MX Sports & Electric Motorcycles

DannoJ919
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Holly, MI, USA
4/10/2018 8:27am
I understand the wanting to get it correct and wanting more data. The one issue I see with the data is if you do not allow them to race at LL or pro races you are not getting any of the best riders on them in competition. So you have data from old guys and younger guys that are not the highest level riders. A young up and comer wont sign with Alta when he cant race LL or AX or SX.

I could see vet classes at LL allowing electric a decent place to gather data because you may have some pretty good riders showing up on them and you can see how they stack up. If that's open and doesn't require bikes to be homologated.
King KTM
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4/12/2018 5:47pm
Q: IS THE 2018 ALTA REDSHIFT MXR BETTER THAN THE 2017 ALTA REDSHIFT MX?

A: You're damn right it is better. A whopping 25% increase in power.

Alta can achieve this in one year and you tools are questioning the decision to take time and see what class if any it belongs in. Suppose they are able to achieve this again in a year now it has 50% more power in 2 years? Has a big 5 ever achieved anything even close to a 25% power increase on a model in a single year? So let’s assume it’s equal to 250 last year and the AMA puts it in 250 class now a year later it’s 25% stronger. Everyone but Alta would be complaining about putting it in 250 class, just like everyone complains about the 450 clusterfuck. Jesus Christ the AMA is in a no win situation here no matter what they do it’s going to be wrong and piss people off.
Connor Holio
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4/12/2018 7:25pm
About 15-20 years ago the AMA allowed the 4-strokes into the 125cc and 250cc classes. And where did it get us? Only a few years later the 125cc class was dead, the 250cc class became the 450cc class, and the 250cc 4-strokes became faster than the 250cc 2-strokes.

With the 2018 Redshift MXR Alta put the Big 5 on notice. If they do not want to start making competitive electric motocross bikes, then Alta will sell as many of them as people are willing to buy, which seems like a lot. They are fun, fast, cheap to own, and can be ridden anywhere. They are here to stay.

Once the Big 5 catch up, the AMA will catch up as well. I am only curious which bikes, or perhaps which manufacturers, will fall victim to the electrification.

The Shop

Ted722
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4/12/2018 7:32pm
DC was on Pit Pass Moto this week. Go to 17:20 http://www.pitpassmoto.com/podcast/Davey_Coombs_04-10-18.mp3

DC's explanation: "It's an Open class for 2-stroke and 4-stroke motorcycles, it doesn't say it's an Open class for electric motorcycles."

I get the 250, 450 or even Open class ban as he has defined it, but he doesn't mention the Vet class. Is the Vet class under the same Open class rule structure?
Zoom
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4/13/2018 8:20am
Whymee wrote:
Ted722 wrote:
DC was on Pit Pass Moto this week. Go to 17:20 http://www.pitpassmoto.com/podcast/Davey_Coombs_04-10-18.mp3 DC's explanation: "It's an Open class for 2-stroke and 4-stroke motorcycles, it doesn't say...
DC was on Pit Pass Moto this week. Go to 17:20 http://www.pitpassmoto.com/podcast/Davey_Coombs_04-10-18.mp3

DC's explanation: "It's an Open class for 2-stroke and 4-stroke motorcycles, it doesn't say it's an Open class for electric motorcycles."

I get the 250, 450 or even Open class ban as he has defined it, but he doesn't mention the Vet class. Is the Vet class under the same Open class rule structure?
Yes...

All the 450 classes, Open classes and the Vet classes are defined as 122cc-Open cc. Click on the link below to see a description of each class as defined for the AMA Amateur Championship at Loretta Lynn's by MX Sports.


https://mxsports.com/pages/classes
motomike137
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4/13/2018 9:28am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2018 9:29am
Actually this thing probably goes beyond the big 5.5 OEM's The aftermarket for engine mods and trick parts has to be worried about this as well. These bikes represent a seismic shift for the industry. And to be honest I don't think I would ever miss oil changes, filter cleaning, top end rebuilds, etc. This is going to be an interesting story to watch.
4/13/2018 12:56pm
I usually tend to understand and agree with DC, but he knows that this is a step in the wrong direction towards the progression of the sport. Correction needs to be done in displacement in the I C E's and evolution will surly bring other forms of provided power to the rear wheel. We need to look out for the vitality of motocross. I will never understand why ALTA was not allowed to compete in the AMATEUR OPEN CLASS.
ACBraap
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4/13/2018 1:07pm
Ted722 wrote:
DC was on Pit Pass Moto this week. Go to 17:20 http://www.pitpassmoto.com/podcast/Davey_Coombs_04-10-18.mp3 DC's explanation: "It's an Open class for 2-stroke and 4-stroke motorcycles, it doesn't say...
DC was on Pit Pass Moto this week. Go to 17:20 http://www.pitpassmoto.com/podcast/Davey_Coombs_04-10-18.mp3

DC's explanation: "It's an Open class for 2-stroke and 4-stroke motorcycles, it doesn't say it's an Open class for electric motorcycles."

I get the 250, 450 or even Open class ban as he has defined it, but he doesn't mention the Vet class. Is the Vet class under the same Open class rule structure?
DC is right a lot of the time. This isn't one of them. Allowing e motos in open and vet classes is the perfect chance to avoid the problem caused with 4 stroke displacements. This decision looks like nothing but political pressure from IC producing brands. I really thought DC was a better dude than this.
shiman449
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4/13/2018 2:23pm
I would be interested to see the difference in laptimes between 4 Strokes, 2 Strokes and E Bikes. Why not just give them their own class for a year so we can at least witness the beginning of what some say is the future.
King KTM
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4/13/2018 3:15pm
shiman449 wrote:
I would be interested to see the difference in laptimes between 4 Strokes, 2 Strokes and E Bikes. Why not just give them their own class...
I would be interested to see the difference in laptimes between 4 Strokes, 2 Strokes and E Bikes. Why not just give them their own class for a year so we can at least witness the beginning of what some say is the future.
We have a winner!! Give them their own class.
Bry145
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4/13/2018 5:39pm
shiman449 wrote:
I would be interested to see the difference in laptimes between 4 Strokes, 2 Strokes and E Bikes. Why not just give them their own class...
I would be interested to see the difference in laptimes between 4 Strokes, 2 Strokes and E Bikes. Why not just give them their own class for a year so we can at least witness the beginning of what some say is the future.
King KTM wrote:
We have a winner!! Give them their own class.
Which class will they take away from the program at LL to create room? Do we need three female-specific classes if their slice of the pie is quite small?

An unintended consequence of adding an e-bike class would be riders who want to race LL going out and buying them. This would irritate the OEMs, as Alta would be taking a piece of the pie. That doesn't fit the plan!



Bry145
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4/13/2018 5:43pm
Actually this thing probably goes beyond the big 5.5 OEM's The aftermarket for engine mods and trick parts has to be worried about this as well...
Actually this thing probably goes beyond the big 5.5 OEM's The aftermarket for engine mods and trick parts has to be worried about this as well. These bikes represent a seismic shift for the industry. And to be honest I don't think I would ever miss oil changes, filter cleaning, top end rebuilds, etc. This is going to be an interesting story to watch.
Amateur motocross has been mismanaged, and as a result the pie is shrinking.

If e-bikes take over, the pie for exhaust manufacturers, hop-up shops, oil companies, and such will shrink further. This will trickle down to less advertising budget to keep magazines and websites alive and thriving.

Follow the money trail, or in our sport the vanishing money trail. Thank God for energy drinks, or else we might really be in trouble.

Could e-bikes and two-strokes save the day? Stay tuned...



Connor Holio
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4/13/2018 7:08pm
Do not worry about the dying industries. Nobody is missing landline telephone manufacturers, or are we?

With less money needed for maintenance, people will be able to ride more and buy more bikes. Graphics kits sales will take off, hey everyone will still want to look fast! I am now shopping for a custom graphics kit for my second Alta!
4/13/2018 7:25pm
good for noise issues, riding areas etc. still will never buy a ticket to watch them. just doesn't do it for me.. I could also see some crashes not knowing a bike/rider is there. for sure a market when the price drops to ride quietly. having said that, i like engines to sound like engines when racing.
yak651
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4/13/2018 7:38pm
shiman449 wrote:
I would be interested to see the difference in laptimes between 4 Strokes, 2 Strokes and E Bikes. Why not just give them their own class...
I would be interested to see the difference in laptimes between 4 Strokes, 2 Strokes and E Bikes. Why not just give them their own class for a year so we can at least witness the beginning of what some say is the future.
King KTM wrote:
We have a winner!! Give them their own class.
Are there really 40 people racing Altas that would like up at LL that would be true test? Can see it like the fly away GPs, 2-5 guys that are capable of riding the bike to it's potential and than 30 filler riders that wouldn't be a true measuring stick of the bike.
Bry145
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4/14/2018 7:50am
Do not worry about the dying industries. Nobody is missing landline telephone manufacturers, or are we? With less money needed for maintenance, people will be able...
Do not worry about the dying industries. Nobody is missing landline telephone manufacturers, or are we?

With less money needed for maintenance, people will be able to ride more and buy more bikes. Graphics kits sales will take off, hey everyone will still want to look fast! I am now shopping for a custom graphics kit for my second Alta!
I actually miss the landline days, as kids could be kids without carrying a phone around to make everyone aware of their whereabouts and what they were up to. Cell phones have damaged our society, social skills, attention spans, productivity at work, and the like. Paying $80/month to text message and make dumbass social media posts seems like a waste of money. A family paying $40/month for a landline seems like money well spent.

I have nothing against the Alta, but still feel the two-stroke is the best bike for the masses. Let's get an entry-level Alta at around 8K and chargeable via a 110 outlet and small Honda generator and sign me up!

Many industries will die with the loss of the Boomer generation. I'm not sure how the economy will continue on with the limited spending power of Gen. X, Y, and Z.






Johnny Depp
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4/14/2018 8:54am
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
Bry145
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4/14/2018 9:13am
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they...
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
Call me a cynic, but I don't see riders (on average) being several seconds a lap faster on an Alta vs. two and four-stroke bikes that they know and love.

I can go ~5 seconds a lap faster on a 450 than on my YZ250. I do not see the same thing happening on an e-bike, but I could be wrong. I'm also a Vet rider and don't want to go very fast! I work with my hands and a crash could cost thousands in lost wages. That's my story and I'm sticking to it if you ever blow past me at a practice day!

I think LL/MX Sports/Feld want to contain e-bike technology as it has the potential to upset the status-quo in the industry. Many will agree that the four-stroke revolution negatively affected the status-quo, in that equipment became more expensive, speeds higher, and injuries more severe. Maybe a switch from four-strokes to e-bikes will increase costs and speeds even higher, shrinking the sport further and affecting stakeholders' bottom lines.






Johnny Depp
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4/14/2018 3:06pm Edited Date/Time 4/14/2018 3:10pm
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they...
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
Bry145 wrote:
Call me a cynic, but I don't see riders (on average) being several seconds a lap faster on an Alta vs. two and four-stroke bikes that...
Call me a cynic, but I don't see riders (on average) being several seconds a lap faster on an Alta vs. two and four-stroke bikes that they know and love.

I can go ~5 seconds a lap faster on a 450 than on my YZ250. I do not see the same thing happening on an e-bike, but I could be wrong. I'm also a Vet rider and don't want to go very fast! I work with my hands and a crash could cost thousands in lost wages. That's my story and I'm sticking to it if you ever blow past me at a practice day!

I think LL/MX Sports/Feld want to contain e-bike technology as it has the potential to upset the status-quo in the industry. Many will agree that the four-stroke revolution negatively affected the status-quo, in that equipment became more expensive, speeds higher, and injuries more severe. Maybe a switch from four-strokes to e-bikes will increase costs and speeds even higher, shrinking the sport further and affecting stakeholders' bottom lines.






Yeah, no chance a 350 with power comparable to an Alta that delivered all of its max power straight off of 0 rpms, that didn't need a clutch nor to be shifted, and handled like a 125 only easier to ride than anything else, and hooked up and rarely spun, would improve anyone's lap times over a 450. Smile
ACBraap
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4/14/2018 6:18pm
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they...
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
Bry145 wrote:
Call me a cynic, but I don't see riders (on average) being several seconds a lap faster on an Alta vs. two and four-stroke bikes that...
Call me a cynic, but I don't see riders (on average) being several seconds a lap faster on an Alta vs. two and four-stroke bikes that they know and love.

I can go ~5 seconds a lap faster on a 450 than on my YZ250. I do not see the same thing happening on an e-bike, but I could be wrong. I'm also a Vet rider and don't want to go very fast! I work with my hands and a crash could cost thousands in lost wages. That's my story and I'm sticking to it if you ever blow past me at a practice day!

I think LL/MX Sports/Feld want to contain e-bike technology as it has the potential to upset the status-quo in the industry. Many will agree that the four-stroke revolution negatively affected the status-quo, in that equipment became more expensive, speeds higher, and injuries more severe. Maybe a switch from four-strokes to e-bikes will increase costs and speeds even higher, shrinking the sport further and affecting stakeholders' bottom lines.






The sport is already shrinking. The OEMs are trying to increase their share of a shrinking pie. The question is WHY is the sport shrinking, and could electric bikes (or two strokes) change that? My opinion based on observation, is that a huge impact on the sport is the lack of areas to ride. Why do places get closed? Noise, if not THE issue, is always at the least a significant issue. The way I see it, is a new track that was actually permitted by the county here in WA, was then challenged in court. The biggest issue by the greenies? noise. I say resubmit the permit application, for an ebike only track.

Bringing back 125 like machines would also be a huge thing, but I think we need to look at it and ask if it needs to be a 125cc two stroke, or simply a lower cost, lighter weight, simple to work on bike.
Bry145
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4/14/2018 6:46pm
ACBraap wrote:
The sport is already shrinking. The OEMs are trying to increase their share of a shrinking pie. The question is WHY is the sport shrinking, and...
The sport is already shrinking. The OEMs are trying to increase their share of a shrinking pie. The question is WHY is the sport shrinking, and could electric bikes (or two strokes) change that? My opinion based on observation, is that a huge impact on the sport is the lack of areas to ride. Why do places get closed? Noise, if not THE issue, is always at the least a significant issue. The way I see it, is a new track that was actually permitted by the county here in WA, was then challenged in court. The biggest issue by the greenies? noise. I say resubmit the permit application, for an ebike only track.

Bringing back 125 like machines would also be a huge thing, but I think we need to look at it and ask if it needs to be a 125cc two stroke, or simply a lower cost, lighter weight, simple to work on bike.
The noise issue was made worse exponentially by four-strokes.

The sport is shrinking due to cost and generational turnover. Younger generations do not have the same purchasing power and means to go riding/racing. And the sport became more expensive during and after the 1997-2005 boom, as everyone wanted a bigger slice of the expanding pie. Everyone includes promoters, OEMs, the aftermarket, ect.

Bikes tend to cost 8K-10K. A day of racing is $100 in entry fees alone. This isn't within reach of many lower-income folks. Back in 1998 or so, a bike could be had for 5K and $50 would cover a day of racing. Is everyone's after-tax pay 100% higher in 2018 than 1998?

E-bikes can help, but must be priced within reach of common folk. An e-bike that runs like a 125 and costs 6K could sell like crazy. Offering a BMX style track for such bikes in residential areas could be huge. Basic wheels, tires, and suspension components could lower the price.

In the meantime, we should ride affordable and "quiet" two-strokes. Mandate longer mufflers to keep the noise down near homes.

When I sold my house my dog and I camped out at an RV park near Canyon MX in Peoria, AZ. Even being at least a mile away, I could still hear the four-strokes. This is a huge problem.






ML512
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4/14/2018 6:54pm
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they...
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
Couple seconds a lap faster? What are you huffing? Cause that wasn’t the case when we tested it.
Johnny Depp
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4/14/2018 7:29pm Edited Date/Time 4/14/2018 7:31pm
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they...
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
ML512 wrote:
Couple seconds a lap faster? What are you huffing? Cause that wasn’t the case when we tested it.
I must have missed that comparison test with lap times? My bad. Wink Got a link?
Bry145
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4/15/2018 1:29pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 1:35pm
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they...
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
ML512 wrote:
Couple seconds a lap faster? What are you huffing? Cause that wasn’t the case when we tested it.
I must have missed that comparison test with lap times? My bad. Wink Got a link?
If Vital's test confirms that lap times for the Alta are slower than gas bikes, why not allow them to compete in the vet classes at LL?

Are they being banned to eliminate the chance of a ringer (possibly a long haired Alta test rider rider from Butler, PA) winning a Vet class at LL and creating a PR bonanza?

"Oh the humanity..."

Bry145
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4/15/2018 1:36pm


Brad460
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4/15/2018 1:37pm
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they...
I have no doubt that every OEM has purchased at least one Alta, and is now doing reverse engineering, most likely the Chinese too. When they tested back to back with their current offerings and realized that they were several seconds a lap faster, and had no problem with the battery lasting enough for MX, they probably wet themselves and dialed up Davey on the cell asap and bought some insurance protection.
ML512 wrote:
Couple seconds a lap faster? What are you huffing? Cause that wasn’t the case when we tested it.
It was actually 5 seconds faster..Whistling
Connor Holio
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4/15/2018 8:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 8:43pm
Bry145 wrote:
I actually miss the landline days, as kids could be kids without carrying a phone around to make everyone aware of their whereabouts and what they...
I actually miss the landline days, as kids could be kids without carrying a phone around to make everyone aware of their whereabouts and what they were up to. Cell phones have damaged our society, social skills, attention spans, productivity at work, and the like. Paying $80/month to text message and make dumbass social media posts seems like a waste of money. A family paying $40/month for a landline seems like money well spent.

I have nothing against the Alta, but still feel the two-stroke is the best bike for the masses. Let's get an entry-level Alta at around 8K and chargeable via a 110 outlet and small Honda generator and sign me up!

Many industries will die with the loss of the Boomer generation. I'm not sure how the economy will continue on with the limited spending power of Gen. X, Y, and Z.






Bry145
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4/16/2018 2:42am
A new YZ250 can be had for 7.5K.

A used one can be had for 3-4K.

Until e-bike pricing gets close to this, I'll stick to my YZ. They are the best bang for the buck for working class folks.
Connor Holio
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4/16/2018 5:59am
Bry145 wrote:
A new YZ250 can be had for 7.5K. A used one can be had for 3-4K. Until e-bike pricing gets close to this, I'll stick to...
A new YZ250 can be had for 7.5K.

A used one can be had for 3-4K.

Until e-bike pricing gets close to this, I'll stick to my YZ. They are the best bang for the buck for working class folks.
If the YZ250 is for the Working class, then the electric bikes must be the best bang for the buck for the Riding class -- folks who would rather ride their bikes rather than work on them. ;-)

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