Finally, now bring on the points chase!

Phillip_Lamb
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5/1/2016 10:59am
Katoomey wrote:
I still fail to see how its unfair to anyone. If Dungey is so deserving of winning, then he shouldn't have a problem winning no matter...
I still fail to see how its unfair to anyone. If Dungey is so deserving of winning, then he shouldn't have a problem winning no matter what the format is. Doesnt the cream always rise?

I also think a format change wont do anything to make the racing better. The problem is the starts. The races are generally won or lost on the start, or at very least play too large of a role in the outcome.

Unless we just want to call this dirtbike drag racing and put the finish line at the holeshot marker and move on, the starts are what need a revamp.

If thats upsetting tradition too much, well i sort of agree, but thats where the real issues lie, as far as I'm concerned.
it is unfair because it downplays the work and results put in at the beginning of the season. So for instance Roczen only recently got comfortable on the bike and has been hot lately, he would be closer in the title hunt, but his earlier results and finishes dont matter, it was ok that he wasnt ready to fight for the wins early on. where as dungey who Was ready, WAS winning get a penalt.

It rewards those who were essentially, NOT GOOD ENOUGH every weekend, just good enough in the last few rounds.

This exact scenario is playing out in AX right now. Gavin Faith built up a bunch of points. Then the chase happens, all his points are gone, he even lost the points lead for a bit to someone who sucked the before hand. He happens to be back in the lead but had he crashed or had some bad luck with only a small points gap all his hard work and prior good finishes meant nothing.
akillerwombat
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5/1/2016 10:59am
You seem baffled a lot so I think that may be your problem. Tongue
... that tends to be the result when you provide people with hard data and they still think their factitious opinions are stronger.
Bultaco
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5/1/2016 11:08am Edited Date/Time 5/1/2016 11:13am
Mountain biking has a World Cup (cumulative points series like Supercross/Motocross) and a World Championship (one race event in the middle of the World Cup series). Rarely are the Series and one day champions the same person. To much can happen on any given day to derail the race. One of the reasons for a series is to factor out the one-hit-wonders.

I don't like the chase format in Supercross because it is only for marketing purposes and is not even an original idea. Nothing like copying some car series that is having it's own struggles.*

*Business Insider March 9, 2016
Jimmy_Sloan
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5/1/2016 11:10am
... that tends to be the result when you provide people with hard data and they still think their factitious opinions are stronger.
So far, the pro-chase crowd has not provided any hard data. The only argument that's been forthcoming is "It will make it more exciting, let's give it a try!"

Not very compelling.

The Shop

yota
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5/1/2016 11:18am
change is good

kill off the open class
drop moto times to 30 minutes (and for stupidcross 1 moto, even shorter)
change from 2 day events to 1 day events choreographed for TV coverage
change from racing on Sunday to racing on Saturday
kill off the 125 class
ban 2 strokes altogether from AMA Pro Racing events
change most mx tracks in the US to huge jump fests ala stupidcross
sell a series to the likes of Luongo (and Feld)

I'm sure I left out a few.

one of the few good changes in this sport was 2 strokes taking over from 4 strokes in the 60's. But they took over by being lighter, more powerful and better handling not by getting an advantage in engine size.
akillerwombat
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5/1/2016 11:25am Edited Date/Time 5/1/2016 11:29am
So far, the pro-chase crowd has not provided any hard data. The only argument that's been forthcoming is "It will make it more exciting, let's give...
So far, the pro-chase crowd has not provided any hard data. The only argument that's been forthcoming is "It will make it more exciting, let's give it a try!"

Not very compelling.
For reference, here is how the season would have shaped up going into Vegas with a Chase format:


... kind of looks like exactly how the season turned out with just a tighter, and I'll say more exciting, points race going into what should be the biggest race of our season. If you want you can also do some research into nearly every other sport in the world because almost all of them use a tournament format (IE, Chase).

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the East Coast / West Coast final for the 250's? No one seems to have any issues that an East Coast guy could ruin the championship for a West Coast guy or vice versa even though they haven't raced each other at any point in the season up to this point.
Jaybird67k
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5/1/2016 12:40pm
So far, the pro-chase crowd has not provided any hard data. The only argument that's been forthcoming is "It will make it more exciting, let's give...
So far, the pro-chase crowd has not provided any hard data. The only argument that's been forthcoming is "It will make it more exciting, let's give it a try!"

Not very compelling.
For reference, here is how the season would have shaped up going into Vegas with a Chase format: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/05/01/133613/s1200_s1200_chase.jpg[/img] ... kind of looks like exactly how...
For reference, here is how the season would have shaped up going into Vegas with a Chase format:


... kind of looks like exactly how the season turned out with just a tighter, and I'll say more exciting, points race going into what should be the biggest race of our season. If you want you can also do some research into nearly every other sport in the world because almost all of them use a tournament format (IE, Chase).

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the East Coast / West Coast final for the 250's? No one seems to have any issues that an East Coast guy could ruin the championship for a West Coast guy or vice versa even though they haven't raced each other at any point in the season up to this point.
That is the gayest thing I have ever seen!!!

Please stop and just go vote for Hillary or Bernie since you like taking from the hard workers and giving to the not as hard working or just not as competitive.

Geesh !
akillerwombat
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5/1/2016 12:44pm
Jaybird67k wrote:
That is the gayest thing I have ever seen!!! Please stop and just go vote for Hillary or Bernie since you like taking from the hard...
That is the gayest thing I have ever seen!!!

Please stop and just go vote for Hillary or Bernie since you like taking from the hard workers and giving to the not as hard working or just not as competitive.

Geesh !
I don't quite see what this has to do with Hillary, Bernie, or allowing people to love whomever they choose to love but I suppose you're right; baseball, basketball, soccer, football, hockey, golf, etc have all got the formula wrong. No one gives a shit about their championships either and everyone who wins has a huge asterisk next to their name because it wasn't a "collective total of wins" format in which they proved they were worthy of said championship.
JPT
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5/1/2016 12:48pm
As per your second to last sentence, "[i]Adjust the points, require one throw away round, change the gate pick, tweek things but do not totally change...
As per your second to last sentence, "Adjust the points, require one throw away round, change the gate pick, tweek things but do not totally change what it means to be Champion."

Adjust the points: this is what Chase does.
Require one throw away round: Goodbye record books
Change the gate pick: Then why have qualifying?
Tweek things: Such as? Everything we've tried the last few years hasn't done anything.
Do not totally change what it means to be Champion: Are the Patriots less of a champion because they use Chase format? How about Olympians, are they lesser champions for using a tournament format (IE, Chase)?

For those of you that are willing to admit SX is broken (and drastically needs more end of the season drama for both old and new fans) what other things could we change that we haven't already tried that would not only make the entirety of the season more entertaining as well as allowing us to continue to track records in nearly the exact same fashion.

I'm just so baffled that so many people are so afraid of a change in format when it's been proven in the above post with data that this years season would have unfolded in the exact same fashion with just a tighter gap in points.
Because the points would be artificially tightened. The chaSE doesn't tweek how points are earned, it resets them.
akillerwombat
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5/1/2016 1:00pm
JPT wrote:
Because the points would be artificially tightened. The chaSE doesn't tweek how points are earned, it resets them.
Honest question, how would you adjust the points then?

This is something I've racked my brain about quite a bit the last few weeks and I don't find it to be a stronger solution than following a traditional tournament format.
Prntscrn
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5/1/2016 1:07pm
Not that it matters since I don't pay to watch the races but if it happens I sure as hell won't be watching
akillerwombat
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5/1/2016 1:19pm Edited Date/Time 5/1/2016 1:40pm
Another way to look at the Chase format...

We have an East Coast 250 series and we have a West Coast 250 series. In Vegas they come together and we get 1 race to see who is the best of both coasts, wouldn't it be rad to see who was the best of both coasts over an additional 3 races? We could take the top 10 of both coasts, reset their points, and we would see who was the best of the best... which is essentially how the Chase format works.

I'm not trying to start shit, or be argumentative, and I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion but I really feel that our sport needs some sort of Championship. We desperately need that final battle and while Chase might not be the answer, and I will fully own up to my beliefs if it fails, I think it's worth a shot because we need to find a way to make Supercross more entertaining (at the end of the day Supercross exists for entertainment); we have MX to maintain the purity of the sport.

I'm totally down to discuss any suggestions past "It wont work" or "I wont watch" because that's a cop out of participating in any real dialogue but how I see it if you're going to change anything outside of the the layout of the tracks (increasing points every week, dropping a bad race, etc) in order to increase the entertainment it's no different than trying Chase.
JPT
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5/1/2016 1:29pm
Honest question, how would you adjust the points then? This is something I've racked my brain about quite a bit the last few weeks and I...
Honest question, how would you adjust the points then?

This is something I've racked my brain about quite a bit the last few weeks and I don't find it to be a stronger solution than following a traditional tournament format.
What people think needs changing is the fact that one rider is doing exactly racing a series is supposed to be about. Being very fast and very consistent.

Has anybody noticed that if you take RD out of the equation KR would have wrapped it up this week? In fact you have to get down to between 6th and 7th before there's less than a 25 point gap.
akillerwombat
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5/1/2016 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 5/1/2016 1:57pm
JPT wrote:
What people think needs changing is the fact that one rider is doing exactly racing a series is supposed to be about. Being very fast and...
What people think needs changing is the fact that one rider is doing exactly racing a series is supposed to be about. Being very fast and very consistent.

Has anybody noticed that if you take RD out of the equation KR would have wrapped it up this week? In fact you have to get down to between 6th and 7th before there's less than a 25 point gap.
Despite the disapproval of a few in relating Supercross to Football (the most watched sport in the United States) I am going to stick with it for the sake of consistency...

Do we have any issues with the credentials of the Patriots having dominating regular seasons, stellar post seasons, and owning nearly everyone the last few years in the Super Bowls? Like SX teams they still work incredibly hard all year, show up every game playing hard, and are still rewarded for their efforts come the end of the season (despite having to clear their records going into the playoffs / Superbowl).

I feel like people are afraid that someone like Brayton (I only use his name because it keeps popping up) is going to show up in Vegas and clinch the title... which simply isn't how the format works. He, like Dungey, Tomac, Roczen, etc and their respective teams have to bust their asses all year long to continue moving on in the tournament to remain in title contention.
Flip109
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5/2/2016 1:01am
I don't get why they don't just change the point system to keep things "tighter". Just award points per position earned.

Example: 1st-22 points 2nd-21 points 3rd-20 points.

Or: 1st- 1 point 2nd-2 points 3rd-3 points. Lowest total at end of year wins it.

Wins being tie breaker like it is.

At least this way the points stay a bit "closer" and one bad race can really swing the championship around. It would still award dungey or whoever for their consistency. Either format would have brought the championship down to Vegas at least this year. Dungey would still win it barring a disaster but it still goes down in Vegas. The points would look like this going into Vegas.

Dungey-339
Roczen-319

Or:
Dungey-29
Roczen-47

Not close, but there would be some hope for Kroc going into Vegas, but least it would have made it to the last round. And if someone wraps the season up two rounds early on that system, well they demolished everyone and deserve to be champ anyway.
EEE299
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5/2/2016 7:26am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2016 7:27am
Bultaco wrote:
Mountain biking has a World Cup (cumulative points series like Supercross/Motocross) and a World Championship (one race event in the middle of the World Cup series)...
Mountain biking has a World Cup (cumulative points series like Supercross/Motocross) and a World Championship (one race event in the middle of the World Cup series). Rarely are the Series and one day champions the same person. To much can happen on any given day to derail the race. One of the reasons for a series is to factor out the one-hit-wonders.

I don't like the chase format in Supercross because it is only for marketing purposes and is not even an original idea. Nothing like copying some car series that is having it's own struggles.*

*Business Insider March 9, 2016
You got it right.

Has anyone thought about what it was like when YOU tried to win a championship? Maybe I am being unrealistic in thinking that people on a MX board have been in this position. Laughing
I don't think making it more exciting at the end of the year at the expense of the beginning has any benefit. Especially since I think the new format will lead to more injuries in our already injury plagued sport.
Dezerted
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5/2/2016 9:06am
I for one think an adult should be able to spell epitome if they're going to insult someone...
Dezerted
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5/2/2016 9:09am
I support the change but I do wish they'd attempt to fix the actual racing first..
colintrax
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5/2/2016 9:13am
Flip109 wrote:
I don't get why they don't just change the point system to keep things "tighter". Just award points per position earned. Example: 1st-22 points 2nd-21 points...
I don't get why they don't just change the point system to keep things "tighter". Just award points per position earned.

Example: 1st-22 points 2nd-21 points 3rd-20 points.

Or: 1st- 1 point 2nd-2 points 3rd-3 points. Lowest total at end of year wins it.

Wins being tie breaker like it is.

At least this way the points stay a bit "closer" and one bad race can really swing the championship around. It would still award dungey or whoever for their consistency. Either format would have brought the championship down to Vegas at least this year. Dungey would still win it barring a disaster but it still goes down in Vegas. The points would look like this going into Vegas.

Dungey-339
Roczen-319

Or:
Dungey-29
Roczen-47

Not close, but there would be some hope for Kroc going into Vegas, but least it would have made it to the last round. And if someone wraps the season up two rounds early on that system, well they demolished everyone and deserve to be champ anyway.
I think this is a good idea, however how would you give points for missing a round, not qualifying for the night show, or not qualifying for the main?
Dezerted
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5/2/2016 9:19am
So far, the pro-chase crowd has not provided any hard data. The only argument that's been forthcoming is "It will make it more exciting, let's give...
So far, the pro-chase crowd has not provided any hard data. The only argument that's been forthcoming is "It will make it more exciting, let's give it a try!"

Not very compelling.
For reference, here is how the season would have shaped up going into Vegas with a Chase format: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/05/01/133613/s1200_s1200_chase.jpg[/img] ... kind of looks like exactly how...
For reference, here is how the season would have shaped up going into Vegas with a Chase format:


... kind of looks like exactly how the season turned out with just a tighter, and I'll say more exciting, points race going into what should be the biggest race of our season. If you want you can also do some research into nearly every other sport in the world because almost all of them use a tournament format (IE, Chase).

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the East Coast / West Coast final for the 250's? No one seems to have any issues that an East Coast guy could ruin the championship for a West Coast guy or vice versa even though they haven't raced each other at any point in the season up to this point.
Jaybird67k wrote:
That is the gayest thing I have ever seen!!! Please stop and just go vote for Hillary or Bernie since you like taking from the hard...
That is the gayest thing I have ever seen!!!

Please stop and just go vote for Hillary or Bernie since you like taking from the hard workers and giving to the not as hard working or just not as competitive.

Geesh !
Just so you know republican representatives do that as well but Leave politics out of it..
Berm
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Fantasy
5/2/2016 9:21am
What about a progressive points payout system instead of a reset? The first 5 races at the beginning pay out 25-22-20-18-ect and at the end of the year the payout has increased to 100-88-80-72-ect. So mid season 5 races is 50-44-40-36 and late season 5 races is 75-66-60-54 with the last two races being 100-88-80-72.
KlootZak
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5/2/2016 9:27am
I laugh with the people who are so against another format. I bet they are still stuck in 1970 and use a walkman to listen to music. It is even funnier when they link the for-or-against-chase format with political beliefs but ok ...

The idea of assigning 1st with 1 point, 2nd with 2 points and so on (or something similar) is stoopid. If the gap is closer, it is also more difficult to catch up if you have a deficit so what's the use? It's like you earn 10x times as much but everything is 10x times more expensive, are you richer? no.

Ideal solution would be to give points every race but double or triple the amount of points for the last 6 to 8 races. Therefore the beginning still matters, but everything can happen in the end.

for example:
1st to 10 races:
1st - 10 points
2nd - 9 points
...

11 to last race
1st 30 points
2nd 24 points
3rd 20 points
...
Flip109
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5/2/2016 9:29am
Flip109 wrote:
I don't get why they don't just change the point system to keep things "tighter". Just award points per position earned. Example: 1st-22 points 2nd-21 points...
I don't get why they don't just change the point system to keep things "tighter". Just award points per position earned.

Example: 1st-22 points 2nd-21 points 3rd-20 points.

Or: 1st- 1 point 2nd-2 points 3rd-3 points. Lowest total at end of year wins it.

Wins being tie breaker like it is.

At least this way the points stay a bit "closer" and one bad race can really swing the championship around. It would still award dungey or whoever for their consistency. Either format would have brought the championship down to Vegas at least this year. Dungey would still win it barring a disaster but it still goes down in Vegas. The points would look like this going into Vegas.

Dungey-339
Roczen-319

Or:
Dungey-29
Roczen-47

Not close, but there would be some hope for Kroc going into Vegas, but least it would have made it to the last round. And if someone wraps the season up two rounds early on that system, well they demolished everyone and deserve to be champ anyway.
colintrax wrote:
I think this is a good idea, however how would you give points for missing a round, not qualifying for the night show, or not qualifying...
I think this is a good idea, however how would you give points for missing a round, not qualifying for the night show, or not qualifying for the main?
Good thinking. The counting down wouldn't work I guess. To bad cause that would really be the easiest way to keep it as close as possible. While still awarding consistency and making every round count.
5/2/2016 9:47am
USMCMXer wrote:
Yeah, god forbid someone can be competitive and top 3 all year (for 31 straight races, actually). You're the epitime of a generation of entitled people...
Yeah, god forbid someone can be competitive and top 3 all year (for 31 straight races, actually). You're the epitime of a generation of entitled people. It should be easy, not a grind, and trophies for everyone. Yeah, that does sound a lot better.
There's a nugget in here.

A chase won't change things barring an injury. When you're the only person who can finish on the podium for what is almost 2 whole seasons, a chase won't matter. He'll still win. He wins from insane levels of consistency. Not because he's checkers or wreckers.
Motoxdoc
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5/2/2016 9:56am
Chase format or not...I don't really care. I'm a SX/MX fan to the core and I just want to see good close racing when I spectate. As a spectator, who cares about the points? Isn't it the racing that makes this sport entertaining? However, if implementing the chase format made some of you fair weathered, whiny, complaining, conservative, non-sense "entitlement generation" accusing bitches go away for good.....I'd be all for it!
TDeath21
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5/2/2016 10:39am
A "playoff system" isn't needed when you compete against EVERYONE EVERY WEEKEND on 17 DIFFERENT TRACKS. If they go to a chase format I'll make it a point to not watch any races live.
dkg
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5/2/2016 10:54am
I am so over this chase discussion. A chase will ruin SX and turn the championship into a farce. So for those that are so in favor of the chase, here is a novel idea. Why don't you just forget there is a series championship going on. Then when you get to the later rounds make up any point system that gets you excited. For all I care you can even give out trophies for your championship. Bring the trophy to the Vegas SX. Hand it out to your winner in the pits. I am sure the recipient rider will honored to receive it.
5/2/2016 11:15am
I still say forget the chase format and use the same thing that SuperEnduro uses. That produces some of the best racing action over 3 different mains.

2 rows of 11 riders on the gate.
3x10 lap races - Gets rid of the the race being over after the first turn.

1 - extra point for fastest time in practice
2 - First main gate pick is based on qualifying lap
3 - Second main is inverted pick based on results of first main
3 - Third main is based of combined results from 1st and 2nd main.
4 - combined points from 3 mains provide finish results.

No need for chase and will be very entertaining.

... I'd also recommend throwing out some logs.
5/2/2016 11:17am
ONCE AGAIN...the Chase System has no business in the world of Supercross.
Dezerted
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5/2/2016 11:45am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2016 11:47am
Once again it's not so much people are for the chase as it is we're for some change. The racing has progressively gotten worse not just for the championship but also on a race to race basis. I think most, if not all of us, would prefer they address the actual racing itself either by track design, size etc or by ways of bike regulations (start assist, cc's etc.)

I'm just glad they're not like you old cats who whine about people whining and aren't opposed to change. Is it the right change? I couldn't tell you without seeing it in action and those who say it isn't also can't say with certainty.

Boycotting it is just plain stupid and does nothing but hurt the sport

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