The death of our sport

doghouse
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Virginia Beach, VA, USA
3/15/2018 9:04am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
Titan1 wrote:
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion. It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a...
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion.

It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a lesser extent even an A class rider can't be competitive against 4 strokes on a 2 stroke...Common sense says that isn't even remotely true. In the C, and B classes (of which 90% of riders probably are) its probably 95% rider and like 5% bike...meaning its not the bike that's making them go slow.

The fact that "Johnny C class" incorrectly thinks he can't race on a 2 stroke and be competitive...doesn't mean its 4 strokes killing the sport...its ignorance, and keeping up with the jones's that's killing the sport more than the 4 strokes.

"Johnny C class" wants to have the "latest and greatest", and doesn't want to show up to the track with a bike that isn't perceived to be as cool as the one the guy pitted next to him is riding. So they don't race/ride because they can't afford the $10K 450, with the $1200 exhaust, $200 graphics, and $800 suspension...when the truth of the matter is that they wouldn't go any slower if they bought a 5 year old YZ250 for $3K, and put $2K into it to freshen it up...
Yeah, this is really it. I'd add the manufacturers create a lot of it by crowding the 2 strokes out at the pro level via displacement advantage to create the demand for what they want to offer. So people think that's what they need.

A good rider on a 2t 250 will smoke some scrub on a 4t 450.
BobPA
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3/15/2018 9:28am
Uncle Tony wrote:
Bob I didn't believe it either, I looked it up and there are a few Ducati monsters with a MSRP under 10 grand,
No shit, I will eat my words on that one haha
TeamGreen
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Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
3/15/2018 9:36am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
Titan1 wrote:
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion. It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a...
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion.

It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a lesser extent even an A class rider can't be competitive against 4 strokes on a 2 stroke...Common sense says that isn't even remotely true. In the C, and B classes (of which 90% of riders probably are) its probably 95% rider and like 5% bike...meaning its not the bike that's making them go slow.

The fact that "Johnny C class" incorrectly thinks he can't race on a 2 stroke and be competitive...doesn't mean its 4 strokes killing the sport...its ignorance, and keeping up with the jones's that's killing the sport more than the 4 strokes.

"Johnny C class" wants to have the "latest and greatest", and doesn't want to show up to the track with a bike that isn't perceived to be as cool as the one the guy pitted next to him is riding. So they don't race/ride because they can't afford the $10K 450, with the $1200 exhaust, $200 graphics, and $800 suspension...when the truth of the matter is that they wouldn't go any slower if they bought a 5 year old YZ250 for $3K, and put $2K into it to freshen it up...
Mr. Speaker, I'd like to concur with the majority of the content spoken by the gentleman from Saturn's cryovolcanic moon. I yield back the balance of my time.
TeamGreen
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Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
3/15/2018 9:37am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
BobPA wrote:
Show me a race ready Ducati that you can buy for less that $10K. Better yet, show me a brand new Ducati you can buy for...
Show me a race ready Ducati that you can buy for less that $10K. Better yet, show me a brand new Ducati you can buy for less than $10K
Scrambler: aka, the Wheelie Master.

The Shop

Bramlett321
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Texarkana, TX, USA
3/15/2018 9:43am
I was listening to Jim Holley this morning on the Pulpmx show and he was talking about the injuries and more specifically Cole Seely. One thing...
I was listening to Jim Holley this morning on the Pulpmx show and he was talking about the injuries and more specifically Cole Seely. One thing he pointed out was the two vs four stroke debate and the safety of our sport, had Cole been on a 250 2 stroke he would not have attempted the quad that he saw a few other guys doing. It would have been triple single and then on your merry way to the next obstacle. That's the argument we face right there, some will say yes he'd have went for it anyway but we're in this pickle now and how do we get our asses out of it.
BobPA wrote:
Pure and utter speculation. How in the world does he know he would not have attempted that quad? You two stroke guys need to stop taking...
Pure and utter speculation. How in the world does he know he would not have attempted that quad? You two stroke guys need to stop taking shots of premix in the morning. Pretty soon you will be claiming that cancer would be eliminated is two strokes ruled the Earth.

PS: I own more two strokes than 4
Hey man calm your ass down, I was just saying what I heard. It's all fukn speculation and I own four and two strokes...I could give a rats ass what you ride.
NorCal 50+
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Grass Valley, CA, USA
3/15/2018 9:50am
It makes sense that with heavier, much more powerful bikes that are actually easier to ride, people are going to get hurt more.
When I saw that video of Grant recently where he jumped about the length of the stadium in two jumps, and he was more like an airplane than a motorcycle- I was glad I am not trying to race on these modern bikes and tracks. Especially when he faced the landing. We're starting to exceed what the human body can handle.
Racing has always been dangerous but in the old days the tracks were slower, they didn't spend 60% of the time in the air, and the bikes were lighter and less powerful. I don't have any solid data, but the gnarly injuries seem to be much more frequent these days.
Dtat720
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Flowood, MS, USA
3/15/2018 9:57am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
Titan1 wrote:
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion. It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a...
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion.

It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a lesser extent even an A class rider can't be competitive against 4 strokes on a 2 stroke...Common sense says that isn't even remotely true. In the C, and B classes (of which 90% of riders probably are) its probably 95% rider and like 5% bike...meaning its not the bike that's making them go slow.

The fact that "Johnny C class" incorrectly thinks he can't race on a 2 stroke and be competitive...doesn't mean its 4 strokes killing the sport...its ignorance, and keeping up with the jones's that's killing the sport more than the 4 strokes.

"Johnny C class" wants to have the "latest and greatest", and doesn't want to show up to the track with a bike that isn't perceived to be as cool as the one the guy pitted next to him is riding. So they don't race/ride because they can't afford the $10K 450, with the $1200 exhaust, $200 graphics, and $800 suspension...when the truth of the matter is that they wouldn't go any slower if they bought a 5 year old YZ250 for $3K, and put $2K into it to freshen it up...
doghouse wrote:
Yeah, this is really it. I'd add the manufacturers create a lot of it by crowding the 2 strokes out at the pro level via displacement...
Yeah, this is really it. I'd add the manufacturers create a lot of it by crowding the 2 strokes out at the pro level via displacement advantage to create the demand for what they want to offer. So people think that's what they need.

A good rider on a 2t 250 will smoke some scrub on a 4t 450.
I won several motos and a few overalls on my 03 RM250 2T lined up against new 450’s, in AX and outdoors. To say they arent competitive or cant be won on is ridiculous. Never even got one holeshot, but i won every single corner...
BobPA
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3/15/2018 10:22am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2018 10:24am
I was listening to Jim Holley this morning on the Pulpmx show and he was talking about the injuries and more specifically Cole Seely. One thing...
I was listening to Jim Holley this morning on the Pulpmx show and he was talking about the injuries and more specifically Cole Seely. One thing he pointed out was the two vs four stroke debate and the safety of our sport, had Cole been on a 250 2 stroke he would not have attempted the quad that he saw a few other guys doing. It would have been triple single and then on your merry way to the next obstacle. That's the argument we face right there, some will say yes he'd have went for it anyway but we're in this pickle now and how do we get our asses out of it.
BobPA wrote:
Pure and utter speculation. How in the world does he know he would not have attempted that quad? You two stroke guys need to stop taking...
Pure and utter speculation. How in the world does he know he would not have attempted that quad? You two stroke guys need to stop taking shots of premix in the morning. Pretty soon you will be claiming that cancer would be eliminated is two strokes ruled the Earth.

PS: I own more two strokes than 4
Hey man calm your ass down, I was just saying what I heard. It's all fukn speculation and I own four and two strokes...I could give...
Hey man calm your ass down, I was just saying what I heard. It's all fukn speculation and I own four and two strokes...I could give a rats ass what you ride.
Bro, do not tell me what to do. I'll have a Jeffro like meltdown if I have to Woohoo
doghouse
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3/15/2018 10:24am
BobPA wrote:
Pure and utter speculation. How in the world does he know he would not have attempted that quad? You two stroke guys need to stop taking...
Pure and utter speculation. How in the world does he know he would not have attempted that quad? You two stroke guys need to stop taking shots of premix in the morning. Pretty soon you will be claiming that cancer would be eliminated is two strokes ruled the Earth.

PS: I own more two strokes than 4
Hey man calm your ass down, I was just saying what I heard. It's all fukn speculation and I own four and two strokes...I could give...
Hey man calm your ass down, I was just saying what I heard. It's all fukn speculation and I own four and two strokes...I could give a rats ass what you ride.
BobPA wrote:
Bro, do not tell me what to do. I'll have a Jeffro like meltdown if I have to Woohoo
Bramlett321
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3/15/2018 10:26am
Dtat720 wrote:
I won several motos and a few overalls on my 03 RM250 2T lined up against new 450’s, in AX and outdoors. To say they arent...
I won several motos and a few overalls on my 03 RM250 2T lined up against new 450’s, in AX and outdoors. To say they arent competitive or cant be won on is ridiculous. Never even got one holeshot, but i won every single corner...
Titans last paragraph is absolutely on the money. I've done the same damn thing in the past when I should have just gotten me a nice little RM250 and created my own bad ass machine. I race a '16 300 in moto a lot and my group ribs the shit out of me for even being on a two stroke lol......maybe I need new friends.
BobPA
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3/15/2018 10:30am
Hey man calm your ass down, I was just saying what I heard. It's all fukn speculation and I own four and two strokes...I could give...
Hey man calm your ass down, I was just saying what I heard. It's all fukn speculation and I own four and two strokes...I could give a rats ass what you ride.
BobPA wrote:
Bro, do not tell me what to do. I'll have a Jeffro like meltdown if I have to Woohoo
doghouse wrote:
[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/13t2OTCFzCqJbO/giphy.gif[/img]
Watched that three days ago...."has the whole world gone crazy? I said mark it zero"
doghouse
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3/15/2018 10:35am
BobPA wrote:
Watched that three days ago...."has the whole world gone crazy? I said mark it zero"
lol. No one here gives a shit about the rules.
nd54
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Fishkill, NY, USA
3/15/2018 10:37am
Every situation is different but I have question of what people are seeing at the local level. As the rider gets older (30 plus) and things in there personal life change (house, wife, kids, etc) and they don't race as much anymore (for various reasons). Are they getting replaced at a close to even rate by the younger (17-27yr old) group. I remember when life at younger age was simpler I didn't mind spending all day Sunday at the track. As I got older the ROI was not there as much. Still ride and go to open practices as much as I can but other things in life are just as important now. If new people are not coming into the sport as fast as they are leaving the overall health of the dirt bikes will be hard to maintain.
SmokinJoe439
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Renton, WA, USA
3/15/2018 11:02am
A few years ago was like 2012 friend wanted to do a big race at washougal in the 250/450 B class.

Douche bag guy who calls your number to the gate starts talking shit. Saying the near stock 06 cr 250 he was riding was like bringing a knife to a gun fight. My friend got 3rd overall went 2nd n 3rd for his motos and he hadn't ridden in a long time wasn't even his bike borrowed it from my other friend.

TJMX947
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Indian Trail, NC, USA
3/15/2018 11:29am
I think the two and four stroke debate more so should be the cost to get your foot in the door debate. Lets say we control for all motocross tracks safety the price of entry has gone up.

My buddy and I were talking today. In 1998 he was borrowing a 1996 YZ125 from the Yamaha shop he worked at while his 94 was having a tranny issue. Both bikes got stolen. The owner made him pay back the $2500 the 1996 was priced at. He then bought a used 1997 YZ125 the shop took in on trade for $2500. He paid them both off within a year while making $5.15/hour. $2500 in 1998 equates to approximately $3800 in 2018 money. For $3800 today you'll buy a 2 - 3 year old 250F that needs a lot of work. You're more than likely buying a used 125 and sinking a grand into it to get on the track for $3800.

My point is that once upon a time your money bought you more and put you on the track easier. Now a kid working at a Yamaha shop can't afford to buy one of them on minimum wage. You're kind of left buying a 5 year old bike that needs the attention of someone who isn't just starting out.
billyp330
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Dorset, OH, USA
3/15/2018 11:29am
Titan1 wrote:
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion. It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a...
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion.

It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a lesser extent even an A class rider can't be competitive against 4 strokes on a 2 stroke...Common sense says that isn't even remotely true. In the C, and B classes (of which 90% of riders probably are) its probably 95% rider and like 5% bike...meaning its not the bike that's making them go slow.

The fact that "Johnny C class" incorrectly thinks he can't race on a 2 stroke and be competitive...doesn't mean its 4 strokes killing the sport...its ignorance, and keeping up with the jones's that's killing the sport more than the 4 strokes.

"Johnny C class" wants to have the "latest and greatest", and doesn't want to show up to the track with a bike that isn't perceived to be as cool as the one the guy pitted next to him is riding. So they don't race/ride because they can't afford the $10K 450, with the $1200 exhaust, $200 graphics, and $800 suspension...when the truth of the matter is that they wouldn't go any slower if they bought a 5 year old YZ250 for $3K, and put $2K into it to freshen it up...
I love those rider to bike ratios....lol

Its ironic that so many 2 stroke lovers say how inferior their beloved 2 strokes are to the 4 strokes, then can't understand why OEMs and elite racing teams push for them..

Also, find it weird that people on here keep mentioning this peer pressure to have the latest greatest or "coolest" 4 stroke bike when many seem to put a higher value and cool factor on old 2 strokes now a days.
billyp330
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3/15/2018 11:33am
TJMX947 wrote:
I think the two and four stroke debate more so should be the cost to get your foot in the door debate. Lets say we control...
I think the two and four stroke debate more so should be the cost to get your foot in the door debate. Lets say we control for all motocross tracks safety the price of entry has gone up.

My buddy and I were talking today. In 1998 he was borrowing a 1996 YZ125 from the Yamaha shop he worked at while his 94 was having a tranny issue. Both bikes got stolen. The owner made him pay back the $2500 the 1996 was priced at. He then bought a used 1997 YZ125 the shop took in on trade for $2500. He paid them both off within a year while making $5.15/hour. $2500 in 1998 equates to approximately $3800 in 2018 money. For $3800 today you'll buy a 2 - 3 year old 250F that needs a lot of work. You're more than likely buying a used 125 and sinking a grand into it to get on the track for $3800.

My point is that once upon a time your money bought you more and put you on the track easier. Now a kid working at a Yamaha shop can't afford to buy one of them on minimum wage. You're kind of left buying a 5 year old bike that needs the attention of someone who isn't just starting out.
Where are you guys buying your bikes from? For $3800 I can get a nice used 2 or 4 stroke of any cc size I want that will be ready to race without anything other then a good bolt check, oil change, and filter cleaning.
Bry145
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Bridgeville, PA, USA
3/15/2018 12:09pm
The cost of new four-strokes isn't necessarily the issue. The cost of rebuilding those bikes can be a big issue for riders with limited mechanical ability and cashflow. One can rebuild a two-stroke by putting in a little OT at work. One could spend a down payment on a car or small home rebuilding a thumper. That hurts those of limited means.

I think the real issue with the four-strokes are the speeds and jumps the bikes are capable of. The crashes and injuries tend to be more severe. Why take a sport that is dangerous and make it more dangerous? How does this benefit the participants and industry?

Once at a local indoor track I was doing a moto and saw a young guy on a YZ250f with his elbows down and almost stopping in the corners. He was surely a beginner, but still doing all the jumps. Lo and behold he ragdolled a few minutes later on a single to tabletop. I had to help his dad load up his bike, and felt bad for both of them. The young guy looked to have dislocated his shoulder.

I don't think the kid would have been jumping everything on a 125, and may have kept it on two-wheels while building skills and confidence. Maybe, maybe not...



3/15/2018 12:29pm
moscrop940 wrote:
I was scrolling through insta today and was gutted to see this [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/03/14/249395/s1200_IMG_7139.jpg[/img] Those guys have been around forever. Always a great "mom and pop" feel...
I was scrolling through insta today and was gutted to see this



Those guys have been around forever. Always a great "mom and pop" feel, and helped out a shit ton of riders. They also put on a free private rental at Glen Helen once a month....no strings attached, just show up and they covered the bill.

Scary shit when we start seeing guys like this closing their doors

I saw Richard B posted it on facebook and IG then checked my email. Such a bummer. 46 years and gone.
ford832
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N.S., CA
3/15/2018 12:36pm
agn5009 wrote:
That's why harescrambles, GNCC's etc seem to be doing better than MX. Pay about the same amount (maybe even less depending where you're racing) and race...
That's why harescrambles, GNCC's etc seem to be doing better than MX. Pay about the same amount (maybe even less depending where you're racing) and race for 2-3 hours. I raced a lot of MX back in the day but honestly I got tired of showing up, practice for 10 minutes, sit a few hours, race for 10 minutes, sit a few hours and race for 10 more minutes. I started doing HS races and had so much more fun. Show up, race 2-3 hours then head home. It's much more racer friendly.
This exactly.
TJMX947
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3/15/2018 12:38pm
billyp330 wrote:
Where are you guys buying your bikes from? For $3800 I can get a nice used 2 or 4 stroke of any cc size I want...
Where are you guys buying your bikes from? For $3800 I can get a nice used 2 or 4 stroke of any cc size I want that will be ready to race without anything other then a good bolt check, oil change, and filter cleaning.
I'm sure its a market to market thing but down here I feel $3800 for the beginner is kind of a hard place to be. If you luck up and find a clean 250F that's about two years old you might be ok. A one year old 250F is 5k for any color other than orange.

This price point IMO is more troublesome for the 125 buyer. I see a ton of ragged 125s that were actually raced (and raced hard) out there as compared to a 250F a kid bought because he likes Eli Tomac, or someone who decided to try racing but its not for them, or a practice rider type).

For guys like you and me $3800 buys you a good 2012 - 2014 YZ250, a new set of tires, and a new top end that we install ourselves and we can go race, ride, or just stare at the bike. Or you could get a 3 year old 450 in pretty good shape (I sold a 2014 CRF450R with 15 legit hours on it last fall for $4500).

WCRider
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3/15/2018 12:44pm
I think it's a sociologic question...
early
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3/15/2018 12:55pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2018 12:57pm
agn5009 wrote:
That's why harescrambles, GNCC's etc seem to be doing better than MX. Pay about the same amount (maybe even less depending where you're racing) and race...
That's why harescrambles, GNCC's etc seem to be doing better than MX. Pay about the same amount (maybe even less depending where you're racing) and race for 2-3 hours. I raced a lot of MX back in the day but honestly I got tired of showing up, practice for 10 minutes, sit a few hours, race for 10 minutes, sit a few hours and race for 10 more minutes. I started doing HS races and had so much more fun. Show up, race 2-3 hours then head home. It's much more racer friendly.
ford832 wrote:
This exactly.
Is the growth of gncc/harescramles in the 16-25 or 25+ age range. I would imagine its mostly the latter which isn't great for motocycling in general but maybe it keeps guys on bikes longer which improves their chances of getting their kids into riding.
billyp330
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Dorset, OH, USA
3/15/2018 2:42pm
TJMX947 wrote:
I'm sure its a market to market thing but down here I feel $3800 for the beginner is kind of a hard place to be. If...
I'm sure its a market to market thing but down here I feel $3800 for the beginner is kind of a hard place to be. If you luck up and find a clean 250F that's about two years old you might be ok. A one year old 250F is 5k for any color other than orange.

This price point IMO is more troublesome for the 125 buyer. I see a ton of ragged 125s that were actually raced (and raced hard) out there as compared to a 250F a kid bought because he likes Eli Tomac, or someone who decided to try racing but its not for them, or a practice rider type).

For guys like you and me $3800 buys you a good 2012 - 2014 YZ250, a new set of tires, and a new top end that we install ourselves and we can go race, ride, or just stare at the bike. Or you could get a 3 year old 450 in pretty good shape (I sold a 2014 CRF450R with 15 legit hours on it last fall for $4500).

I havnt looked up bikes for sale in NC but i find it hard to believe that people are wanting $3800 for 125s that are not in good enough shape for a beginner to ride. I think you are putting too high of standards on a bike that a beginner requires. Couple yrs ago one of my buddies deicded he wanted to get into riding and knew nothing about bikes at all so i went with him to look at a few. He ended up buying a ratted out kx125 (think it was a 2000) that i adivsed him to buy bc it was only $1k. I told him him we could put $500 into for all new bearings and some suspension work to freshen it up (i always do compression test on 2 strokes before buying) and it would be a good bike. He bought it and has rode it the last 2 yrs with no complaints at all without every doing anything more then an oil change.

No way Id be ok with riding that bike without freshing up bearings and suspension but thats bc i actually jump and ride a bike at a lot different pace then he does so any bike i ride has to be in a lot better shape then what he requires.

Funny story about that too is the first time he hoped on it he about shit his pants and said its crazy how much power it had. I laughed my ass off

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