Dungey's lead would be 16 positions if it weren't for a point system designed to prevent consistent finishes from winning Championships

aeffertz
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5/2/2017 4:44am
tkimb wrote:
+1 Would prefer an F1 style points system.If they want the championships to be more exciting, need guys racing for the win. Dungeys shown it's pretty...
+1

Would prefer an F1 style points system.If they want the championships to be more exciting, need guys racing for the win. Dungeys shown it's pretty easy (for guys at that level) to 4th-2nd your way to a championship without having to push for a win, start the season strong then just coast the rest of the way, which people find boring.
Then why didnt your boy Tomac do the same thing if it's so damn easy?

Ahh yes, just coasting along to a podium finish in the premier supercross class. Chumps change.
yzmatt
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5/2/2017 5:01am
Dungey hater tears are the best tears. Yum.
Funyun
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5/2/2017 5:08am
Funyun wrote:
Probably to have an insentive to actually try and get those top spots instead of being complacent. In a sport that's already not even remotely competitive...
Probably to have an insentive to actually try and get those top spots instead of being complacent. In a sport that's already not even remotely competitive it's nice to have people fight for the extra points
So basically you want a system where anyone not in striking distance of the leader can just mail it in. As if the 4th thru 20th...
So basically you want a system where anyone not in striking distance of the leader can just mail it in.

As if the 4th thru 20th "battles" arent apathetic enough.
I dont want any new system its fine how it is. I just dont want some stupid 1 point system that was mentioned in the original post where settling for 2-3rd waiting for other people to crash is rewarded heavily. At least with the current system the faster riders can make their way back if they have bad races. If roczens crash only cost him 1 race he too could of made his way back but if we had this genius 1 point system trying to make up 25 points in series with no competition besides 3 people that would be pretty hard.

Jmma
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5/2/2017 5:42am
"Dungeys shown it's pretty easy (for guys at that level) to 4th-2nd your way to a championship without having to push for a win"


Pretty easy to win a championship? How about not laying an egg every 5 races? Those 8th place finishes and "Larry" crashes are what cost Tomac. Sure Tomac had the huge winning streak but the clunkers killed him along with a couple of washouts. Im sure Josh Grant would have let Tomac by except Tomac couldnt catch him nobodys talking much about that. Or casing it on the huge jump, very lucky he didnt go down hard on that one. Thats the big difference with Dungey, he doesnt screw up or ride over his head and if you take a look at his career he has always put himself in position to win a title since he first turned pro.

The Shop

Johnny Depp
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5/2/2017 6:02am
Jmma wrote:
"Dungeys shown it's pretty easy (for guys at that level) to 4th-2nd your way to a championship without having to push for a win" Pretty easy...
"Dungeys shown it's pretty easy (for guys at that level) to 4th-2nd your way to a championship without having to push for a win"


Pretty easy to win a championship? How about not laying an egg every 5 races? Those 8th place finishes and "Larry" crashes are what cost Tomac. Sure Tomac had the huge winning streak but the clunkers killed him along with a couple of washouts. Im sure Josh Grant would have let Tomac by except Tomac couldnt catch him nobodys talking much about that. Or casing it on the huge jump, very lucky he didnt go down hard on that one. Thats the big difference with Dungey, he doesnt screw up or ride over his head and if you take a look at his career he has always put himself in position to win a title since he first turned pro.
This is it.
If Dungey decided to push the limit every time he got a bad bounce or cross rutted and go for the throttle anyway he would have ended up like Roczen with an arm injury or Tomac with a shoulder injury instead of the Champion in waiting.

If you set out to make the rules for a sport with a long history of injured competitors and top stars being paralyzed, and a history of runaway title chases with titles clinched long before the end of the series what would you try to achieve?

I believe the rules should reflect those facts. You shouldn't encourage riders to light the fuse like a bottle rocket. The rules should encourage a sustainable pace throughout the series leading up to a showdown. A 1 point system like existed prior to 1993 accomplishes that without a chase.
dsmith
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5/2/2017 6:19am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 6:42am
I think the title of this thread should be longer.....



how about bonus points?

BONUS POINTS

The top qualifier from each class will receive (two,three,or four) points.

The leader at the halfway point will receive (two,three,or four) points.

something like that..maybe just one point...

Yamaknockers
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5/2/2017 6:21am
The best races are always when there is a battle for the win. I would rather watch an actual race than follow the leader, leave the points alone.
tkimb
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5/2/2017 6:27am
aeffertz wrote:
Then why didnt your boy Tomac do the same thing if it's so damn easy? Ahh yes, just coasting along to a podium finish in the...
Then why didnt your boy Tomac do the same thing if it's so damn easy?

Ahh yes, just coasting along to a podium finish in the premier supercross class. Chumps change.
I'm not a huge Tomac fan, just another rider to me. And yes, coasting for guys with the talent like Dungey.

That's where it's all in the discipline, right? I'm sure there's more than a few races where JS7, RC etc. could have comfortably rode around in 2nd or 3rd, but would always push for the win and look at the excitement it brought. Why risk it for the win when it's only 3 points unless it's really needed.

I'll admit that is a good point though, Johnny Depp
5/2/2017 6:27am
"Dungeys shown it's pretty easy"

Dungey just has the ability to make it look like it's easy. Just like Tomac gives the impression it's a walk in the park to make up 10+ seconds and then gap the competition by 6+secs. It's when he's having a bad night that he looks like he's struggeling. When Dungey has a bad night he still looks like he has a grip on the situation.

Tomac has the speed, Dungey the mental toughness. Once Tomac can master his mental side like Dungey can he'll be unstoppable.
tkimb
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5/2/2017 6:31am
"Dungeys shown it's pretty easy" Dungey just has the ability to make it look like it's easy. Just like Tomac gives the impression it's a walk...
"Dungeys shown it's pretty easy"

Dungey just has the ability to make it look like it's easy. Just like Tomac gives the impression it's a walk in the park to make up 10+ seconds and then gap the competition by 6+secs. It's when he's having a bad night that he looks like he's struggeling. When Dungey has a bad night he still looks like he has a grip on the situation.

Tomac has the speed, Dungey the mental toughness. Once Tomac can master his mental side like Dungey can he'll be unstoppable.
Convenient to leave out the parentheses huh?
sozo
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5/2/2017 6:40am
All this being said I am glad he showed grit and won last weekend.... made me feel better and that's all that matters. doh !
bents
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5/2/2017 6:48am
blusmbl wrote:
Dungey has an average finish of 2.4. Tomac's is 3.4...
Thankyou for this stat. I always find it interesting.

Dungey clearly has had the better year. He's the deserving champ.
Jabroni, where you been man? At least when you drop in you make your posts count boy. Thank you for reinforcing blusmbl and his stat. People on here the last couple of days are drunk with green brew. Dungey's worst finish of the year is ONE 4th place finish-his worst! Come on, how much more of a champion does a sport need with this kind of relentless consistency? He has had a number of opportunities to cave because of bad starts, and has found a way back to the podium pretty much all of the time. He limited the damage on nights that would have cost him a chance at the title, but the mother-fer just keeps fighting and stays on the motorcycle, but so many people want to shit on him because he isn't out destroying the field by 20 seconds every saturday night. People have no idea how hard it is for him to be doing what he is doing, all of the time.
5/2/2017 7:04am
Is Dungey the slowest champion, relatively speaking, that we've ever had?

At 14 different rounds, one of three guys has had him COVERED.
Johnny Depp
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5/2/2017 9:43am
We'll see after Vegas, don't crown him yet. Jinx and shit.

Stanton and Dungey both have 3 wins( so far).
5/2/2017 11:14am
Funyun wrote:
Probably to have an insentive to actually try and get those top spots instead of being complacent. In a sport that's already not even remotely competitive...
Probably to have an insentive to actually try and get those top spots instead of being complacent. In a sport that's already not even remotely competitive it's nice to have people fight for the extra points
So basically you want a system where anyone not in striking distance of the leader can just mail it in. As if the 4th thru 20th...
So basically you want a system where anyone not in striking distance of the leader can just mail it in.

As if the 4th thru 20th "battles" arent apathetic enough.
Funyun wrote:
I dont want any new system its fine how it is. I just dont want some stupid 1 point system that was mentioned in the original...
I dont want any new system its fine how it is. I just dont want some stupid 1 point system that was mentioned in the original post where settling for 2-3rd waiting for other people to crash is rewarded heavily. At least with the current system the faster riders can make their way back if they have bad races. If roczens crash only cost him 1 race he too could of made his way back but if we had this genius 1 point system trying to make up 25 points in series with no competition besides 3 people that would be pretty hard.

FYI, there is NOTHING complacent about racing on a SX track.

Guys of Dungey's commitment level are the LAST people we should be questioning.

I find it really funny that Dungey is accused of "coasting to a 4th place" in a sport littered with mechanics who would be more accurately labeled "parts changers" and a field of racers mostly made up of "athletes" that'd never pass the eyeball test if you didnt already know who they are. This entire sport is overflowing with complacency due to the extremely small talent pool the sport has to pull from. Yet people want to ask more of the one guy that has been more dedicated and focused than anyone else in the sport during his time? WTF.

Im not directly bashing you Funyun. Im moreso making a total observation of the fans misplaced criticism. Fuck, Im not even a Dungey fan. I wasnt a RV2 fan either. But I would NEVER question them or say they have "settled" for anything in life. Dungey's entire career is owed to the rest of the (more talented) field "settling" while he put in the work.

I was a JLaw fan. Didnt care for RV2 or Dungey. But never in a million years would I slight both their accomplishments. I dont care if RV2 took PEDs and I dont give a fuck if Dungey "played it safe" en route to 4 straight SX titles. RV2 & Dungey are 2 legitimate HoF'ers that take some serious undue criticism. It's asinine.

(sorry to bring RV2 into the discussion (I could list Bubba as well in this category) but I wanted to illustrate that this isn't a fanboi anti-Dungey issue. It's a deeper problem in that fans have a really hard time recognizing/appreciating greatness when they see it. It's a really bizzare phenomenon)
5/2/2017 11:16am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 11:18am
TripleFive wrote:
Is Dungey the slowest champion, relatively speaking, that we've ever had?

At 14 different rounds, one of three guys has had him COVERED.
I prefer to say that Dungey has gone up against the weakest field that we've ever had.

Either way, "slow or not", he's the deserving champ. The fastest guy doesnt always win the championship. The best racer does. As the way it should be.

I think we should be celebrating the parody. Rather than being upset that Tomac has been hit or miss. Either way, neither are Dungey issues.
5/2/2017 11:20am
TripleFive wrote:
Is Dungey the slowest champion, relatively speaking, that we've ever had?

At 14 different rounds, one of three guys has had him COVERED.
I prefer to say that Dungey has gone up against the weakest field that we've ever had. Either way, "slow or not", he's the deserving champ...
I prefer to say that Dungey has gone up against the weakest field that we've ever had.

Either way, "slow or not", he's the deserving champ. The fastest guy doesnt always win the championship. The best racer does. As the way it should be.

I think we should be celebrating the parody. Rather than being upset that Tomac has been hit or miss. Either way, neither are Dungey issues.
Consider Febvre's 2015 MXGP title ...

Cairoli out
Villopoto out
Desalle out
Nagl out

Somebody had to step up, and I'll bet that Romain likes that big World Championship trophy just the same.
5/2/2017 11:25am
blusmbl wrote:
Dungey has an average finish of 2.4. Tomac's is 3.4...
Thankyou for this stat. I always find it interesting.

Dungey clearly has had the better year. He's the deserving champ.
bents wrote:
Jabroni, where you been man? At least when you drop in you make your posts count boy. Thank you for reinforcing blusmbl and his stat. People...
Jabroni, where you been man? At least when you drop in you make your posts count boy. Thank you for reinforcing blusmbl and his stat. People on here the last couple of days are drunk with green brew. Dungey's worst finish of the year is ONE 4th place finish-his worst! Come on, how much more of a champion does a sport need with this kind of relentless consistency? He has had a number of opportunities to cave because of bad starts, and has found a way back to the podium pretty much all of the time. He limited the damage on nights that would have cost him a chance at the title, but the mother-fer just keeps fighting and stays on the motorcycle, but so many people want to shit on him because he isn't out destroying the field by 20 seconds every saturday night. People have no idea how hard it is for him to be doing what he is doing, all of the time.
Dude, I havent even begun to tap into discussing the hypocrisy of everyone throwing a fit because KTM executed team orders when MM let Dungey by.

I mean seriously? As if Kawasaki hasnt done their share of fuckery in the past? You think their relationship with the title sponsor (Monster) hasnt granted them a long (unfair) leash? You think that Monster is happy that a RedBull team/rider is gonna take the title that Monster payed for? I know a LONG list of things that this conflict of interest has resulted in. "Team Orders" are VERY low on the scale of crimes against the integrity of the sport that could be discussed.

All of these OEM's (including KTM) live in glass houses. It's motorsports. And whether it's F1 or mini-moto half the battle is always done off the track. I dont like it as much as the next guy but I cant pretend like Kawi is a victim here.
5/2/2017 11:30am
TripleFive wrote:
Is Dungey the slowest champion, relatively speaking, that we've ever had?

At 14 different rounds, one of three guys has had him COVERED.
I prefer to say that Dungey has gone up against the weakest field that we've ever had. Either way, "slow or not", he's the deserving champ...
I prefer to say that Dungey has gone up against the weakest field that we've ever had.

Either way, "slow or not", he's the deserving champ. The fastest guy doesnt always win the championship. The best racer does. As the way it should be.

I think we should be celebrating the parody. Rather than being upset that Tomac has been hit or miss. Either way, neither are Dungey issues.
Consider Febvre's 2015 MXGP title ... Cairoli out Villopoto out Desalle out Nagl out Somebody had to step up, and I'll bet that Romain likes that...
Consider Febvre's 2015 MXGP title ...

Cairoli out
Villopoto out
Desalle out
Nagl out

Somebody had to step up, and I'll bet that Romain likes that big World Championship trophy just the same.
As they say in other sports, the #1 ability is AVAILABILITY.

Dungey kinda reminds me of LeBron James in that he's grossly underappreciated for just how consistent he's been. LBJ has remained remarkably healthy his whole career largely due to his rare genetics. Which is why we should appreciate Dungey even more because lord knows he's no genetic freak. He's done it all on discipline/smarts. That is something we should all appreciate.

And it's impossible to quantify just how many injuries Dungey has pressured his competition into. But I can tell you first hand that Dungey's robot-like disposition gets in the heads of the competition like no other. They all struggle with knowing that he is always going to be there and it really frustrates them that "he's not that talented, he just works hard". (yes, that is a true statement Ive heard voiced in the pits).
Acidreamer
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5/2/2017 11:31am
TripleFive wrote:
Is Dungey the slowest champion, relatively speaking, that we've ever had?

At 14 different rounds, one of three guys has had him COVERED.
I prefer to say that Dungey has gone up against the weakest field that we've ever had. Either way, "slow or not", he's the deserving champ...
I prefer to say that Dungey has gone up against the weakest field that we've ever had.

Either way, "slow or not", he's the deserving champ. The fastest guy doesnt always win the championship. The best racer does. As the way it should be.

I think we should be celebrating the parody. Rather than being upset that Tomac has been hit or miss. Either way, neither are Dungey issues.
Consider Febvre's 2015 MXGP title ... Cairoli out Villopoto out Desalle out Nagl out Somebody had to step up, and I'll bet that Romain likes that...
Consider Febvre's 2015 MXGP title ...

Cairoli out
Villopoto out
Desalle out
Nagl out

Somebody had to step up, and I'll bet that Romain likes that big World Championship trophy just the same.
Its not the same. With the top guys being out, its probably the equivelant of a b rider winning a c class title. Yeah you got the trophy but you really didnt beat the best.

Dungey won because RV retired, js7 was suspended 1 year. Then the next year dungey ended js7's career. Then roczen crashed. Now this year js7 is still out, roczen crashed out, and marvin is giving him wins.

Dungey is beating up on a field of rookies who havent uet developed speed in the 450 class or a field of old men who are close to retiring(reed, millsaps, brayton).

In contrast, RV beat all those people in everything with dominating fashion since 2011.
5/2/2017 11:36am
Acidreamer wrote:
Its not the same. With the top guys being out, its probably the equivelant of a b rider winning a c class title. Yeah you got...
Its not the same. With the top guys being out, its probably the equivelant of a b rider winning a c class title. Yeah you got the trophy but you really didnt beat the best.

Dungey won because RV retired, js7 was suspended 1 year. Then the next year dungey ended js7's career. Then roczen crashed. Now this year js7 is still out, roczen crashed out, and marvin is giving him wins.

Dungey is beating up on a field of rookies who havent uet developed speed in the 450 class or a field of old men who are close to retiring(reed, millsaps, brayton).

In contrast, RV beat all those people in everything with dominating fashion since 2011.
"Not the same" according to whom? I'm betting Febvre (and Dungey) do not give a damn about anything you just wrote. Consistency and avoidance of injury are just as important as speed. That was my whole point.
Acidreamer
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5/2/2017 11:44am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 11:45am
Acidreamer wrote:
Its not the same. With the top guys being out, its probably the equivelant of a b rider winning a c class title. Yeah you got...
Its not the same. With the top guys being out, its probably the equivelant of a b rider winning a c class title. Yeah you got the trophy but you really didnt beat the best.

Dungey won because RV retired, js7 was suspended 1 year. Then the next year dungey ended js7's career. Then roczen crashed. Now this year js7 is still out, roczen crashed out, and marvin is giving him wins.

Dungey is beating up on a field of rookies who havent uet developed speed in the 450 class or a field of old men who are close to retiring(reed, millsaps, brayton).

In contrast, RV beat all those people in everything with dominating fashion since 2011.
"Not the same" according to whom? I'm betting Febvre (and Dungey) do not give a damn about anything you just wrote. Consistency and avoidance of injury...
"Not the same" according to whom? I'm betting Febvre (and Dungey) do not give a damn about anything you just wrote. Consistency and avoidance of injury are just as important as speed. That was my whole point.
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is the same, the trophy is the same, but the feeling isnt.
5/2/2017 11:53am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 11:53am
Acidreamer wrote:
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is...
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is the same, the trophy is the same, but the feeling isnt.
According to whom? When did you last win a world title?
Ted722
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5/2/2017 12:08pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is...
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is the same, the trophy is the same, but the feeling isnt.
Same if Tomac pulls this off Saturday?
5/2/2017 12:37pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 12:48pm
If everyone wants modify the points system such that it benefits the riding style of their favorite rider, then how about we do away with the points system altogether!? Turn SX into something like American Idol! We'll have the riders race 17 rounds with no points. At the end of the season, we Vitards can call in and vote for who we feel should win the championship. Dude with the most votes wins an SX title! A rider can demolish the field in the first round, crash his brains out in the second round, miss the balance of the races due to injury and still be eligible for a SX title! How great would that be!? Who cares if a guy had a hard time keeping the bike upright!?

... I'm joking, by the way.
ab5772
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5/2/2017 12:42pm
TripleFive wrote:
Is Dungey the slowest champion, relatively speaking, that we've ever had?

At 14 different rounds, one of three guys has had him COVERED.
If anything, you are belittling Dungey's competition. How lacking in skill/racecraft do you have to be to take yourself out of contention in a 17 round series against that slowpoke Dungey?

He has nearly 100 points over 4th place and 50 over Musquin in 3rd.
Acidreamer
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5/2/2017 12:44pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is...
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is the same, the trophy is the same, but the feeling isnt.
According to whom? When did you last win a world title?
Let me try another explanation. When you play basketball, do you feel better about a win vs your peers, or a kindergarten team? Or is it the same? Will you go brag to your friends about beating up on little kids? Doubt it. Hope this makes sense to you.
ab5772
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5/2/2017 12:49pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is...
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is the same, the trophy is the same, but the feeling isnt.
Ted722 wrote:
Same if Tomac pulls this off Saturday?
Nope. If Tomac wins, it's because he's an animal who mounted an incredible comeback against the best riders in the world. If Dungey wins it's because the field is weak and he got lucky. I like Tomac, but his fans on Vital make it tough.
ab5772
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5/2/2017 12:54pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Let me try another explanation. When you play basketball, do you feel better about a win vs your peers, or a kindergarten team? Or is it...
Let me try another explanation. When you play basketball, do you feel better about a win vs your peers, or a kindergarten team? Or is it the same? Will you go brag to your friends about beating up on little kids? Doubt it. Hope this makes sense to you.
So if Tomac were to win the championship, it would feel hollow because he beat a bunch of kindergarten racers? Is that what you're saying? Sounds disrespectful to Tomac and the work he put in to come back from so far down.
5/2/2017 12:56pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2017 12:57pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is...
Theres a greater satisfaction of winning a championship against the absolute best guys compared to people you know are levels below you. Sure the check is the same, the trophy is the same, but the feeling isnt.
According to whom? When did you last win a world title?
Acidreamer wrote:
Let me try another explanation. When you play basketball, do you feel better about a win vs your peers, or a kindergarten team? Or is it...
Let me try another explanation. When you play basketball, do you feel better about a win vs your peers, or a kindergarten team? Or is it the same? Will you go brag to your friends about beating up on little kids? Doubt it. Hope this makes sense to you.
You think Tomac and Musquin and Webb or Paulin and Stribos and Van Horbeek and Coldenhoff are "little kids"?

Because Dungey and Febrve beat them all. Does that make sense to you?

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