Would the 450 class be better if replaced with 350?

slowgti
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slowgti 7/21/2016 1:27pm
7/21/2016 1:27pm
colintrax wrote:
No. God no. Please don't turn Moto into Nascar where everything is overly regulated.
NASCAR isn't the first or only series using restrictors. Do you like rally racing? Any professional turbo rally car is running a restrictor.
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 7/21/2016 2:59pm
7/21/2016 2:59pm
logan_140 wrote:
Smaller cc's usually equate to better racing, probably less injuries too. Although I have heard 350's are just as fast as a 450. Just a thought?
Phillip_Lamb wrote:
its not necessarily a 350 that would make better racing, in fact a 250 2t would as well. I lies in the nature of a 450...
its not necessarily a 350 that would make better racing, in fact a 250 2t would as well.

I lies in the nature of a 450, with the extra weight and power, guys have to be easy on the throttle and in some cases guys have them DEtuned, ala Pourcels and even RC's rmz was rumored to have around 55hp, all in the name of being able to ride harder.

on a 350 or a 250 the bikes can be ridden more aggressively. I actually just got off a 450 for this reason. it had so much power and weight i couldnt ride it hard, so diving to insides or railing outside had to be done with more finess
In another thread i posted a comparison of second moto times from Millville. If you were to combine the 250 and 450 class moto times the finishing order was:

1) KR 36 min 25.852 sec 450 class
2) JM 36 min 43.651 sec 250 class
3) CW 36 min 51.470 sec 250 class
4) MM 36 min 54..257 sec 450 class
5) ZO 36 min 54.258 sec 250 class
6) AM 36 min 55.559 sec 250 class
7) JS 37 min 1.943 sec 250 class
8) AP 37 min 3.821 sec 250 class
9) ET 37 min 4.257 sec 250 class

Both classes ran 16 laps so of the top nine finishers based on moto times, 7 were 250 riders.

I've done these sorts of comparisons the last few years. From what I've seen you really only have two or three guys that seem to master the potential of the 450's such that they can outperform really good riders on 250's. RD and RC transitioned to 450's without many injuries and became two of the top riders. RV got it done it but had some big injuries getting there. I thought Tomac might become one of these guys but injuries has interrupted his career growth too. Some never make the transition and seems to me would do better and maybe eventually walk away from the sport "healthier" and with more money if they'd stayed on 250's or were allowed to campaign 250's in the 450 class..
Phillip_Lamb
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Phillip_Lamb 7/21/2016 3:20pm
7/21/2016 3:20pm
logan_140 wrote:
Smaller cc's usually equate to better racing, probably less injuries too. Although I have heard 350's are just as fast as a 450. Just a thought?
Phillip_Lamb wrote:
its not necessarily a 350 that would make better racing, in fact a 250 2t would as well. I lies in the nature of a 450...
its not necessarily a 350 that would make better racing, in fact a 250 2t would as well.

I lies in the nature of a 450, with the extra weight and power, guys have to be easy on the throttle and in some cases guys have them DEtuned, ala Pourcels and even RC's rmz was rumored to have around 55hp, all in the name of being able to ride harder.

on a 350 or a 250 the bikes can be ridden more aggressively. I actually just got off a 450 for this reason. it had so much power and weight i couldnt ride it hard, so diving to insides or railing outside had to be done with more finess
OldYZRider1 wrote:
In another thread i posted a comparison of second moto times from Millville. If you were to combine the 250 and 450 class moto times the...
In another thread i posted a comparison of second moto times from Millville. If you were to combine the 250 and 450 class moto times the finishing order was:

1) KR 36 min 25.852 sec 450 class
2) JM 36 min 43.651 sec 250 class
3) CW 36 min 51.470 sec 250 class
4) MM 36 min 54..257 sec 450 class
5) ZO 36 min 54.258 sec 250 class
6) AM 36 min 55.559 sec 250 class
7) JS 37 min 1.943 sec 250 class
8) AP 37 min 3.821 sec 250 class
9) ET 37 min 4.257 sec 250 class

Both classes ran 16 laps so of the top nine finishers based on moto times, 7 were 250 riders.

I've done these sorts of comparisons the last few years. From what I've seen you really only have two or three guys that seem to master the potential of the 450's such that they can outperform really good riders on 250's. RD and RC transitioned to 450's without many injuries and became two of the top riders. RV got it done it but had some big injuries getting there. I thought Tomac might become one of these guys but injuries has interrupted his career growth too. Some never make the transition and seems to me would do better and maybe eventually walk away from the sport "healthier" and with more money if they'd stayed on 250's or were allowed to campaign 250's in the 450 class..
ya its somewhat ridiculous the lack of difference in times here.

back with 125s and 250 two stroke there was almost no way a 125 would put in times that close to the top 250s, there was just too much of a power gap to over come, but with 250fs now pushing a rumored 50hp at peak thats only 5 short of a 450 stock in most cases

add in that mistakes arent made as easily on a 250f you can get going really fast on one
10000hrs
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10000hrs 7/21/2016 3:27pm
7/21/2016 3:27pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2016 3:28pm
I agree with many here that that the racing would be better with smaller engines. I would ask that you consider an alternate approach however. Smaller engines have less horspower and at least in the current arms race, are less reliable. An alternative path to less hp would be to keep the 450 limit but impose an additional 6 to 9 db of sound reduction and require piston skirts lenghts to be much longer.

Less sound = more ground

and

Longer pistion skirts = more reliability

Win-win for the average Joe.

What say you?

The Shop

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The Rock
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The Rock 7/21/2016 4:30pm
7/21/2016 4:30pm


I like what I'm reading in this thread. New ideas are needed to lower the cost of racing
731chopper
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731chopper 7/21/2016 4:41pm
7/21/2016 4:41pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2016 4:43pm
Yes the racing would be better. Absolutely. Would it display the skill differences to the same degree as now? No.

Ever gone go kart racing with your friends? Everyone is pretty close in the crappy/slow karts but as you get into the more advanced karts the gaps start to increase because the skill starts becoming more of a factor.

It isn't a coincidence that just about every year these days we find better racing in the 250 class than the 450 class.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 7/21/2016 4:45pm
7/21/2016 4:45pm
How much less HP do you think the factory 350s than the 450? I don't think a handful will dramatically change the injury rate.

The statement of less power = less injury is just speculation IMHO.
colintrax
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colintrax 7/21/2016 4:51pm
7/21/2016 4:51pm
slowgti wrote:
NASCAR isn't the first or only series using restrictors. Do you like rally racing? Any professional turbo rally car is running a restrictor.
You're not making the point you think you are. I was briefly on a formula SAE team, the cars are cool... but the intake restriction is not.
I like the CC rule, but let's allow the teams to make as much power as possible with a given displacment.

FYI I used NASCAR as an example because it's well known.
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colintrax 7/21/2016 4:54pm
7/21/2016 4:54pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
How much less HP do you think the factory 350s than the 450? I don't think a handful will dramatically change the injury rate. The statement...
How much less HP do you think the factory 350s than the 450? I don't think a handful will dramatically change the injury rate.

The statement of less power = less injury is just speculation IMHO.
We wouldn't see any real drop in max HP, but we would see shorter power bands that need to be revved more. Not as easy making the triple from the inside line after a mistake.
brimx153
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brimx153 7/21/2016 5:27pm
7/21/2016 5:27pm
it would drive costs up alot ,Non factory guys would nt have a chance . same at the 250 class . Imo drive down the DB s .make the bikes have less power . the 250 need alot less power imo .stupid that there are nearly as fast as the big bikes . plus this would slove alot of the noise problem and having track s shutting everywhere. make all bike 80 db and work from that
plowboy
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plowboy 7/21/2016 5:34pm
7/21/2016 5:34pm
hillbilly wrote:
They should race 900cc v twins with a naked stripper on the back.
Exactly, but don't forget the blindfolds and alligator pits.
JB 19
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JB 19 7/21/2016 5:43pm
7/21/2016 5:43pm
Seems like an intake restriction on 450's could be positive. Cap the hp around 50-55. Then the bikes would become easier to ride and more reliable. Pro racing competition would improve because more guys could use the lower powered engines and it may decrease injuries as well. ........and it wouldn't disrupt the industry.
brimx153
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brimx153 7/21/2016 5:50pm
7/21/2016 5:50pm
JB 19 wrote:
Seems like an intake restriction on 450's could be positive. Cap the hp around 50-55. Then the bikes would become easier to ride and more reliable...
Seems like an intake restriction on 450's could be positive. Cap the hp around 50-55. Then the bikes would become easier to ride and more reliable. Pro racing competition would improve because more guys could use the lower powered engines and it may decrease injuries as well. ........and it wouldn't disrupt the industry.
just bring down the noise, it will get the HP down instandly ,and keep tracks open too
Tbteam
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Tbteam 7/21/2016 6:11pm
7/21/2016 6:11pm
I'd rather see 300cc big bore and 175cc small bore.

I'm tired of seeing the bikes control the tracks rather than the tracks control the bikes. Momentum should be the key factor in going fast, not the ability to twist the throttle. But that's just my opinion.
Crush
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Crush 7/21/2016 6:12pm
7/21/2016 6:12pm
Is it a coincidence that in about all motorsport the smaller classes produce better racing 95% of the time?!

The 250 class in US nationals has been a fucking barn-burner almost every year and the big class is a damn run-away more than not. Even the very best still have a hard time ringing a 450.

Said it a million times here, the best racing and best for the sport would be a premier 250 ANY class and a 125 two stroke entry class (and amateurs only two stroke)
Insider347
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Insider347 7/21/2016 6:28pm
7/21/2016 6:28pm
its simple. make the classes displacement and include 2 and 4 stroke. When the 4 strokes were at such a disadvantage they allowed for bigger cc for them. Now the tables have turned so its the 2 strokes that need help advancing. Make the rule change:

250cc 4 and 2 strokes

open class with allowed cc up to 450cc

Simple
Highsider
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Highsider 7/21/2016 7:16pm
7/21/2016 7:16pm
cable
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cable 7/21/2016 7:42pm
7/21/2016 7:42pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2016 7:43pm
Watch the 125 vs 500cc classes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhWaFPHUzU8

I wish we could have technology to see how long the throttle is wide open..
I agree with tbteam

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BobPA
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BobPA 7/21/2016 8:25pm
7/21/2016 8:25pm
No one is beating the German kid right now...regardless of what cc the bike it

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