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Lets say FIM gives Tickle a 6 month ban. WADA will step in within 5 minutes after they get to know that and hand out a 2-4 year ban to Tickle. They have done that many, many times when they see that an athlete got a "small" penalty. So FIM can't do anything when it comes to the penalties.
That is why i wrote in an other thread that it would be interesting to see a rider fail a test in the outdoor series. The penalty would be the same with USADA and AMA Pro Racing.
So FIM is not "screwing" the riders with the penalties like so many people think. Are they handling this smoothly? Absolutely not. It seems like it is a complete shitshow. But we can't blame them for the penalties.
That is a short recap of the interview. But i strongly recommend that people listen to it. He is the first guest on the show.
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Your statement,” I also think that penalties should be issued by folks within our series, like reps from the various OEMs, or the AMA; not outside of it.”
It is common business practice to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, so having someone from a manufacturer or energy drink company set the rules, unless assigned ahead of time, would be bad. The AMA may not run the series, but they should set the rules !!!!!
Also please don’t forget, everyone, AMA, FIM, Feld, MX Sports, knew back in 2007 that “double-displacement” was a problem and seriously outdated, and nobody did anything. The FIM discussed reducing the MX1 class to 350cc over ten years ago, still no solution in sight.
And I'd have to disagree about the meat, I don't believe for a second there aren't hormones and other weird crap in our meat here, regardless of how well it's "checked".
It sounds good on paper, but my concern is this. If you allow a preliminary (and presumed) guilty rider compete, it can cause more issues than that single rider's results if the B sample also comes back dirty.
1. Let's say "Rider F" (for failed) finishes on the podium, so then everyone else is pushed back a position. Now while on paper it may seem easy to just "adjust the results" after the B sample being dirty, but now you have bonus and contingency programs in flux. Will the OEM's back track months later and pay up on all contingencies and bonuses to the other competitors, going back every position? For a lot of riders, that can be a significant amount of money between a podium spot and a fourth place spot. The TV time is lost, which is why the bonuses are higher and the advertising opportunity is lost for those sponsors. So some sponsors may not be willing to pay bonuses on "adjusted" finishes, because there's nothing in it for the investment.
2. What is Rider F takes out someone like, for example, Jason Anderson, and Anderson then loses the championship because of that one race? A rider who's tested dirty and should not even be on the track can affect the series outcome, though he never should have even been out there. I see that actually becoming a legal issue, where it could be argued that an "ineligible rider" was allowed to compete and in doing so, lost a rider $1M++....suing both the sanction that allowed Rider F to compete and suing Rider F himself.
3. How about if Rider F, who should not be allowed on the track because they did fail a drug test, injures another rider? What if it's a career ending injury? There's possible liability there I would think.
and lastly keep this in mind about allowing someone to compete after failing the A Sample....when a police officer is involved in a shooting or altercation, they're typically placed on some suspension/leave or administrative duty while an investigation takes place.
Just seems to me, and I am obviously not a lawyer, that in trying to pacify everyone, you could actually create potentially more problems than you solve.
Imagine if Rider F actually won a championship, to only later be stripped of it? I can hear the screams of "asterisk" to the 2nd place rider who gets the title "because he didn't actually win it."
Also the OEM and sponsors with be totally pissed because all opportunities for advertising or even wear the red plate have been lost. Going to promote it months after the fact?
Point is, lot more issues at play than only Rider F's points and money....Gee whiz, going to demand Rider F also ship back all the trophies too? Think the guy's behind them will even want them by that time?
Could it be because many people know that testing doesn't catch cheats unless they mess up or screw up?
They got one guy who tested clean and a few hours later tested off the charts. Like 5 times over normal limits. They didn't expect that..........but the testers used the "eye test" and got crafty.
Thats why the one guy hid out under the cage for 8 hours while the testers waited for him at his gym.
He was there hiding. Why was he hiding for a whole day when he was supposed to be there training with his trainer waiting for him to show up?
Listen to top trainers or what Mike Dolce calls Drug coaches, when they say that 99% of people know everything they have ever done their entire life. And When. They talk about what they did for each competition, for decades prior. People know..
Listen to the Mike Dolce podcast and/or Joe Rogan and they specifically talk about how The
"I don't know where this came from or how it got in my system" excuse can only be used by FIRST TIME extremely Naive womens fitness and bikinii chicks whos trainer has them on a "supplement protocol". They even said that even women quickly "Know they are using something", they just don't want to talk about it or how "Dat ass" and capped delts, appear so quickly.
The First time they start out with a " trainer" or what Mike Dolce calls, and I quote him here on his Podcast, ....Lets be completely honest and call it what it is, A Drug Coach.
They specifically talked about if there is any sport or competition where money, or endorsement deals, etc etc on the line, there is cheating in every sport, and some are using every advantage they can to try and win. Legal or not. Tested or not.
Wheeler mentioned he knew the same drug coaches some golfers used, Car racers, crossfit athletes, womens fitness athletes, etc etc etc. Top Names in all kinds of sports who are using all kinds of various things.
Tickle should have known these results even before Wada did to confirm WADA ir USADAs test results.
Every athlete knows how to do this. Even no name athletes and regular joes. And most tested athletes do this immediately.
In fact, they know their own test results before WADA or USADAs tests come back. Then they sit and wait for the good, or bad news.
And whoever mention Qatar or whatever, thats all irrelevant, alot of Wadas testing is at labs right here in the USA.
When an apple sticker says "Granny Smith Apples" should I be worried its laced with pseudo illegal drugs?
Or do people blame their Bananas for their booger sugar positive test?
I really like Oregano in my pizza sauce. Can people blame that also for THC?
Tickle could have simply known this was coming even before Wada did.
Ive been tested 5 times and had my resullts back before I was notified of anything.
In fact, I had my results back in 2 days for piss, 7 for blood. Tested athletes know whats coming down the pike long before it comes out from Wada. Or they should.
I think GuyB is taking the position (which I agree with) the rider shouldn’t be considered “guilty” until all things are played out, sample B and appeals.
Human error could have come into play in the failure (I don’t know how but when humans are involved it’s a possibility)
That being said, my proposal would be to change to this: sample A is tested in one lab on 1 day, if it fails, sample B is tested in another lab within 1 week and there should be a sample C held over for the lawsuit. The notification then would only be announced after the failure of a and b tested in 1 week by 2 different labs.
Ive always had my test results back in a few days and knew my results LONG before being notified about the A and B samples they took.
Most tested athletes know their results in the exact same manner.
Would they delay giving you the results if you failed? Your personal experience statement for yourself only goes from the standpoint of passing tests!
And for the record I’m of the opinion he ate something, knowingly or unknowingly! But am allowing room for error as a possibility
They only test the B sample if he appeals the A test..
There was no reason Tickle shouldnt have known this was coming. Maybe he did?
I've been tested 5 times, and knew my results at the latest 7-14 days for blood, and 3-5 business days for piss.
I can get my results for Piss from today by Monday. Maybe even this Friday. So can you.
The Penalty phase is overkill that needs to change
The Doping Code allows sports bodies to use WADA for testing and the sports body to manage the results; i.e., enforce the penalties if there is a positive test. That is the case here; the ball is in the FIM's court now. That seems to be one of the issues that people have, the indefiniteness of how to navigate that process. That issue is an FIM issue, not a WADA issue, at this point.
Note that with this very substance the FIM tried to cut Antony West some slack on the penalty. WADA appealed that to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). The FIM lost and CAS required the FIM to execute the penalty regime in the Code. In other words, the sporting body has some latitude in applying a penalty, but cannot ignore the Code.
There is more flexibility in the Code penalty structure now, although that flexibility also extends to a longer potential penalty. Note that the Code has two primary objectives, to deter/catch intentional cheaters and create clean competition. The latter value is why the Code is "no fault;" if you test positive in competition for a banned substance without a TUE you are deemed to have had an unfair advantage relative to other competitors without regard to your intent or innocence, and you at the very least lose the results of that event. Whether that is the extent of the penalty turns on what unfolds after (B test, findings on fault to assess the proper penalty from nothing more than loss of results up to a four year ban depending on culpability).
Here's where the rubber meets the road, and where maybe some improvement may be made. The FIM's version adoption of the Code and retention of results management means that although they cannot deviate from the penalties, they can expedite the process to suit the intense pace of racing across 25-30 events a year with multiple world championships at stake. They've not really down anything to that end, but simply stuck with a system that applies a provisional penalty and then allows months for the process in the best case scenario where both parties hit their deadlines. Moreover, according to hearsay from folks stuck in that queue, no one knows or gives guidance on the process.
I don't think there is a chance that the FIM ditches WADA or Feld ditches the FIM over this. But surely for the sake of all the riders subject to the FIM rules, the FIM can specify a real process that is tailored to motorcycle racing that resolves the penalty issue in short order, thus limiting the real world sanction of the provisional suspension for athletes who qualify for lesser penalties. What good would it do any athlete to find out s/he is only going to lose one event result in a determination after the duration of a provisional penalty has cost the athlete 20 starts? It strikes me that the fundamental unfairness of that is at the core of the statement from Broc's lawyer, even if that may be a thin reed to collaterally attack the FIM.
Apparently the FIM's experience in the woodshed cowed them (its current head of legal repped it in the West case before CAS). I think the powers that be are too lazy, or gunshy after the West case, to create a clear, expedited pathway with a single point of contact at the FIM to interface with. Stews case set up for them the perfect cover; the dude is probably going to be penalized in the end, so when we wrap the provisional penalty time into the final penalty, there's no prejudice from the provisional penalty in the end. I'm sorry, but that is the sort of due process that says "we're going to have a trial before we hang you"; it's no due process at all if in the end under the Code the athlete should only lose one event's results.
Pit Row
WADA doesnt care about anyone. Neither does the lab doing the tests. They test the piss and/or blood and there it is.
They couldn't care less if it is James Stewart, Broc Tickle, or the President. I'd say 99.9% chance none involved had even heard of Stew.
Or any of these people.
Keep in mind he is a professional, and so is the team he rides for. The onus should be on them to know 100% what they are putting in their bodies. Companies exist that will test your nutritional supplements for contamination. There are also reputable distributers of nutritional supplements. How many of the other riders did NOT pop for PEDS?
If the current punishment is severe, then don’t cheat. Be more careful of what you ingest if you know you are being tested. He could be straight up cheating, lying about it.
Oh wait, no athlete has ever lied about taking PEDs.
As Drew Blood was saying, The labs only see it as another sample to process.
Note: I know NASCAR is a much bigger organization, but they seem to have it really figured out as far as testing, punishment, and rehab. Can our sport do the same, without going the WADA route?
Over the span of five days, Spencer Gallagher won the Xfinity race at Talladega.
On May 1st, he was found to have violated NASCAR's substance abuse policy.
Today he was suspended indefinitely but will participate in NASCAR's Road to Recovery Program. That's a whole lot shorter time span than our athletes have to deal with.
NASCAR's list of banned substances sounds like it's similar to what our guys have to deal with. Everything from performance enhancers and masking agents to recreational drugs.
NASCAR also doesn't announce what substances drivers or crew member fail tests for. This allows the competitor the chance to have their B sample tested. Looking over past drivers who have failed, that news generally comes out...either from court documents (if it's being contested), or from the competitor. They control a bit more of the message.
Here's a link to a 2012 article regarding a failed test for AJ Allmendinger, who has since successfully participated in NASCAR's Road to Recovery program and returned to full-time racing. There's info in there on who does the testing (seems like a private lab), how many per week are tested, and how penalties are handled. It's also interesting that they test both drivers and crew members.
http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/8145313/nascar-substan…
Sometimes they do release the compound the guy tested for.
They are "mostly" looking for recreational and/or alcohol, or drugs that would cause impairment, and use lots of physical signs to determine who to test.
Allmendinger tested positive for "amphetamines" (On their list) and under his own admission he took a "Pill" so you gotta figure Adderall or a generic. Fike got popped for heroin, but that was outside the sport.
Ive seen nothing yet for this latest guy.
Mayfield tried hard to play the I didnt know part and didnt know that prescribed meds (Adderall) were controlled substances etc etc and that Pseudoephedrine was banned and that didn't work out too well.
Alot said Mark Martin was on juice for years, but I dont think anyone really cared or took notice.
1. If the test found banned substances, and the code doesn’t care how or why they’re there, then isn’t he ‘guilty’ already? Has there ever been a case of a test being wrong? Ever a case that you’ve heard of where sample B is clean? Ever been any athlete successfully argue their innocence?
2. Surely, therefore, the hearing is only to establish a penalty. In light of past cases, and CAS’ intervention when the penalty is light, there’s surely little chance of anything less than a lengthy ban. While you mention the loss of one event’s result, realistically that’s never going to happen is it?
3. So really, what difference does it make if the hearing isn’t as quick as some here would like?
Having the WADA issue discipline and sanctions to US-only riders, is equivalent to letting Russia issue the death penalty for US-only political violators. Of course everyone would say “Heck, they violated Russian law so that’s what they get.” That may seem a little extreme, but violations with the WADA are a virtual death sentence for any rider.
On 2 & 3, you may not be taking into account the changes to the penalty regime and what the hearing addresses. Once a positive test is confirmed, the sanction options include:
* Four years: (a) for a Specified Substance [as so identified on the WADA list) unless the rider can establish that
the violation was unintentional.
(b) for other than a Specified Substance if the FIM can show it was intentional.
The FIM Code defines intentional as: "The term therefore requires that the Rider or other Person engaged in conduct which he or she knew constituted an anti-doping rule violation or knew that there was a significant risk that the conduct might constitute or result in an anti-doping rule violation and manifestly disregarded that risk."
* Two Years: Where the four year penalty does not apply.
* Reprimand to Two Year suspension: Where a Specified Substance is at issue and the athlete establishes "No Significant Fault or Negligence."
So, yes, the FIM Code specifically provides for a sanction as little as a reprimand after hearing. I don't think a hard case could be done in a week, but surely the FIM can come up with a timely process that would accommodate the recognition of reduced penalties and a rider's legitimate expectation that his matter will be heard in such a manner than any reduction in penalty won't be rendered meaningless because the FIM sat on its hands and got on with it whenever it saw fit.
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