What exactly is an EFi smoker gonna give us?

onefiveight
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onefiveight 3/17/2017 8:20am
3/17/2017 8:20am
So fucking sick of hearing about outboard motors and sleds...
grunkster
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grunkster 3/17/2017 9:26am
3/17/2017 9:26am
really hoping it isn't 1K extra cost added to these bikes
gsxr6
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gsxr6 3/17/2017 10:09am
3/17/2017 10:09am
It gives us probably green sticker street legal two strokes in America. The 250 will probably make low 30s HP though . . . Mapped to burn clean enough to pass road and green sticker regs anyways. For comparison look up how much HP any current green sticker bike of any fueling type makes in comparison to it's competition sibling. Who here will pay for a 250 with less HP than a good running 125? Get ready. They won't run better than the previous carbed models. Of course the previous carb models get nowhere near Green sticker eligibility...........No doubt for a racing model they will be able to get at least close to the carbs peak HP if not surpass it. Really depends on the sizing of the throttle body and the fuel mapping. I'll be blown away if the 250 or 300 are green sticker and make anything over 35 HP.
gsxr6
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gsxr6 3/17/2017 10:16am
3/17/2017 10:16am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2017 10:16am
To be fair outboard motors and sleds are ran more at constant throttle openings without constant on off throttle situations like MX has. Mapping an outboard motor, or really anything connected to a constant speed gearbox or CVT is a hell of a lot simpler than the maps a bike would need.

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vango
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vango 3/17/2017 10:55am
3/17/2017 10:55am
Hasn't anyone heard of "Power Commander"
Did wonders for my FZ1
braaap707
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braaap707 3/17/2017 12:19pm
3/17/2017 12:19pm
Probably be a horespower at the most lost if it does even lose any and maybe 2-3 lbs of extra weight. Thats worst case scenario. You people that think these bikes are going to lose 10 horespower+ and gain 10 lbs at the same time are nuts. Even if they are in a slightly down tuned state there will be easy fixes to bring them back just like EXC ktm's and FE huskys.
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 3/17/2017 12:26pm
3/17/2017 12:26pm
onefiveight wrote:
So fucking sick of hearing about outboard motors and sleds...
Without them, 2 strokes would have been banned completely in California. Think about that.
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 3/17/2017 12:30pm
3/17/2017 12:30pm
gsxr6 wrote:
To be fair outboard motors and sleds are ran more at constant throttle openings without constant on off throttle situations like MX has. Mapping an outboard...
To be fair outboard motors and sleds are ran more at constant throttle openings without constant on off throttle situations like MX has. Mapping an outboard motor, or really anything connected to a constant speed gearbox or CVT is a hell of a lot simpler than the maps a bike would need.
They are? Snocross is constant throttle? Mountain riders are constant throttle?

Boats, sure. But you dont hold a 200 HP sled wfo for long or youre flying off a cliff or hitting a tree. SMH
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 3/17/2017 12:34pm
3/17/2017 12:34pm
braaap707 wrote:
Probably be a horespower at the most lost if it does even lose any and maybe 2-3 lbs of extra weight. Thats worst case scenario. You...
Probably be a horespower at the most lost if it does even lose any and maybe 2-3 lbs of extra weight. Thats worst case scenario. You people that think these bikes are going to lose 10 horespower+ and gain 10 lbs at the same time are nuts. Even if they are in a slightly down tuned state there will be easy fixes to bring them back just like EXC ktm's and FE huskys.
How do you figure there is lost power when other 2 strokes gained?

Qualify your statement please. Because I can qualify why other industries gain.

Thanks.
gsxr6
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gsxr6 3/17/2017 1:53pm
3/17/2017 1:53pm
gsxr6 wrote:
To be fair outboard motors and sleds are ran more at constant throttle openings without constant on off throttle situations like MX has. Mapping an outboard...
To be fair outboard motors and sleds are ran more at constant throttle openings without constant on off throttle situations like MX has. Mapping an outboard motor, or really anything connected to a constant speed gearbox or CVT is a hell of a lot simpler than the maps a bike would need.
Skidaddle wrote:
They are? Snocross is constant throttle? Mountain riders are constant throttle? Boats, sure. But you dont hold a 200 HP sled wfo for long or youre...
They are? Snocross is constant throttle? Mountain riders are constant throttle?

Boats, sure. But you dont hold a 200 HP sled wfo for long or youre flying off a cliff or hitting a tree. SMH
No, but the engine pulls up to a certain rpm and hangs there right? The sleds have a CVT style trans similar to a sxs? I really don't know. Again engines that drive through a CVT usually sing only to a certain rpm, and are simpler to map. In a RZR pin it, the engine hits about 7k and stays there, trans does the rest. Is that not the same way the power transfer works on a snowmobile?
braaap707
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braaap707 3/17/2017 2:11pm
3/17/2017 2:11pm
Skidaddle wrote:
How do you figure there is lost power when other 2 strokes gained?

Qualify your statement please. Because I can qualify why other industries gain.

Thanks.
Wow your touchy about this stuff ugh bud ? lol You want proof of EFI losing HP ? 2009 Honda CRF450. Enough said. Lost 2 horsepower to the the carb 08. That may not apply to this new KTM 250/300 efi cause it could gain horespower . Thats why i said IF it loses power. Its all speculation and guesses until people have ridden them and found out the horsepower.
blusmbl
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blusmbl 3/17/2017 2:24pm
3/17/2017 2:24pm
EFI and carbs are close in terms of absolute power, it is not a substantial swing one way or another. Where EFI shines is being able to accurately control the fuel curve across a wider operating range than a carburetor. Carbs can compete with peak power only because you get charge cooling benefits with the fuel being mixed before the port, which typically doesn't happen with a normal EFI system that has the fuel injector as close to the port as possible.
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kzizok 3/17/2017 4:43pm
3/17/2017 4:43pm Edited Date/Time 3/17/2017 4:50pm
onefiveight wrote:
So fucking sick of hearing about outboard motors and sleds...
Why? They are so relevant to a completely different discipline though. All technologies equally transfer to all disciplines.
rrjr
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rrjr 3/17/2017 6:03pm
3/17/2017 6:03pm Edited Date/Time 3/17/2017 6:03pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Without them, 2 strokes would have been banned completely in California. Think about that.
Qualify your statement please.

That's just bullshit. What have snowmobiles and outboard engines done to keep 2 stroke motorcycles legal in California.
They sure didn't do anything to help new 2 stroke pwc's from being banned.
quicken
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quicken 3/17/2017 6:19pm
3/17/2017 6:19pm
rrjr wrote:
Qualify your statement please. That's just bullshit. What have snowmobiles and outboard engines done to keep 2 stroke motorcycles legal in California. They sure didn't do...
Qualify your statement please.

That's just bullshit. What have snowmobiles and outboard engines done to keep 2 stroke motorcycles legal in California.
They sure didn't do anything to help new 2 stroke pwc's from being banned.
No that can't be right.
Skidaddle said so and he's never wrong. Just ask him. Whistling


Should be a new signature line...

Laughing



rrjr
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rrjr 3/17/2017 9:44pm
3/17/2017 9:44pm
rrjr wrote:
Qualify your statement please. That's just bullshit. What have snowmobiles and outboard engines done to keep 2 stroke motorcycles legal in California. They sure didn't do...
Qualify your statement please.

That's just bullshit. What have snowmobiles and outboard engines done to keep 2 stroke motorcycles legal in California.
They sure didn't do anything to help new 2 stroke pwc's from being banned.
quicken wrote:
No that can't be right.
Skidaddle said so and he's never wrong. Just ask him. Whistling


Should be a new signature line...

Laughing



Ever notice how when someone calls him out when he makes some b.s. statement that he can't prove you hear nothing but crickets.
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 3/17/2017 10:29pm
3/17/2017 10:29pm
braaap707 wrote:
Wow your touchy about this stuff ugh bud ? lol You want proof of EFI losing HP ? 2009 Honda CRF450. Enough said. Lost 2 horsepower...
Wow your touchy about this stuff ugh bud ? lol You want proof of EFI losing HP ? 2009 Honda CRF450. Enough said. Lost 2 horsepower to the the carb 08. That may not apply to this new KTM 250/300 efi cause it could gain horespower . Thats why i said IF it loses power. Its all speculation and guesses until people have ridden them and found out the horsepower.
Thats like the Harley guy.
We are talking 2 strokes though.

I dont know why four strokes OEM couldn't figure it out and missed the mark.

Either way, You would have to royally screw the pooch to come out with EFI with less power. I mean, all else being equal, there is no way the EFI can't have more power done right.

Nobody would buy it. Nobody I know would pay more for less performance.




cslacker
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cslacker 3/17/2017 10:41pm
3/17/2017 10:41pm
braaap707 wrote:
Wow your touchy about this stuff ugh bud ? lol You want proof of EFI losing HP ? 2009 Honda CRF450. Enough said. Lost 2 horsepower...
Wow your touchy about this stuff ugh bud ? lol You want proof of EFI losing HP ? 2009 Honda CRF450. Enough said. Lost 2 horsepower to the the carb 08. That may not apply to this new KTM 250/300 efi cause it could gain horespower . Thats why i said IF it loses power. Its all speculation and guesses until people have ridden them and found out the horsepower.
Skidaddle wrote:
Thats like the Harley guy. We are talking 2 strokes though. I dont know why four strokes OEM couldn't figure it out and missed the mark...
Thats like the Harley guy.
We are talking 2 strokes though.

I dont know why four strokes OEM couldn't figure it out and missed the mark.

Either way, You would have to royally screw the pooch to come out with EFI with less power. I mean, all else being equal, there is no way the EFI can't have more power done right.

Nobody would buy it. Nobody I know would pay more for less performance.




Carbs atomizer fuel better than efi without high pressure... that's why kawi came out with the duel injector setup. Not saying with a better design efi can't make more power. Just saying a simple switch from a carb to efi without any other changes, carb makes more power.
I am actually looking forward to this just so you know.

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kiwifan
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kiwifan 3/17/2017 10:43pm
3/17/2017 10:43pm
onefiveight wrote:
So fucking sick of hearing about outboard motors and sleds...
Skidaddle wrote:
Without them, 2 strokes would have been banned completely in California. Think about that.
Are you serious????
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 3/17/2017 10:49pm
3/17/2017 10:49pm
rrjr wrote:
Qualify your statement please. That's just bullshit. What have snowmobiles and outboard engines done to keep 2 stroke motorcycles legal in California. They sure didn't do...
Qualify your statement please.

That's just bullshit. What have snowmobiles and outboard engines done to keep 2 stroke motorcycles legal in California.
They sure didn't do anything to help new 2 stroke pwc's from being banned.
They proved 2 stroke engines can and do burn cleaner than comparable HP 4 strokes.
Read the reports CARB did. 2 strokes have won some awards on this clean burn technology also..

That said maybe someday dirt bikes will get green stickers also.







jeffro503
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jeffro503 3/17/2017 10:49pm
3/17/2017 10:49pm
braaap707 wrote:
Wow your touchy about this stuff ugh bud ? lol You want proof of EFI losing HP ? 2009 Honda CRF450. Enough said. Lost 2 horsepower...
Wow your touchy about this stuff ugh bud ? lol You want proof of EFI losing HP ? 2009 Honda CRF450. Enough said. Lost 2 horsepower to the the carb 08. That may not apply to this new KTM 250/300 efi cause it could gain horespower . Thats why i said IF it loses power. Its all speculation and guesses until people have ridden them and found out the horsepower.
Skidaddle wrote:
Thats like the Harley guy. We are talking 2 strokes though. I dont know why four strokes OEM couldn't figure it out and missed the mark...
Thats like the Harley guy.
We are talking 2 strokes though.

I dont know why four strokes OEM couldn't figure it out and missed the mark.

Either way, You would have to royally screw the pooch to come out with EFI with less power. I mean, all else being equal, there is no way the EFI can't have more power done right.

Nobody would buy it. Nobody I know would pay more for less performance.




I had , owned and raced an 08' CRF450. In 09' when EFI came out the bike felt like a turd. It wasn't until 2012 when they finally got it right again. And actually the 12' CRF450 was one awesome bike. But even then...my 08' was stronger on mid range and on top. There is a reason why people say the 08' CRF was one of the best bikes ever made....the carb was one of the reasons. Speaking of which...the 07' pulled even harder and they tamed it down in 08'.

Just and fyi since I've ridden all of them. Up until 2015 anyways.
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 3/17/2017 11:03pm
3/17/2017 11:03pm
cslacker wrote:
Carbs atomizer fuel better than efi without high pressure... that's why kawi came out with the duel injector setup. Not saying with a better design efi...
Carbs atomizer fuel better than efi without high pressure... that's why kawi came out with the duel injector setup. Not saying with a better design efi can't make more power. Just saying a simple switch from a carb to efi without any other changes, carb makes more power.
I am actually looking forward to this just so you know.
Well, My efi runs at 32 lbs. Some need 45 or so.
That's still less than a normal house garden hose at the bib
and Far from high pressure. True DI needs 100+ even up to 150.
That's high pressure.

And again you're talking 4 strokes.

ALL being equal, there is no way EFI wont make more power on 2 stroke. It's a simple air pump.

Hell, with EFI the limiting factor is the reeds.
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 3/17/2017 11:22pm
3/17/2017 11:22pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I had , owned and raced an 08' CRF450. In 09' when EFI came out the bike felt like a turd. It wasn't until 2012 when...
I had , owned and raced an 08' CRF450. In 09' when EFI came out the bike felt like a turd. It wasn't until 2012 when they finally got it right again. And actually the 12' CRF450 was one awesome bike. But even then...my 08' was stronger on mid range and on top. There is a reason why people say the 08' CRF was one of the best bikes ever made....the carb was one of the reasons. Speaking of which...the 07' pulled even harder and they tamed it down in 08'.

Just and fyi since I've ridden all of them. Up until 2015 anyways.
The new KTM in question is a 2 stroke.

I've never once mentioned or compared anything 4 stroke because it is irrelevant and 2 strokes had EFI OEM 17 years before the 09 bike you posted

However, 2 stroke sleds and outboards are relevent because that is where the technology is from in regards to 2 stroke machines.





cslacker
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cslacker 3/17/2017 11:32pm
3/17/2017 11:32pm
cslacker wrote:
Carbs atomizer fuel better than efi without high pressure... that's why kawi came out with the duel injector setup. Not saying with a better design efi...
Carbs atomizer fuel better than efi without high pressure... that's why kawi came out with the duel injector setup. Not saying with a better design efi can't make more power. Just saying a simple switch from a carb to efi without any other changes, carb makes more power.
I am actually looking forward to this just so you know.
Skidaddle wrote:
Well, My efi runs at 32 lbs. Some need 45 or so. That's still less than a normal house garden hose at the bib and Far...
Well, My efi runs at 32 lbs. Some need 45 or so.
That's still less than a normal house garden hose at the bib
and Far from high pressure. True DI needs 100+ even up to 150.
That's high pressure.

And again you're talking 4 strokes.

ALL being equal, there is no way EFI wont make more power on 2 stroke. It's a simple air pump.

Hell, with EFI the limiting factor is the reeds.
Sorry, but you are wrong. Efi works great at low throttle for atomization, even better than a carb... but... That is one of the reasons efi comes with larger diameter throttle bodies. Carbs begin the a/f mix prior to the carb body when above about 1/2 throttle. The fuel is already breaking up by the time it passes the needle jet. Efi is better at low throttle openings but cannot keep up with a carbs efficiency at large throttle openings purely because of atomization. Once again, this is why kawi has added the 2nd injector. The fuel, at large throttle openings, doesn't have the time to break up enough.

It's science so.... you might not understand it...

I agree that carbs are archaic and I am excited to see what is in store for efi 2 strokes. But carbs really are good at some things. Atomization is 1 of them and is a big part of the equation for big power.

Once again, I agree with you to an extent. But it really isn't and won't be as good as you are claiming. Best part is... one of us will be proved right finally, soon enough.
Acidreamer
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Acidreamer 3/17/2017 11:56pm
3/17/2017 11:56pm
cslacker wrote:
Carbs atomizer fuel better than efi without high pressure... that's why kawi came out with the duel injector setup. Not saying with a better design efi...
Carbs atomizer fuel better than efi without high pressure... that's why kawi came out with the duel injector setup. Not saying with a better design efi can't make more power. Just saying a simple switch from a carb to efi without any other changes, carb makes more power.
I am actually looking forward to this just so you know.
Skidaddle wrote:
Well, My efi runs at 32 lbs. Some need 45 or so. That's still less than a normal house garden hose at the bib and Far...
Well, My efi runs at 32 lbs. Some need 45 or so.
That's still less than a normal house garden hose at the bib
and Far from high pressure. True DI needs 100+ even up to 150.
That's high pressure.

And again you're talking 4 strokes.

ALL being equal, there is no way EFI wont make more power on 2 stroke. It's a simple air pump.

Hell, with EFI the limiting factor is the reeds.
cslacker wrote:
Sorry, but you are wrong. Efi works great at low throttle for atomization, even better than a carb... but... That is one of the reasons efi...
Sorry, but you are wrong. Efi works great at low throttle for atomization, even better than a carb... but... That is one of the reasons efi comes with larger diameter throttle bodies. Carbs begin the a/f mix prior to the carb body when above about 1/2 throttle. The fuel is already breaking up by the time it passes the needle jet. Efi is better at low throttle openings but cannot keep up with a carbs efficiency at large throttle openings purely because of atomization. Once again, this is why kawi has added the 2nd injector. The fuel, at large throttle openings, doesn't have the time to break up enough.

It's science so.... you might not understand it...

I agree that carbs are archaic and I am excited to see what is in store for efi 2 strokes. But carbs really are good at some things. Atomization is 1 of them and is a big part of the equation for big power.

Once again, I agree with you to an extent. But it really isn't and won't be as good as you are claiming. Best part is... one of us will be proved right finally, soon enough.
Skidaddle knows everything about everything. We dont even need to talk about anything technical because if its on a sled from the 80s and the parts from autozone fit on it it will automatically work for the 2018 ktms and every other efi bike...
resetjet
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resetjet 3/18/2017 3:26am
3/18/2017 3:26am
The answer is, pretty much nothing good except for the ability to still plate your bike.......
quicken
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quicken 3/18/2017 8:30am
3/18/2017 8:30am
I hate to continue down the snowmobile route, (someone already beat it to death with non-relevant "facts" ) but this Arctic Cat video gives a non technical view of what KTM is attempting with their two stroke. There will be differences because of patents, different platforms and corporate pride, but this will be close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6rU3F6LwEM


Not "clean" by any means, injecting fuel thru the boost or transfer ports to the combustion chamber is clean"er" than traditional efi, from a tailpipe emissions standpoint. Think of it as a half step to true DI.

The main issue with this is piston speed and available time to inject the fuel at higher rpm. How manufactures overcome this issue will be the major differences in their designs. (slot in piston, additional upstream injector, etc)

http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Tech-Insight-Inside-the-new-Arctic…
onefiveight
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onefiveight 3/18/2017 8:46am
3/18/2017 8:46am
onefiveight wrote:
So fucking sick of hearing about outboard motors and sleds...
kzizok wrote:
Why? They are so relevant to a completely different discipline though. All technologies equally transfer to all disciplines.
onefiveight
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onefiveight 3/18/2017 8:47am
3/18/2017 8:47am
onefiveight wrote:
So fucking sick of hearing about outboard motors and sleds...
kzizok wrote:
Why? They are so relevant to a completely different discipline though. All technologies equally transfer to all disciplines.
lol
gsxr6
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gsxr6 3/18/2017 9:41am
3/18/2017 9:41am
150 psi for direct injection. Lol try over 2000 psi. Has to overcome the cylinder pressure for the fuel to be able to inject. Charge cooling galore! Hence why turbo four strokes with di can get away with 87 octane.

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