Riders Union

MrKnowItAll
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Edited Date/Time 4/14/2016 6:32pm
Its time. Its time that the participants of the sport we love so much get the basic representation they deserve.

1.) health and life insurance. This is a no brainer (see Ernesto Fonseca, Doug Henry, etc.)
2.) purse $. Its embarrising. You should be able to make a basic living or better for risking your life on a weekly basis.
3.) dedicated flaggers, if you can fly scantily clad women around the country you can do the same for a safety crew.
4.) financial planning services. Very few racers have a fraction of what they have made in their prime.

Before anyone says that it can be done, every other sport has gone through this transition. The question is who has the sand to make this happen? Its time!
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mx510
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4/13/2016 12:23pm
You.
Sully22
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4/13/2016 12:23pm
While I agree in theory with most of what you wrote, it's a snowballs chance in hell of getting any of it implemented.

1. You can buy both in the free market.

2. This has been brought up for years and will never change, when it does its minimal (see recent 250 class increases)

3. This is where change is currently happening, sometimes to the detriment of good racing (blue flags and Red Cross flags have always been an issue, but they've cost some guys points, positions, and $$$$ this year more so than in the past.

4. Again, free market. It would be cool for the organizers to put on a class similar to what nfl, mlb, nba, and others do with rookies. The problem is, the guys on the bottom in the nfl for example are making around 400-500k a year, so that means 1600+ guys in the league are making at least 400k a year. Where there are only a handful of guys at the top in SX/MX making 400k or more a year and those guys more than likely do have agents and advisors. Many privateers in SX/MX are paying to race and any true financial advisor worth their salt would recommend hanging up the boots and quit spending their own money to go race on the weekends.
kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 12:26pm
I will donate $500 towards it AND be the President of it for free!
DPR250R
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4/13/2016 12:34pm
Another example of the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. First the Chase... now this.

What has the world come to? Next thing you know child labor will be outlawed.

The Shop

kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 12:35pm
DPR250R wrote:
Another example of the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. First the Chase... now this. What has the world come to? Next thing you know child labor...
Another example of the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. First the Chase... now this.

What has the world come to? Next thing you know child labor will be outlawed.
Well if they ever really outlaw child labor.....Nikes will cost $300.......

Hey wait
JustMX
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4/13/2016 12:39pm
Dang,

I thought we might make it a week or so before this same old topic popped up.

It will never ever, ever happen.

The top riders are not going to risk anything to make sure the guy finishing 15th - 21st have life and health insurance.

I do think some financial advice would be good. If for nothing else to explain to entry level riders that when they do start making some kind of money they should call aflack and blue cross before they dial the Lexus dealer.
BobPA
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4/13/2016 12:43pm
If the purse goes up, ticket prices will follow

A union would have ZERO leverage. What are they gonna do? Muscle Feld into paying for insurance and better purses? If the riders threaten a strike, Feld will can the series and crest 10 more rounds for monster trucks...
kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 12:47pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 12:47pm
BobPA wrote:
If the purse goes up, ticket prices will follow A union would have ZERO leverage. What are they gonna do? Muscle Feld into paying for insurance...
If the purse goes up, ticket prices will follow

A union would have ZERO leverage. What are they gonna do? Muscle Feld into paying for insurance and better purses? If the riders threaten a strike, Feld will can the series and crest 10 more rounds for monster trucks...
The battle between the FIM and the AMA proved they will pay more out to the riders if they have to!

Maybe somebody could post before and after rider payouts?
mxpro252
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4/13/2016 12:53pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 12:54pm
2) This reminds me of the women's soccer lawsuit for equal pay as the men. This is entertainment, earnings are mostly based on what people are willing to pay to spectate. If there’s an argument that promoters should be paying the riders more, an assumption is being made that promoters have been experiencing consecutive years of millions in net income that they could hand out. I highly doubt that’s the case but if it is, I think we’d see another promoter trying to start a similar series or event to get a piece of all those profits, giving the riders options. That's the idea behind a free market.

Basically I’m saying where the hell is this extra money going to come from?
Motoxdoc
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4/13/2016 12:56pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 1:04pm
IMO, until the riders have some sort of bartering power the promoters will continue to use them up and kick them to the curb. Athletes in other big sports have collective representation.....why not in SX/MX? Jody has a great write up about purse money in SX in this months MXA. The racers got an 89 cent per event raise in purse money this year; that adds up to approx $15 at the end of the series.....if you survive every round. It doesn't sound like the increase in purse money is keeping up with the increase in the cost of living. How does a single rider negotiate things like this with a giant corporation that has deep pockets? Time for a riders union.
kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 1:07pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 1:08pm
mxpro252 wrote:
2) This reminds me of the women's soccer lawsuit for equal pay as the men. This is entertainment, earnings are mostly based on what people are...
2) This reminds me of the women's soccer lawsuit for equal pay as the men. This is entertainment, earnings are mostly based on what people are willing to pay to spectate. If there’s an argument that promoters should be paying the riders more, an assumption is being made that promoters have been experiencing consecutive years of millions in net income that they could hand out. I highly doubt that’s the case but if it is, I think we’d see another promoter trying to start a similar series or event to get a piece of all those profits, giving the riders options. That's the idea behind a free market.

Basically I’m saying where the hell is this extra money going to come from?
How much do you think Feld paid for sx? Why?

He didn't purchase it as a loss leader to Monster Trucks
floridaflash
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4/13/2016 1:14pm
the only way this will ever work is if the riders take control of the sport like the rodeo riders did. With Feld controlling all of the venues it is unlikely it will ever change
roninho
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4/13/2016 1:18pm
I can't speak for us mx/sx, but the GP riders have all the reason to form a union.

I was in Valkenswaard, at least 10.000 visitors paying 70 euro (78 dollar), 150 or 200 EMX riders paying 300 euro entyr fee and 80 gp riders paying 1000 euro entry fee. Excluding paddock space rent, sponsorship, hospitality beer and food sales you are talking about 800-900.000 euro and NOTHING going to the riders

It's just an enormous money grab by youthstream, which would be fine if every backmarker is making a good salary (as in F1 for example), but in MXGP most have a hard time getting things working out.
731chopper
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4/13/2016 1:19pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
How much do you think Feld paid for sx? Why?

He didn't purchase it as a loss leader to Monster Trucks
Have you seen their books? Who is going to step up and hire EY to get a proper valuation of the business?

We're hardly a blip on the radar of professional sports. Let's stop kidding ourselves by comparing us to others. If you think things should be done so differently and there are the means to do it then go and DO IT. This is still a relatively free Country. Go make your own series, call it Stadium MX, offer these benefits and let's see what happens. Trying to force your will on others is not the way to do it.

And for the love of all things holy can somebody who brings this idea up again please throw me a bone and let me know where the money tree is planted?
kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 1:27pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 1:27pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
How much do you think Feld paid for sx? Why?

He didn't purchase it as a loss leader to Monster Trucks
731chopper wrote:
Have you seen their books? Who is going to step up and hire EY to get a proper valuation of the business? We're hardly a blip...
Have you seen their books? Who is going to step up and hire EY to get a proper valuation of the business?

We're hardly a blip on the radar of professional sports. Let's stop kidding ourselves by comparing us to others. If you think things should be done so differently and there are the means to do it then go and DO IT. This is still a relatively free Country. Go make your own series, call it Stadium MX, offer these benefits and let's see what happens. Trying to force your will on others is not the way to do it.

And for the love of all things holy can somebody who brings this idea up again please throw me a bone and let me know where the money tree is planted?
Feld paid a lot of of cash for sx, after looking at the books.......Feld has made it better than when they bought it.

I don't need to see the books, I understand business
731chopper
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4/13/2016 1:30pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
Feld paid a lot of of cash for sx, after looking at the books.......Feld has made it better than when they bought it. I don't need...
Feld paid a lot of of cash for sx, after looking at the books.......Feld has made it better than when they bought it.

I don't need to see the books, I understand business
You didn't answer my question.
kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 1:31pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 1:34pm
You had 3 questions!

Read my 3rd and 4th post
731chopper
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4/13/2016 1:47pm
So, you haven't seen their books? No. Nobody here has so nobody knows the financial health of Supercross.

I'm not doubting that it makes money. I do doubt that it makes what some people seem to think it does. Truthfully, I don't think a lot of people who post about this even understand basic accounting. It seems like there is more revenue being generated now vs 10 years ago, especially with the rumor that Fox Sports pays for the rights to broadcast the races now. So Feld purchased the series, invested more into it afterwards, made smart decisions and created something more marketable yet now that all of that hard work is done it is time for the riders to start making demands?
mxpro252
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4/13/2016 1:53pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
How much do you think Feld paid for sx? Why?

He didn't purchase it as a loss leader to Monster Trucks
I have no idea how much Feld paid or what the segment of SX is doing for the bottom line. But if I were to make an argument that more should go to the riders (or any employee of anything), the first thing I’d need to know is exactly how much revenue the segment is generating and total expenses associated with it to know if there is even any money left over to distribute to riders. If there was a ton of profit, then sure, it’d be nice if they gave more to the riders and the riders would have a basis for that argument.

And I don’t disagree with you at all that it’s a shame the top 15-20 guys in the sport don’t make more considering the work they put in, the danger and short careers.
4/13/2016 1:56pm
Question : is feld still paying to have the races aired?
kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 1:59pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 2:03pm
When the FIM and the AMA battled it out, the riders got a big pay increase to go with FIM......

Nobody had seen their books!

After looking at the books, Feld paid 100s of millions of dollars for sx and has steadily made sx more profitable.....


And I didn't advocate a riders Union for the riders just to get more money. They are already making a lot more money with FIM and now that Feld has taken over! I would advocate a union so that they become a partner!
Motoxdoc
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4/13/2016 2:30pm
731chopper wrote:
So, you haven't seen their books? No. Nobody here has so nobody knows the financial health of Supercross. I'm not doubting that it makes money. I...
So, you haven't seen their books? No. Nobody here has so nobody knows the financial health of Supercross.

I'm not doubting that it makes money. I do doubt that it makes what some people seem to think it does. Truthfully, I don't think a lot of people who post about this even understand basic accounting. It seems like there is more revenue being generated now vs 10 years ago, especially with the rumor that Fox Sports pays for the rights to broadcast the races now. So Feld purchased the series, invested more into it afterwards, made smart decisions and created something more marketable yet now that all of that hard work is done it is time for the riders to start making demands?
I would answer the question at the end of your post with a resounding, YES!
I have a relative that did Goodwin's financial books back in the early 80's, before the Micky Thompson partnership fiasco. He said Goodwin would make upwards of 1 million dollars from the Anaheim round alone. Although that was the most profitable round, many others made significantly less, and this is many years later....there's still a lot of money floating around in this sport and it seems like most of it is made by people that don't even ride or race.
MR. X
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4/13/2016 2:37pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 2:38pm
I get the feeling that some people don't know what a union is or does.
BAMX
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4/13/2016 2:45pm
MR. X wrote:
I get the feeling that some people don't know what a union is or does.
I am in no way a liberal but in pro sports, you are foolish not to have a union. Look at the situation now. The riders have zero leverage.
731chopper
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4/13/2016 2:47pm
Motoxdoc wrote:
I would answer the question at the end of your post with a resounding, YES! I have a relative that did Goodwin's financial books back in...
I would answer the question at the end of your post with a resounding, YES!
I have a relative that did Goodwin's financial books back in the early 80's, before the Micky Thompson partnership fiasco. He said Goodwin would make upwards of 1 million dollars from the Anaheim round alone. Although that was the most profitable round, many others made significantly less, and this is many years later....there's still a lot of money floating around in this sport and it seems like most of it is made by people that don't even ride or race.
That's awesome. I'm a numbers guy and would love to see what the real numbers are.
kkawboy14
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4/13/2016 2:54pm
Question : is feld still paying to have the races aired?
No they are getting paid and are getting all the sponsorship money's. They used to use the sponsorship money to put it on tv.
oldandslow1
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4/13/2016 3:43pm
Lots of jobs in the world, if the riders are unhappy with what they make I suggest they gain a skill that will land a job that meets their basic needs. Nobody is entitled to shit, if you want it go get it. If you want to race dirt bikes for a few years and have the time of your life even if your broke that's cool too.
JustMX
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4/13/2016 3:59pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
When the FIM and the AMA battled it out, the riders got a big pay increase to go with FIM...... Nobody had seen their books! After...
When the FIM and the AMA battled it out, the riders got a big pay increase to go with FIM......

Nobody had seen their books!

After looking at the books, Feld paid 100s of millions of dollars for sx and has steadily made sx more profitable.....


And I didn't advocate a riders Union for the riders just to get more money. They are already making a lot more money with FIM and now that Feld has taken over! I would advocate a union so that they become a partner!
100's of million?????
Moto_Geek
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4/13/2016 4:04pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2016 4:09pm



Matthes
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4/13/2016 4:13pm
There absolutely should be a riders "committee" or an organized group of team owners discussing (and maybe fighting) for things from Feld and MX Sports. There's similar groups in NASCAR, F1, CART, etc, etc. It would benefit everyone.

There's plenty of money being made by Feld, they bought SX and Monster Trucks for 200 million. You don't do that if something doesn't make money and a lot of it.

BUT the riders and teams have NEVER shown much inclination to form a group to help themselves so not sure why we, as fans and media, should care about it. You can only help those that want to help themselves.

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