is anyone a better rider on a 450?

305FC250
Profile picture for user 305FC250
Posts
427
Joined
9/18/2016
Location
Miami, FL, USA
305FC250 8/15/2017 1:59pm
8/15/2017 1:59pm
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
Giygas 8/15/2017 2:05pm
8/15/2017 2:05pm
305FC250 wrote:
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the...
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
That's a very good point. Personally, I'll never try to race with the pros on Saturdays, so I love being a lazy rider. "Ringing the living shit" out of a bike isn't fun to me.
Jrewing
Profile picture for user Jrewing
Posts
2863
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
AU
Jrewing 8/15/2017 2:06pm
8/15/2017 2:06pm
Time between rebuilds is awesome on 450's
Aceofspades 8/15/2017 2:25pm
8/15/2017 2:25pm
If my rmz450 weighed 25 pounds less it would be perfect. That weight is murder on slippery terrain when your 45 years old.

The Shop

See All »
Gukamonster
Profile picture for user Gukamonster
Posts
554
Joined
3/23/2011
Location
Gigantic, CK
Gukamonster 8/15/2017 2:36pm
8/15/2017 2:36pm
The 450 in the right hands is the ultimate weapon around a motocross track for the world's best riders. It becomes even more of an advantage with things like very long straights, sandy steep uphills or really long starts. It's definitely not the best for everyone in all cases though. The bikes need respect, often riders pull farther back from their maximum to ride them while still going 90% as fast. This contributes to long term skill fade though unless you are a very attentive rider and dedicated to technique improvement.

450s are getting better all the time, but I hate the weight, inferior braking abilities / distance and they are probably the worst type of bike to get in a huge ass high MPH swapping wreck on.

The bike that no one has mentioned yet is a 300cc two stroke. I like this currently because it's way better than a 250 two stroke, less of a gap to a 450 and still has the light weight. I have the '11 250SX with the 300 motocross kit, you can ride it similar to a 450. Not sure what the rare TM 300MX machine is like.

I would really like to see KTM build a new ground up 500cc two stroke. With their vibration-cutting-counterbalancer, programmable ignitions, modern brakes and ergos they could probably build a machine superior to any 450.
Titan1
Profile picture for user Titan1
Posts
9482
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
Titan1 8/15/2017 2:42pm
8/15/2017 2:42pm
305FC250 wrote:
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the...
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
I'm not sure I buy the "unless you are riding a bike to its 100% maximum potential" you don't need a bigger bike.

I'm certain I don't ride my 450 to it's maximum potential...and I couldn't ride my 250f to its maximum potential either. But I'm far easier on my 450's motor than I was on my 250's motor (as evidenced by the rebuild costs on all of them that I've owned). Riding a bike wide open is way to expensive...AND...not necessarily faster, anyway.

Never mind the fact that a 450 suits my riding style better (I ride lower in the RPM range...always have...that doesn't work well on 250's...it works GREAT on 450's).

Lots of reasons to own a 450 besides being able to ride a 250f to its 100% maximum potential.

Though I will agree with you, that learning to ride on a 450 hampers skill development. I'm glad I started riding in the two stroke days...when I had no choice but to ride them.
carl-h
Profile picture for user carl-h
Posts
53
Joined
8/18/2015
Location
GB
carl-h 8/15/2017 2:46pm
8/15/2017 2:46pm
I went from a 250 two stroke to a 450. Loved it at first, then it began to feel heavy. I always felt like the bike was riding me rather than the other way round. I barely ever opened it up properly. Was nice to be able to leave it in third but it got boring.

Ended up selling it for a 125. I'm probably slower but it feels 10x faster! I don't struggle on the jumps as I've never really had much confidence anyway jump wise so I never really used to send the 450. Corners the 125 is amazing. I can't explain the difference in weight it's just night and day better.

For some reason I'm never comfortable revving a 4 stroke all the time, which is why I've never enjoyed a 250f if I've had a go on my mates. The 450 suites that style. But I'm fine revving a 2 stroke it feels normal to let it sing.
305FC250
Profile picture for user 305FC250
Posts
427
Joined
9/18/2016
Location
Miami, FL, USA
305FC250 8/15/2017 3:09pm
8/15/2017 3:09pm
305FC250 wrote:
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the...
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
Titan1 wrote:
I'm not sure I buy the "unless you are riding a bike to its 100% maximum potential" you don't need a bigger bike. I'm certain I...
I'm not sure I buy the "unless you are riding a bike to its 100% maximum potential" you don't need a bigger bike.

I'm certain I don't ride my 450 to it's maximum potential...and I couldn't ride my 250f to its maximum potential either. But I'm far easier on my 450's motor than I was on my 250's motor (as evidenced by the rebuild costs on all of them that I've owned). Riding a bike wide open is way to expensive...AND...not necessarily faster, anyway.

Never mind the fact that a 450 suits my riding style better (I ride lower in the RPM range...always have...that doesn't work well on 250's...it works GREAT on 450's).

Lots of reasons to own a 450 besides being able to ride a 250f to its 100% maximum potential.

Though I will agree with you, that learning to ride on a 450 hampers skill development. I'm glad I started riding in the two stroke days...when I had no choice but to ride them.
No argument there you make some great points. What I said was just a personal opinion I'm not claiming it to be the only way to do things for everyone. Just my perspective on things. I like to twist that throttle so I enjoy riding the 125s and 250 four strokes more, and I notice due to their lower power output, I need to be on top of my game more to maintain a consistent flow around the track and be able to clear the bigger jumps that are right after corners. But I can understand that mindset not suiting everyones riding style.
Titan1
Profile picture for user Titan1
Posts
9482
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
Titan1 8/15/2017 3:24pm
8/15/2017 3:24pm
305FC250 wrote:
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the...
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
Titan1 wrote:
I'm not sure I buy the "unless you are riding a bike to its 100% maximum potential" you don't need a bigger bike. I'm certain I...
I'm not sure I buy the "unless you are riding a bike to its 100% maximum potential" you don't need a bigger bike.

I'm certain I don't ride my 450 to it's maximum potential...and I couldn't ride my 250f to its maximum potential either. But I'm far easier on my 450's motor than I was on my 250's motor (as evidenced by the rebuild costs on all of them that I've owned). Riding a bike wide open is way to expensive...AND...not necessarily faster, anyway.

Never mind the fact that a 450 suits my riding style better (I ride lower in the RPM range...always have...that doesn't work well on 250's...it works GREAT on 450's).

Lots of reasons to own a 450 besides being able to ride a 250f to its 100% maximum potential.

Though I will agree with you, that learning to ride on a 450 hampers skill development. I'm glad I started riding in the two stroke days...when I had no choice but to ride them.
305FC250 wrote:
No argument there you make some great points. What I said was just a personal opinion I'm not claiming it to be the only way to...
No argument there you make some great points. What I said was just a personal opinion I'm not claiming it to be the only way to do things for everyone. Just my perspective on things. I like to twist that throttle so I enjoy riding the 125s and 250 four strokes more, and I notice due to their lower power output, I need to be on top of my game more to maintain a consistent flow around the track and be able to clear the bigger jumps that are right after corners. But I can understand that mindset not suiting everyones riding style.
If I was better at riding bikes more wide open...I'd be all over a 250 two stroke or 250f. So I see where you're coming from, for sure.
Indy mxer
Profile picture for user Indy mxer
Posts
1894
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL, USA
Indy mxer 8/15/2017 3:49pm
8/15/2017 3:49pm
Titan1 wrote:
I'm not sure I buy the "unless you are riding a bike to its 100% maximum potential" you don't need a bigger bike. I'm certain I...
I'm not sure I buy the "unless you are riding a bike to its 100% maximum potential" you don't need a bigger bike.

I'm certain I don't ride my 450 to it's maximum potential...and I couldn't ride my 250f to its maximum potential either. But I'm far easier on my 450's motor than I was on my 250's motor (as evidenced by the rebuild costs on all of them that I've owned). Riding a bike wide open is way to expensive...AND...not necessarily faster, anyway.

Never mind the fact that a 450 suits my riding style better (I ride lower in the RPM range...always have...that doesn't work well on 250's...it works GREAT on 450's).

Lots of reasons to own a 450 besides being able to ride a 250f to its 100% maximum potential.

Though I will agree with you, that learning to ride on a 450 hampers skill development. I'm glad I started riding in the two stroke days...when I had no choice but to ride them.
Well said Titan1.

I'm 60 now, used to ride a 125 back in the day. Then I rode Kawi 250f's for about 9 years.
After riding a buddies 450 I pulled the trigger on a new 16 Kawi 450 last year.

Not sure I'm any faster but I'm having more fun. Like you I like to ride lower in the rpm range, so it works great for me. And like you I found out that's not a good way to ride a 250f. lol

I would not go back to a 250.

And yes I agree as well. You shouldn't start on a 450.
Tarz483
Profile picture for user Tarz483
Posts
6344
Joined
2/25/2009
Location
Mankato, MN, USA
Tarz483 8/15/2017 7:45pm
8/15/2017 7:45pm
305FC250 wrote:
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the...
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
This is exactly how I feel about it
doofy
Profile picture for user doofy
Posts
438
Joined
3/13/2017
Location
Avon, IN, USA
doofy 8/15/2017 8:34pm
8/15/2017 8:34pm Edited Date/Time 8/15/2017 8:44pm
305FC250 wrote:
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the...
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
Giygas wrote:
That's a very good point. Personally, I'll never try to race with the pros on Saturdays, so I love being a lazy rider. "Ringing the living...
That's a very good point. Personally, I'll never try to race with the pros on Saturdays, so I love being a lazy rider. "Ringing the living shit" out of a bike isn't fun to me.
thank you giygas. took the words out of my mouth.

one could argue that nobody uses a 450 to its potential. red bud 2016 Roczen was standing up around most of the track, 30-40% throttle most of the time and gapping everyone. Tomac, ass on the seat wide and blasting it wide open whenever possible, didnt work out near as well.

No, im not comparing myself to them.


I made the point in another thread - and I feel almost everyone shares the same opinion that Id like to see 2t comeback esp 125's in sx. I dont want to say sx has become boring... but jumps and rythm sections are the same size today as they were 15 years ago when guys had to grease everything to make it around smoothly on a 125 where on a EFI 250f, you can get away with almost anything and still have enough oomph to get over the jumps.
kzizok
Profile picture for user kzizok
Posts
8428
Joined
10/19/2010
Location
USA
kzizok 8/15/2017 9:22pm
8/15/2017 9:22pm
Statistics say yes.
TbonesPop 8/15/2017 9:22pm
8/15/2017 9:22pm
305FC250 wrote:
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the...
I see a lot of D/C riders on 450s that have trash corner speed but can still send it over all the jumps thanks to the 450s power. IMO it's lazy and prevents you from developing necessary skills in the early years of your riding. For a B/A rider things change of course, but even still theres very few people around at the local and regional level who can ride even a 250 let alone 450 to its 100 percent maximum potential. So I just feel it's unnecessary and an easy way around the track for slower less experienced riders.

Not sure if this is sound logic or not, but in a sport like motocross where success is heavily dependent on the riders skill, learning to ride a slower bike fast is the way to go if you really want to get good. When I can ring the living shit out of a 125 or 250f all the way around the track, maybe then I'll consider getting a 450 out of necessity.
I'm a 6-0, ~205 lb 46 year old C rider with semi-trash corner speed that can send it over almost all of the jumps on a track (I'll admit, some big ones still scare me). I didn't start riding tracks until I was 40 - never had the privilege to learn on a track when I was younger as many kids do now days. I rode single track growing up. So I got a late start in life riding tracks. I am a business owner, have a family, and multiple kids = lots of responsibilities. I need something that is less risky and easier to ride. I've had 250 2Ts, 250Fs, and now a 450F. Started riding tracks on a 250 2T, then went to a 250F which helped me immensely (slower to get faster). Now, I'm on a 450 and it is helping me to improve. Most days I go to the track, I'm constantly working on improving my technique, mainly corner speed (jumps are relatively easy on a 450F 4T). The problem I had was, at my weight it's hard to rev the piss out of a 250F and still clear a lot of jumps. Cornering and jumping are kind of a chicken or the egg thing. Jumping is easier if you can corner better, but its hard to corner better if you are scared to hit the jump coming out of the corner. You have to work on both aspects of riding equally IMO. Of course it is possible to still get it done on a 250F but its much more difficult and often not nearly as much fun. Most riders aren't trying to be the next up and coming pro (I'm certainly not). We're just doing this for fun and the challenge. So while I see the benefit of learning on a smaller CC bike, there comes a point where making a step up to a 450 (depending on one's size) makes sense. Couple that with the vastly reduced maintenance of a 450F and it's an easy decision.
TheOriginalPancakee
Profile picture for user TheOriginalPancakee
Posts
2273
Joined
3/28/2016
Location
Woodbine, NJ, USA
TheOriginalPancakee 8/15/2017 9:24pm
8/15/2017 9:24pm
I'm 6 foot 150 and I love the 450 over the 250. I've ridden both. I'm a lot smoother on the 450. I ride sand pits a lot so I feel the 450 suits me a lot better
TheOriginalPancakee
Profile picture for user TheOriginalPancakee
Posts
2273
Joined
3/28/2016
Location
Woodbine, NJ, USA
TheOriginalPancakee 8/15/2017 9:27pm
8/15/2017 9:27pm
also riding sand pits allll the time on a 450 is a lot better then a 250. Id kill a 250 doing motos all the time in the pit. Just my two cents
mikec265
Profile picture for user mikec265
Posts
1668
Joined
10/19/2015
Location
Edinboro, PA, USA
mikec265 8/15/2017 9:56pm
8/15/2017 9:56pm
My 450 was easier to ride and jump than my 250. I felt faster turning on the smaller bike because I could be more aggressive. I would race a 450 in the vet class. Never rode a 350. I have not raced in 10 years but im faster now than i was back then.

Now I am on 2 strokes 250/500.
I feel faster on the 500 for the first 2 laps.
The 250 would be my vet class choice to race.

If I still gave a dam about my own racing it would be a new 450 or 350 for me. Possibly a counterbalanced 300 2 stroke set for smooth low/mid power.

Skill wise i would be mid pack B or sandbagging C.
215 lbs 6ft 1in.
Bruce372
Profile picture for user Bruce372
Posts
6329
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
Bruce372 8/15/2017 10:19pm
8/15/2017 10:19pm
The other day, my kid, a just turned 12 year old beginner flooded his 125, so he went out and rode my 2017 fc450 on the track with no problems aside from over jumping a couple of obstacles lol.

I think that people comparing modern 450s with 500 smoker open bikes are nuts.

Pit Row

See All »
MxKyle (MD)
Profile picture for user MxKyle (MD)
Posts
72
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Orlando, FL, USA
MxKyle (MD) 8/16/2017 7:55am
8/16/2017 7:55am
nytsmaC wrote:
They're an open class bike, just a lot easier to ride than the old 500's ever were. None of us need 60hp and as 250's continue...
They're an open class bike, just a lot easier to ride than the old 500's ever were. None of us need 60hp and as 250's continue to get better I predict 450s will become less and less popular, just like the 500's did.

Speak for yourself because I NEED AND WANT 60+hp! I raced and won on 500's in the local open pro class during their heyday and I was better on a 500 than a 250.

I recently rode a KTM450 fitted with a KX500 engine and had a ball with it (It just vibrated too much)

--KT--
Johnny Depp
Profile picture for user Johnny Depp
Posts
6433
Joined
10/16/2014
Location
Buda, TX, USA
Johnny Depp 8/16/2017 9:40am
8/16/2017 9:40am
Bruce372 wrote:
The other day, my kid, a just turned 12 year old beginner flooded his 125, so he went out and rode my 2017 fc450 on the...
The other day, my kid, a just turned 12 year old beginner flooded his 125, so he went out and rode my 2017 fc450 on the track with no problems aside from over jumping a couple of obstacles lol.

I think that people comparing modern 450s with 500 smoker open bikes are nuts.
It's pure blasphemy to speak like that. We all know better than to tease a fire breathing dragonCool

So many people are scared to death of bigger bores, and have never ridden them. Do yourself a favor and go to a Demo day at a track or trail and give them a shot. I think you will find that what most perceive to be the hardest to ride (big bores) are actually the easiest due to torque in abundance.

I'm 59, and I don't need to learn the hard way, did that the last 45 years. When you get out a stopwatch, it becomes quite obvious that the big bore (for me) is much faster, and less tiring and dangerous.

Post a reply to: is anyone a better rider on a 450?