin of riders
Premix wrote:
You must be young or new to the motorcycle scene and not recall Buell motorcycles......
I want to say buell went under when i was just going into highschool.
motogrady
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8/1/2018 7:19am
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motogrady wrote:

Wow. That must be the bike Ozzy was involved with. I think it was called the Griffith Project.
freeh wrote:
It was Project Griffin, as in the mythical creature.. And yes, that is the bike.

Hey guy thanks for responding.

I’ve wondered how they were going about it.
You indicate they acquired a 450cr, and used that as a baseline.
Did the make that bike from the ground up?
The frame, for sure different. Looks like they were using the engine as a structural support.
And the motor, did they just make that from billet?

Big question, how does all that stuff happen?
Is there one guy that says, we’re gonna do this, and we’re gonna use that......and then we’re gonna hire this guy
and go racing here.

Or is it all by committe? People making suggestions, and doing things by majority vote?
Sweetd31
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8/1/2018 8:43am
leighracer wrote:
Non-moto?
Hold my beer
cwtoyota
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8/1/2018 9:20am
leighracer wrote:
Non-moto?
Bullshit, that thing is core!
Watch for me on one of those at A1, my speed in the whoops will blow your mind.

3
8/1/2018 9:23am
make1go wrote:
"adventure" bikes have about as much to do with dirt as suv's have with real 4 wd... its an image bike for guys who think a...
"adventure" bikes have about as much to do with dirt as suv's have with real 4 wd...

its an image bike for guys who think a bumpy gravel road is offroading..
Lol...you should tell that to the guy who ran 3 laps at the Boyers, PA AWRCS round on one of the KTM adventure bikes Woohoo
user760a
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8/1/2018 9:28am Edited Date/Time 8/1/2018 9:29am
nice id like to see someone hit laroccos leap on that bad boy flat out in 5th tapped. I think when it hits the dirt it...
nice id like to see someone hit laroccos leap on that bad boy flat out in 5th tapped. I think when it hits the dirt it will just literally explode. but in all honesty with all the technology HD has u think they could whoop anyones ass if they built a mx bike. They obviously dont think its worth it and the wont make any money on it or they would have already.
motogrady wrote:
:laugh: And any motocross bike would literally explode in a few hours trying to hang with that bike on a highway or long gravel road. Would...
Laughing

And any motocross bike would literally explode in a few hours trying to hang with that bike on a highway or long gravel road. Would be lucky to make the state line, let alone the continental devide.

I’ve often wondered, why HD hasn’t gone dirt.
They run dirt track, it’s not like they can’t put a team together.

If you followed Dave Oysterman (sp?), Reeds team manager, and his gig there, it sheds a little light on how they do it.
I think they are just too big. Too bureaucratic. The opposite of KTM. 16 engineers, dealing with a plethora of suppliers,
bean counters, design and art guys. Too slow making a racing bike to keep up with the current stuff.
That’s what happened back in the 70s with the orange ones. Buy the time they got them out, everyone else was already water cooled, while the best they could do was an air cooled bike made in Italy.

No, they figured out what works best for them. How they can make money.
Big cruisers are their fortae, always have been.
That they know their limits, eh, smart business.
i agree HD has solidified being the king of motorcycles. If i had to choose a road bike it would be a HD and nothing else...
i agree HD has solidified being the king of motorcycles. If i had to choose a road bike it would be a HD and nothing else. They are smart in business for sure and have a awesome reputation and millions of bikes on the road.

and you couldnt be more right that would be a great mainly on, sometimes light off road bike. probobly hauls ass to im sure they have it powered real well.
Correction. King of cruisers.

HD can't even begin to dream of some day having the slightest prayer of competing with Euro and jap brands in any other category with their current crop of putt putts...so generally they do not try, preferring to have all their eggs in that one basket.

This hinting at future market diversification is an acknowledgement by HD that the eggs in one basket scenario is not going to work in the future . Some buyers want performance. The traditional HD buyer does not care about performance, all they want is entry into the loud, heavy, ugly wannabe badass club
1
Slim Pickens
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8/1/2018 10:12am
Seriously, why would anyone ride a 800 lb. motorcycle that vibrates like a 3-legged washing machine?
BR8ES
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8/1/2018 10:40am
kb228 wrote:
Theyre coming out with a naked super sport v twin too. Im sure theyll fail miserably with weight and low power numbers but its cool to...
Theyre coming out with a naked super sport v twin too. Im sure theyll fail miserably with weight and low power numbers but its cool to see them doing something smart for a wider margin of riders
That bike is pretty cool, standards are pretty hot right now. I would consider this bike even though I have an R Nine T.
Falcon
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8/1/2018 10:42am Edited Date/Time 8/1/2018 10:44am
Falcon wrote:
Harley will do well to branch out to more riders. People said the same critical things about Porsche when they made an SUV, but that car...
Harley will do well to branch out to more riders. People said the same critical things about Porsche when they made an SUV, but that car kept them from going under. Harley's new bikes will likely do the same for them, because cruisers are D-E-A-D. They need something new.
Cruisers are far from dead. I feel like this is the AMF years coming back around with all these different models being released. I hope they...
Cruisers are far from dead.

I feel like this is the AMF years coming back around with all these different models being released. I hope they sell well and arent made like crap. Im looking forward to riding the new models.
Brad460 wrote:
Agreed- cruisers are not dead, but Harley needs a new growth strategy..sustainable growth.
MIC data would say otherwise. Perhaps I misspoke when I said "dead," but all manufacturers of "Cruiser" motorcycles should be worried. Cruisers are traditionally owned by a particular motorcycle demographic: older, more experienced and more affluent. That group (including baby boomers) is aging out of the motorcycle-riding demo and they are not being replaced by younger generations growing up as quickly as they used to.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/03/harley-davidson-sales-go-from…

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/2018/01/16/harley-davidso…

https://www.bikebandit.com/blog/large-motorcycles-are-dying-in-the-us-a… (This one predates Harley's new direction, admittedly)

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/2018/04/24/harley-davidson-profit-…


In slightly more optimistic news, it looks like Victory/Indian is doing much better than Harley is.
I think it's wise that Harley is looking to the Adventure market, as lots of Gen-Xers will ride that instead as we get older. The electric model makes sense for millenials, as well.
BR8ES
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8/1/2018 10:44am
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motogrady wrote:

Wow. That must be the bike Ozzy was involved with. I think it was called the Griffith Project.
freeh wrote:
It was Project Griffin, as in the mythical creature.. And yes, that is the bike.
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their biggest issue for a start up was the engine, they should have just sourced one from Folan like the early test mules, may have saved the whole thing.
1
freeh
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8/1/2018 11:18am
motogrady wrote:

Wow. That must be the bike Ozzy was involved with. I think it was called the Griffith Project.
freeh wrote:
It was Project Griffin, as in the mythical creature.. And yes, that is the bike.
BR8ES wrote:
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their...
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their biggest issue for a start up was the engine, they should have just sourced one from Folan like the early test mules, may have saved the whole thing.
You are correct. The engine was a stressed member. Also, the fuel was stored in the frame, which is how all of their last gen street bikes were configured.
Erik Buell and I got into a heated argument about a no linkage rear suspension. He was convinced it was the way to go. I told him the mx crowd would not agree. At the time all KTMs were still without linkage as well. I was right about that one.
Another goofy concept on the bike was the seat. Due to airbox placement and frame configuration, the seat was originally designed to have a removable piece at the front to allow access to the air filter. I thought that was the dumbest thing ever. Of course now Yamaha does basically the same thing, so he was right on that one.

I agree with you about Cannondale. Trying to design their own engine was their downfall for sure. They were so early into the market segment of 4 stroke mx bikes, they should have had a good chance at success. Buell had a Cannondale in the bike warehouse for reference,.

As far as I know, I was one of only two people that rode their "mule" test bike. It has the correct engine, but the frame was a fabrication for early engine development only.
3
BR8ES
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8/1/2018 11:29am
freeh wrote:
It was Project Griffin, as in the mythical creature.. And yes, that is the bike.
BR8ES wrote:
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their...
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their biggest issue for a start up was the engine, they should have just sourced one from Folan like the early test mules, may have saved the whole thing.
freeh wrote:
You are correct. The engine was a stressed member. Also, the fuel was stored in the frame, which is how all of their last gen street...
You are correct. The engine was a stressed member. Also, the fuel was stored in the frame, which is how all of their last gen street bikes were configured.
Erik Buell and I got into a heated argument about a no linkage rear suspension. He was convinced it was the way to go. I told him the mx crowd would not agree. At the time all KTMs were still without linkage as well. I was right about that one.
Another goofy concept on the bike was the seat. Due to airbox placement and frame configuration, the seat was originally designed to have a removable piece at the front to allow access to the air filter. I thought that was the dumbest thing ever. Of course now Yamaha does basically the same thing, so he was right on that one.

I agree with you about Cannondale. Trying to design their own engine was their downfall for sure. They were so early into the market segment of 4 stroke mx bikes, they should have had a good chance at success. Buell had a Cannondale in the bike warehouse for reference,.

As far as I know, I was one of only two people that rode their "mule" test bike. It has the correct engine, but the frame was a fabrication for early engine development only.
That is some great insight, appreciate it.
nate 415
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Fort Wayne, IN, USA
8/1/2018 12:20pm
The fact is motocross bikes are not profitable, KTM has some sort of partnership with a India company that sells millions of scooters. Same with the jap companies. The mass produced stuff is what subsidizes the sexy moto stuff,
My dream is to produce a aircooled 125 with decent suspension for grass roots racing. The numbers just don't work.
Half the bicycles in my local shop cost more than my 250f
1
1
FWYT
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San Diego, CA, USA
8/1/2018 12:36pm
freeh wrote:
It was Project Griffin, as in the mythical creature.. And yes, that is the bike.
BR8ES wrote:
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their...
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their biggest issue for a start up was the engine, they should have just sourced one from Folan like the early test mules, may have saved the whole thing.
freeh wrote:
You are correct. The engine was a stressed member. Also, the fuel was stored in the frame, which is how all of their last gen street...
You are correct. The engine was a stressed member. Also, the fuel was stored in the frame, which is how all of their last gen street bikes were configured.
Erik Buell and I got into a heated argument about a no linkage rear suspension. He was convinced it was the way to go. I told him the mx crowd would not agree. At the time all KTMs were still without linkage as well. I was right about that one.
Another goofy concept on the bike was the seat. Due to airbox placement and frame configuration, the seat was originally designed to have a removable piece at the front to allow access to the air filter. I thought that was the dumbest thing ever. Of course now Yamaha does basically the same thing, so he was right on that one.

I agree with you about Cannondale. Trying to design their own engine was their downfall for sure. They were so early into the market segment of 4 stroke mx bikes, they should have had a good chance at success. Buell had a Cannondale in the bike warehouse for reference,.

As far as I know, I was one of only two people that rode their "mule" test bike. It has the correct engine, but the frame was a fabrication for early engine development only.
Man, this is some seriously interesting stuff! I would love it if someone did a larger story with
you (and whoever else) on this subject. I find this stuff fascinating.
1
mauidex
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Haiku, HI, USA
8/1/2018 12:57pm
BR8ES wrote:
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their...
Engine looks like a stressed member of the frame? Least they tried, would have been interesting, think I am still scarred from the Cannondale fiasco. Their biggest issue for a start up was the engine, they should have just sourced one from Folan like the early test mules, may have saved the whole thing.
freeh wrote:
You are correct. The engine was a stressed member. Also, the fuel was stored in the frame, which is how all of their last gen street...
You are correct. The engine was a stressed member. Also, the fuel was stored in the frame, which is how all of their last gen street bikes were configured.
Erik Buell and I got into a heated argument about a no linkage rear suspension. He was convinced it was the way to go. I told him the mx crowd would not agree. At the time all KTMs were still without linkage as well. I was right about that one.
Another goofy concept on the bike was the seat. Due to airbox placement and frame configuration, the seat was originally designed to have a removable piece at the front to allow access to the air filter. I thought that was the dumbest thing ever. Of course now Yamaha does basically the same thing, so he was right on that one.

I agree with you about Cannondale. Trying to design their own engine was their downfall for sure. They were so early into the market segment of 4 stroke mx bikes, they should have had a good chance at success. Buell had a Cannondale in the bike warehouse for reference,.

As far as I know, I was one of only two people that rode their "mule" test bike. It has the correct engine, but the frame was a fabrication for early engine development only.
FWYT wrote:
Man, this is some seriously interesting stuff! I would love it if someone did a larger story with you (and whoever else) on this subject. I...
Man, this is some seriously interesting stuff! I would love it if someone did a larger story with
you (and whoever else) on this subject. I find this stuff fascinating.
Ozzy to the white courtesy phone!!!!!Wink Wink
disbanded
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8/1/2018 1:02pm
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Cool quad
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